Request to ease conditions for combos

The idea that particular weapon skills have added effects from positioning yourself around an enemy is a wonderful idea and it should remain in the game. It keeps the character moving around in order to utilise the full range of effects from their class, and in turn keeps the battle interesting.

The only problem I've seen is missing combos due to lag and/or enemies moving around. One of the reasons melee classes aren't being considered for the Good King Moggle Mog fight is the fact that it's diffuclt to tell which way small enemies are facing, hard to coordinate around moving enemies, and difficult to deal with lag issues. Combos by melee classes are regularly missed and thus their damage potential is dropped off a lot compared to Archer, whos conditions for combos are far easier.

My request to the dev team is that combos be able to be performed from any side, however the effects of the weapon skills, such as increased crit rate, increased damage etc., remain optional to moving around and positioning yourself at a particular side. This will allow combos to always be completed - and really, during the implementation was it not expected that people would combo successfully each attempt. I don't believe the dev. team expected players to miss say an average of ~10% of combos, thus regulating damage somewhat.

I hope people can see this the same way I do, a simple change to this system will remove the irritation of missing a combo, and increase the fluidity of battle.

The OP is absolutely correct. Although positioning for additional effects on weapon skills is a great mechanic, the same positioning should have never been a requirement for progression through a combo. Combos are already restrictive enough, removing almost all choice in execution. The positioning requirements took it beyond too far. Now not only are we forced into a very limited set of combos, we also have to be lucky enough that we are in the correct position, and what we think is the correct position may be something completely different to the server.

Last I checked removing choice is one of those things that really pisses off the playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

No, you GTFO. The OP is absolutely correct. Although positioning for additional effects on weapon skills is a great mechanic, the same positioning should have never been a requirement for progression through a combo. Combos are already restrictive enough, removing almost all choice in execution. The positioning requirements took it beyond too far. Now not only are we forced into a very limited set of combos, we also have to be lucky enough that we are in the correct position, and what we think is the correct position may be something completely different to the server.

Last I checked removing choice is one of those things that really pisses off the playerbase.

---

Hold your horses, good sir. The sarcasm on that post went right over your head.

As for Mr Buddhsie, valid point. I agree that combos should go through with only combo bonuses having to be fulfilled, while positioning bonuses remain as just that: extra bonuses. As such, performing combos from the right directions will still be encouraged, however every DoW besides ARC won't constantly be wasting TP and losing DPS due to lag, small monsters whose rears cannot be told apart from their faces, and retarded movement patterns.

Hey, I'd be fine if even the combo bonuses did not activate unless you got the positioning right - so long as we can actually still combo and not waste TP.

combos arnt meant to work 100% the time. I haven't had a prob using combos and rarely miss one. Dont see the need in making it easier.

the only thing i think they should do is increase damage a little bit, i think they nerfed it too much to try and balance for combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

combos arnt meant to work 100% the time. I haven't had a prob using combos and rarely miss one. Dont see the need in making it easier.

the only thing i think they should do is increase damage a little bit, i think they nerfed it too much to try and balance for combos.

---

TP gain and cost were balanced to account for combos - so they were meant to work 100% of the time. The conditions were put there for more dynamic fighting and bonuses to strategic positioning to further divert from gameplay that involves simply staying still and hitting.

Either they should ease up on TP costs for non-ARC DoW, increase the damage output of non-ARC DoW, or preferably keep the classes balanced and allow for a tad less restriction on combos. The incentive to combo in position will still be there for pretty much all Weaponskills due to their bonuses anyway, but it will make more content accessible by other DoWs. Biggest reason ARC is preferred for Moogle right now is because they are the only DoW that can combo without fail despite the unpredictable movements of the Moogles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

TP gain and cost were balanced to account for combos - so they were meant to work 100% of the time. The conditions were put there for more dynamic fighting and bonuses to strategic positioning to further divert from gameplay that involves simply staying still and hitting.

Either they should ease up on TP costs for non-ARC DoW, increase the damage output of non-ARC DoW, or preferably keep the classes balanced and allow for a tad less restriction on combos. The incentive to combo in position will still be there for pretty much all Weaponskills due to their bonuses anyway, but it will make more content accessible by other DoWs. Biggest reason ARC is preferred for Moogle right now is because they are the only DoW that can combo without fail despite the unpredictable movements of the Moogles.

---

nobody can execute a combo 100% of the time, so your wrong. that is all.

except classes that dont have positioning.

since archers can execute without fail i think that DD classes should get an increase in damage to make up for missing combos. This will allow the better player DD more then average by executing more then average amount of combos. this is my opinion, i really dont care what they do, its a new system that obviously needs balancing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

nobody can execute a combo 100% of the time, so your wrong. that is all.

