I think the easiest way to help MCH out would be to ensure that they have at least a guaranteed combo that always increases potency like most classes. Then have the ammunition be an aspected type of dmg that is bonus on top of the dmg there. You could choose the aspect of the ammunition to fit the need of the fight. The bonus dmg would have to be a fair bit imo plus have the aspected ammunition provide some utility of some sort based on the aspect.
Just make split shot a 100% chance to increase slug shots dmg which would have a 100% chance to increase clean shots dmg at the very least... The aspected ammunition would give it some great utility that the class is currently missing which is why Bard tends to outshine it a bit.
Idea for MCH
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07-23-2017, 08:17 AMValentenIdea for MCH
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07-23-2017, 10:57 AMAlchemii
I don't agree with this. Part of playing Mch is being able to front load your main GCDs for a Wildfire, and if you make the procs all 100% then that aspect would have to be removed to balance it. It would work just like all the other classes 1-2-3 rotations, which would then take away a part of what makes a mch feel like a mch, and just make it even more boring.
I mean I'll be adding it to the list of ideas, but still don't think it'll work out. -
07-23-2017, 02:50 PMLeticro
I also can't agree because the 50% proc combo is what makes MCH so unique. MCH was way too OP in 3.0, and sure it's nerfed the heck out of now, but I think the combo's fine. Most complaints are that the Overheat mechanic is not engaging enough or has any purpose to even bother with the mechanic. I did the math and overheating can't really be utilized at all so it's kind of just in the way.
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07-23-2017, 05:39 PMValenten
I think the overheat mechanic takes far to long to build up (from my expirience in PoTD) not to mention its far to weak to justify even letting it get overheated. They should probably double the bonus dmg to make it something you look forward to using. The biggest thing for me though is the effects for the class are really minimal which if you compare to almost every other class makes MCH look and feel boring to play. Visuals are a big part of making a class FEEL good least for me. Would you be able to give me an opener by chance since im kinda new to the class?
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07-23-2017, 06:20 PMGreven
Flamethrower should apply a DoT on the enemies it hits lasting the CD of the skill.
The penalty for sacrificing the turret should be halved.
Shorten recast for Cooldown and Barrel Stabilizer.
Either one kind of damage buff on Wildifire or Overheat. -
07-23-2017, 09:03 PMFannahRead yourself again :p There's like something wrong about your "Cooldown" suggestion :p (it's a GCD x) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Greven
About upgrading wildfire or overheat, when you read people, they mean overheat is almost a dps loss or too underwhelming, it will be more logic to upgrade the overheat to encourage people to do so. -
07-23-2017, 09:07 PMMiridori
Either give MCH its own Piercing Debuff when using ammo. Last 15s, next ammo shot refresh the duration :)
Or make Overheat 20%. Hotshot 10%.
Bring MCH personal DPS to RDM level since both kinda fill the same role with similar raid utility -
07-23-2017, 09:39 PMElnidfsei'd like a flat 5% to overhead. That's make me want to use it more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah
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07-23-2017, 10:31 PMElana
Hi,
I am wondering sometimes... Did people even notice that in 4.05, Hot Shot was buffed from 5% to 8% Only. There Is a Reason Why the increase was so small.
As a savage raider, I can tell you that Machinist's DPS can Already beat Bard's DPS (I have myself done 3900 DPS as Machinist without any Dragoon's debuff or AST's balance in Deltascape V1.0 (Savage)).
As for the Overheat; Yes, it is worth it. People just don't do the maths properly. Actually you don't even need to do the maths to see it. Just go hit a SSS Dummy and go overheat. While overheating, all my Wildfire are over 13k with very low crit and I very often get 15k ish.
Cooldown in the meantime, is simply the only skill that can reduce your heat. Slug Shot is Always better...
Believe me or not, Machinist is totally fine right now..
All we miss, is 15seconds to use procs... like Summoner has 30seconds for Ruin IV...
Give me some time and I will be posting a guide for Machinist. -
07-23-2017, 10:54 PMElnidfseThis math, has been done by many different people, of many different languages with little communication between the all of them and have arised to the same conclusion. That it is a (marginal) DPS increase but in general will not be worth it for players that have problems dealing with the post overheat process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elana
They are equal and even when considering proc chance 3 cooldowns are equal to the entirety of your 1-2-3 combo. A moot point regardless, you will either have to use cooldown to stay in heat, or have to use cooldown to do optimal wildfires. If you overheat, you will use 2 cooldowns in that. (theoretically 3 but in reality only 2) Also if you Overheat, you will use no cooldowns before the next wildfire unless the fight gets interrupted. And even if we were to consider this in a void, without ammo you can't ensure a 1 to a 2 to a potential 3 as that's a 25% chance of happening while 3 cooldowns will always be 690. If you count quick reload you have a 190+25+235 of guaranteed damage while 2 cooldowns are 460 damage. Only with a full reload is cooldown beat by your standard rotation. Naturally you're going to be using your ammo regardless so your CD's stay synced.Quote:
Slug Shot is Always better...