---

lol... Do you understand what I'm saying? Anybody can execute a combo 100% of the time. It is theoretically possible by design. Combos don't have a proc chance or something. If you hit from the designated positions, they work. Simple as that. There is also ample time between each WS to re-position.

The reason they don't work 100% of the time in practice is mainly due to lag causing you to end up hitting from one position whereas on screen it looked like another.

If you read my post, I did actually bring up buffing GLA, PGL, MRD and LNC damage as a possible way to balance this so that combos become a big bonus rather than something expected of you to keep up. However, I feel that would encourage reverting to the old stand in one spot and spam attacks playstyle for most fights.

Making it so DoW can string combos strictly based on the Weaponskills connecting, however so that they only receive the combo bonuses when executed from the right positions as well would not only maintain the current DPS balance between classes, but still encourage the dynamic playstyle combos are so obviously promoting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol... Do you understand what I'm saying? Anybody can execute a combo 100% of the time. It is theoretically possible by design. Combos don't have a proc chance or something. If you hit from the designated positions, they work. Simple as that. There is also ample time between each WS to re-position.

The reason they don't work 100% of the time in practice is mainly due to lag causing you to end up hitting from one position whereas on screen it looked like another.

If you read my post, I did actually bring up buffing GLA, PGL, MRD and LNC damage as a possible way to balance this so that combos become a big bonus more so that something expected of you to keep up. However, I feel that would encourage reverting to the old stand in one spot and spam attacks playstyle for most fights.

Making it so DoW can string combos strictly based on the Weaponskills connecting, however so that they only receive the combo bonuses when executed from the right positions as well would not only maintain the current DPS balance between classes, but still encourage the dynamic playstyle combos are so obviously promoting.

---

honestly i wouldn't mind either way. It needs to be balanced. DD needs to be able to do more damage, and pug needs something to make them more useful(perhaps a ranged attack that stuns)

pre 1.20 my riot blade hit ifrit for 450, now it hits for 125. 2 of the glad combos are real easy since they are from the front. The one that increases defense requires you to strike to the rear.

and the reason i say now one can execute combos 100% of the time is 2 reasons 1, user error, 2 if you have hate and are required to attack from the side unless, you successfully stun the enemy some how there is a high chance of failure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

honestly i wouldn't mind either way. It needs to be balanced. DD needs to be able to do more damage, and pug needs something to make them more useful(perhaps a ranged attack that stuns)

pre 1.20 my riot blade hit ifrit for 450, now it hits for 125. 2 of the glad combos are real easy since they are from the front. The one that increases defense requires you to strike to the rear.

and the reason i say now one can execute combos 100% of the time is 2 reasons 1, user error, 2 if you have hate and are required to attack from the side unless, you successfully stun the enemy some how there is a high chance of failure.

---

User error is something that is always there, and is beside the point.

I regularly do all my combos when solo on any class - front, rear, side. They are all very much possible. It simply requires that you are not locked on to your enemy, simply have them targeted. You can then easily dash to either of their sides or dash right through them to get to their rear and quickly hit the next WS before they have time to react. Timing it between their auto attacks and skills helps, as they stand still during those times.

The problem is during hectic content, like the Moogle, and the restrictive content like the NMs before the Moogle being among those sensitive trees. In one, the mob is unpredictable and difficult to maneuver around, and in the other you aren't even allowed to move when your weapon is out or you get an apple to the head for 9999.

It wouldn't be so much of an issue if there didn't exist a class that gets to do combos without positioning requirements for the same DPS ceiling, but considering giving ARC combos positioning requirements would be very counter-productive to the nature of the class what's left is to preferably remove the positioning requirement for combos and leave them as simply bonuses. Just for TP efficiency. A lot of the close-range DoW have bonuses like increased damage, or increased crit rate for combo AND position bonuses - so there will still be very good reason to be doing combos in position every single time you can. It will just prevent ARCs from becoming the DD that gets stacked in every content where positioning is made difficult.

Besides, like I said the DPS ceilings of all the classes are quite balanced right now. I rather they didn't mess with damage output values of the classes any further and risk screwing that up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

nobody can execute a combo 100% of the time, so your wrong. that is all.

except classes that dont have positioning.

since archers can execute without fail i think that DD classes should get an increase in damage to make up for missing combos. This will allow the better player DD more then average by executing more then average amount of combos. this is my opinion, i really dont care what they do, its a new system that obviously needs balancing.

---

I covered that in the OP; the fact that during party play ARC is able to combo every single time successfully and melee classes regularly miss is not balanced. In a perfect server with no lag in theory it should be possible to land your combos every time, however we don't have that luxury here.

Again I don't think the combo system was implemented with the idea that missing a percentage of them would balance the classes.

Edit: I'm simply offering a nice, easy solution to the problem. ;)

learn to play... seriously. Other groups are doing the combos just fine. So its not the game, its you.

position requirements arent too restrictive. It should be possible to screw up the combo, otherwise all you got in the update was a damage boost instead of a combat system.

The only reason that archers do not have positional requirements is due to the radial distance between them and the target would cause them to run very far to get into the proper position with the risk of an enemy turning, or dieing before they could get there. Unless your silly enough to be locked on a target, melees do not have this issue. they can get to the correct side in a second or less.

Shoot, even while tanking on Glad I can pull off the combo that starts from behind without turning a mob... solo.

I am sorry if you are having issues, but the problem isnt the battle system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WillRiker

learn to play... seriously. Other groups are doing the combos just fine. So its not the game, its you.

position requirements arent too restrictive. It should be possible to screw up the combo, otherwise all you got in the update was a damage boost instead of a combat system.

The only reason that archers do not have positional requirements is due to the radial distance between them and the target would cause them to run very far to get into the proper position with the risk of an enemy turning, or dieing before they could get there. Unless your silly enough to be locked on a target, melees do not have this issue. they can get to the correct side in a second or less.

Shoot, even while tanking on Glad I can pull off the combo that starts from behind without turning a mob... solo.

I am sorry if you are having issues, but the problem isnt the battle system.

---

Learn to play? Seriously?

No need to regurgitate what i already said in a post of mine in this thread in an attempt to argue against what is being suggested with something as ignorant as learn to play.

Server lag as well as hectic content makes it undesirably inconsistent and difficult and at no extra reward to ARC DPS. I already stated that I understand why ARC doesn't have positional bonuses. The point is there is no extra gain for the extra trouble melee DPS have to go through for their combos.

There really is no downside to the proposed idea - it only serves to make sure DPS isn't lost because of wasting TP. Maximizing DPS even further, and/or obtaining bonus effects would still require positioning.

so, you need it to be even easier. Got it.

If anything, i want more complexity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WillRiker

so, you need it to be even easier. Got it.

If anything, i want more complexity.

---

Yup. You got it buddy. Totally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WillRiker

learn to play... seriously. Other groups are doing the combos just fine. So its not the game, its you.

position requirements arent too restrictive. It should be possible to screw up the combo, otherwise all you got in the update was a damage boost instead of a combat system.

The only reason that archers do not have positional requirements is due to the radial distance between them and the target would cause them to run very far to get into the proper position with the risk of an enemy turning, or dieing before they could get there. Unless your silly enough to be locked on a target, melees do not have this issue. they can get to the correct side in a second or less.

Shoot, even while tanking on Glad I can pull off the combo that starts from behind without turning a mob... solo.

I am sorry if you are having issues, but the problem isnt the battle system.

---

I can guarantee you you aren't as good at combo positioning as I am. That being said I think this issue needs to be addressed for the sake of class balance between melees and Archers. The example being the moogle fight - in which Archer is the preferred damage dealer class was already tackled. The same thing also applies to large groups within strongholds, particularly concerning MRD combo Path of the Storm -> Whirlwind. This being missed by even a single MRD can result in a group wipe.

My point is the intention of the devs was not to let lag or enemy movement come between players completing combos, and I simply proposed an idea that would remove the problem. Please keep your arrogance and critical comments out of the discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buddhsie

My point is the intention of the devs was not to let lag or enemy movement come between players completing combos, and I simply proposed an idea that would remove the problem. Please keep your arrogance and critical comments out of the discussion.

---

For the first part, I wholeheartedly agree, for the reasons you and NoctisUmbra stated (and I normally don't agree with him). The position update latency that has been documented on numerous occasions rears its ugly head for these combos. This is not a "lrn2play" issue as the previous poster you were replying to so "eloquently" stated - it's an issue with how the client-server relationship deals with position updates - something we have little control over.

+1 to getting this fixed up - and I think there was another thread requesting this too.

SE stated that would be addressed with the server update. Again, its not a problem with the battle system. Once again, learn to play around it. If you wait a split second before popping off your ws after moving, it'll go off correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WillRiker

SE stated that would be addressed with the server update. Again, its not a problem with the battle system. Once again, learn to play around it. If you wait a split second before popping off your ws after moving, it'll go off correctly.

---

So funny how you think this is somehow about us not being able to pull off combos. Read every post in this thread if you haven't. If you have, then read them again. Then again. Just keep going until you finally have that eureka moment and realize how misplaced your arrogant remarks are.

My only problem with the Combo system is that it does not tell you what number the combo is. Case in point.

I am a ARC, THM and CONJ. I have been using Heavy Shot, Leaden Arrow, and Wide Volley. Now I am to assume that Heavy Shot is WS#1, LA #3 and WV #4, but I dont see the 25% HP Reduction for 1 > 3> 4. So I tried PA, GA, Bloodletter and still dont see it.

I was there was a vid made by the devs to explain this or they numbered the WS. The lighting up of the next WS and anima is great.

I will admit that I been wrecking shop with my two sets, but no one seems to believe in the combo system yet. Kinda like WS > SC in 11. People just spam WS. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WillRiker

SE stated that would be addressed with the server update. Again, its not a problem with the battle system. Once again, learn to play around it. If you wait a split second before popping off your ws after moving, it'll go off correctly.

---

Doesn't always work, chief. Especially when the target is also moving.

I don't think the dev team has a natural instinct for streamlining FFXIV, the only elements that are streamlined are either, over streamlined (the anima system) or stolen from wow (instant mounts). MMO's are hard to design for because the community has the end all say if the game is fun or not, if the community isn't willing to sit down and use the enmity system to ensure everyone doing max damage then its not going to happen and the developers need to abandon it immediately.
I think they should just scrap left and right bonuses to be honest since that way they can still keep the back attack weapon skills vital to have a tank without sacrificing unrealistic expectations of perfect tanking...

I definitely agree with you there, Gladiator should have ALL their extra skill effects trigger from frontal attacks - it only makes sense that way.

Some valid points are being made, it will be nice to see a response about this sometime after the holiday break.

I enjoy having to move around to pull off combos. Solo combat has been quite fun since 1.20.

the only prob i have at this point is how archers arnt as limited. It makes them overpowerd. And im not complaining, i will finally give in and just lvl archer, it was meant to be a suppose.

our LS defeated moogle with no raise mechanic, 3 mage, 1 glad, 1 archer, 1 mrd, 2 lnc. so it can be done. But the one archer still did about 10k more dame cause they can pull off combos from just about anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

the only prob i have at this point is how archers arnt as limited. It makes them overpowerd. And im not complaining, i will finally give in and just lvl archer, it was meant to be a suppose.

our LS defeated moogle with no raise mechanic, 3 mage, 1 glad, 1 archer, 1 mrd, 2 lnc. so it can be done. But the one archer still did about 10k more dame cause they can pull off combos from just about anywhere.

---

I agree, Archers have too many advantages as it stands. They shouldn't have close range AoE immunity and be able to combo endlessly because their combo requirements are basically nothing. If the argument is made that "they pay for their damage" well that's fine, charge my Lancer for damage and I'll gladly pay.

I like the combo system and I think it was a necessary implementation, but the directional requirements don't work well with the current server structure when engaged in high movement fights.

At least I'm glad your LS did the moogle primal against the grain, make a video please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fated

I agree, Archers have too many advantages as it stands. They shouldn't have close range AoE immunity and be able to combo endlessly because their combo requirements are basically nothing. If the argument is made that "they pay for their damage" well that's fine, charge my Lancer for damage and I'll gladly pay.

I like the combo system and I think it was a necessary implementation, but the directional requirements don't work well with the current server structure when engaged in high movement fights.

At least I'm glad your LS did the moogle primal against the grain, make a video please.

---

i didnt realize that everyone was still using archer setup or i would have. ill have someone fraps it next time we have a unique party structure(which is most of the time but not every time, really just depends whos available) Its def not the fastest win though, we are usually down to the last min zerging the glad. One time we killed the glad(got xp) but the clock ran out, that sucked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i didnt realize that everyone was still using archer setup or i would have. ill have someone fraps it next time we have a unique party structure(which is most of the time but not every time, really just depends whos available) Its def not the fastest win though, we are usually down to the last min zerging the glad. One time we killed the glad(got xp) but the clock ran out, that sucked.

---

Ouch lol.. Yeah, we usually ran with 5 ARCs and it was cake, any other class just doesn't compare if they don't land all combos. If they did I suspect ARC would be outdamaged quite convincingly, balanced by the fact that they can stand out of AoE range to fight. Seems like that's the way it should be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by normalforce

I enjoy having to move around to pull off combos. Solo combat has been quite fun since 1.20.

---

LOL yeah some fun! Its annoying and it sucks. Take the position bonuses off leave the combos from any position! This is supposed to be a game and all this stress over positioning ruins my immersion XDD. I wanna sit there and do kewl flashy combos over and over again till the mob is mush.

Have you ever tried to land a simian thrash combo with another pgl in the party and a gla trying to land riot blade as well....

NOT FUN!!! This whole position crap needs to be scrapped in its entirety and just leave the regular combos with slight combo bonuses with each WS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XStruckX

I wanna sit there and do kewl flashy combos over and over again till the mob is mush.

---

I can't tell if you're serious...

Quote:

---

Have you ever tried to land a simian thrash combo with another pgl in the party and a gla trying to land riot blade as well....

---

Most of the time my GLAs stay pretty stationary so everyone else can combo. How exactly does the tank get behind a mob, anyway? Just run around it in circles and hope the server thinks you're "behind?" o.0

I like having to move around. It's a lot more entertaining than... well, sitting there doing kewl flashy combos over and over again till the mob is mush? Admittedly it takes some amount of skill and concentration, certainly beyond watching TV while pressing buttons in the right order, but I don't think that's such a terrible thing. >.>;

I'd rather they fix the way your position is relayed to the client as well as the lag/latency
And then combo conditions become a lot less of an issue

I've noticed one true fact...
Many people don't want the game to be easier... and get upset when it is even suggested
But....
NO ONE gets upset over fixing latency/lag issues... even if it indirectly makes the game easier
That's because it DIRECTLY makes the game BETTER

Four game fixes that would make leveling great:

1) Increase lvl cap to 100

2) Make monster battles difficult so people will have a reason to need combos

3) Cross Class Combos (aka Weaponskill chains a la FFXI) so that people have a reason to incorporate different classes into a party and execute combos in a specific order = complexity and strategy

4) Remove MP cost on Mage combos in the same way TP is void for War classes ..............or not

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsume

Four game fixes that would make leveling great:

---

Look at you being productive

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsume

1) Increase lvl cap to 100

---

In due time, my son...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsume

2) Make monster battles difficult so people will have a reason to need combos

---

Yes... I agree wholeheartedly. My personal opinion is that the best most efficient EXP party should give no more than 25k an hour... 25k an hour should be like the holy grail of EXP
A PL shouldn't give you more than 15-20k an hour
and solo should be 5-10k or so....
but that would require a lot of QA testing to make sure people are able to get that but not more in every grind camp with every possible class combination... and as we've seen... SE is not too keen on using competent QA testers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsume

3) Cross Class Combos (aka Weaponskill chains a la FFXI) so that people have a reason to incorporate different classes into a party and execute combos in a specific order = complexity and strategy

---

You want them to incorporate combos into the new battle regimen system... I support that completely

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsume

4) Remove MP cost on Mage combos in the same way TP is void for War classes ..............or not

---

The Dev response was no because "You start the fight with full MP and Empty TP"
and it's kind of true.... Thaum would be OP if that were the case
Also you can perform a full Thunder or Fire Combo with your MP full... and with your abilities... still have a sizable amount of MP left
For Melee classes... there isn't enough TP to do a full combo... A 3 hit combo can take 6000 TP if the costs weren't waived.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

I'd rather they fix the way your position is relayed to the client as well as the lag/latency
And then combo conditions become a lot less of an issue

---

There was a post from YoshiP saying that it's possible to synch server and client so that damage and positioning are synchronized with the animation. The code is currently present in the client but was commented out due to QC reporting combat felt laggier and more stressful. He was asking if we really want to try it and despite a pretty big thread stating we want to give it a try it kinda died out and nothing ever happened.

My guess is that the JP players either didn't want it or didn't care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soukyuu

There was a post from YoshiP saying that it's possible to synch server and client so that damage and positioning are synchronized with the animation. The code is currently present in the client but was commented out due to QC reporting combat felt laggier and more stressful. He was asking if we really want to try it and despite a pretty big thread stating we want to give it a try it kinda died out and nothing ever happened.

My guess is that the JP players either didn't want it or didn't care.

---

Well the way I took that (And I could definitely be wrong) was the chat log shows the action immediately... but the visual representation is always 2 seconds behind.... So I think he was saying they could intentionally lag the actions and subsequently the chat log so they match up with the visual representation of whats going on...
But that doesn't sound better... in fact it sounds worse... at least now we can use the chat log to know whats going on right away.