I would hope so. You're doing damage with a flat 10% damage boost. My average overheated wildfiresQuote:
While overheating, all my Wildfire are over 13k with very low crit and I very often get 15k ish.
Also the 3% extra damage to hotshot ended up not being enough, apparently.
Nobody is going to argue that your wildfire damage isn't higher in overheat or that you don't do damage in overheat. The point is that your damage tanks when you're cooling down from your overheat.Quote:
Just go hit a SSS Dummy and go overheat. While overheating, all my Wildfire are over 13k with very low crit and I very often get 15k ish.
Far better MCH than myself think to the contrary. If you would like to post solid math and show your logs and rotation I'll happily discuss this with you. I'm not adverse to the idea that I've been doing it wrong the whole time.Quote:
Believe me or not, Machinist is totally fine right now..
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07-23-2017, 11:55 PMXygozI do love when people say things like a class is fine and don't provide any parses, logs or even the math that says its fine. I was half expecting a GIT GUD somewhere in this post lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elana
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07-24-2017, 03:48 AMMomoOGThat's what these "MCH defender" posts ultimately boil down to. People trying to passively/indirectly garner attention for amazing a MCH they think they are :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xygoz
The math has been done. MCH has room to improve to be on equal with other dps. No one cares about anecdotal experiences. -
07-24-2017, 05:53 AMFannah
MomoOG, can we get a link to those maths please? I wish they were linked everytime someone speak about it. I never saw them. I believe you for the final idea, it's just that I wish I could read them to see the problem better by myself.
I just would like those maths to stop being a legend and be here on this official forum. And if they already are, please spread the news. -
07-24-2017, 06:23 AMXygoz
take 10 mins of looking on reddit or these forums and you will find people who have compared overheat to not overheat lol
oh look here is a thread created recently http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-my-findings.
took less then 10 mins to find this one xD -
07-24-2017, 06:44 AMElnidfseRemember this thread talking about rDPS. (which I haven't edit to say that crit isn't like dhit and suffers no DR)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lly-give/page2
There's also Leticro's therad for wildfire theory and the entire thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-my-findings.
and the location where I used to reference my math:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...6%9C%9B/page86
and the relevant image from that thread
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...b7339bb2c9.jpg
Epiher's great thread with gorilla math that got turned into legit math
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...05-MCH-is-Weak
and for giggles we'll toss in aiuri's excellent guide and rotation showcase
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...RkOqjCNw/edit#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEUmppCNpXY
FFLogs aren't showing relevant information right now so as soon as that gets fixed up people can have conversations using voluntary provided. As a temporary stand in here's some information over one week on content I'm pretty sure nobody does anymore that does absolutely nothing to help a narrative but I wanted to post anyways.
http://i.imgur.com/OWbhtuK.png
I mean this is on this website alone. My own spreadsheets are inaccurate as heck and are put together with gorilla glue but I use those for my own reference and don't claim those are gospel. Not when there are plenty of other people who are much better than I that have put their thoughts of the matter down in very easy and accessible ways.
From my own experiences. I can pull decently in savage but my execution sometimes leave a lot to be desired. I parse on the V3S+ dummies constantly for the sake of self reference. That however is useless. What is useful is the dialogue MCH have with each other. If people want to claim math or rotations wrong, they must provide evidence to the contrary. :p -
07-24-2017, 07:24 AMFannah
Xygoz : Well, thank you, but I've already read it (you can even see I've posted in it, was maybe less than one minute to check after finding the post :p ). I've already done the maths myself a while on this forum, before that post, but I know people don't take mine as reference, so of course I don't ask for mines, I'm just looking for the mathematician people believe in.
It would be nice of you to be less condescendant with things like "take 10 min [...] lol" especially when you can't find in 1 min I already posted in this topic (and you should have found the topic you linked me in like 30sec, it's still on the page 1...). I know how to use search function (not even needed to look for a recent 4.05 post). Of course, Reddit is not the answer I'm looking for as I asked for something here on this forum, ignoring reddit on purpose (I like reddit, nothing against it, but it's kinda a chaotic place, every topic at the same place, I dislike the order comments have according to likes, and I would like to don't have to use reddit when we have a great forum here where people not in the game can't post themselves).
By the way, it's very nice of Leti Cro to made what he did, but to make it short, I am not fan of his post. And people talked about maths before him. So I was wondering who is that person.
On top of that, someone else gave me a link to a japanese mathematician (thx again Elnidfse, btw^^) and this guy found a 8 potency difference while I had like 100+ potency. As long as someone don't show me how my maths are wrong, I think I shouldn't give credit to someone who found a smaller result than mine as it means his rotation is less adapted to the overheat system than mine. Except if he proves I'm wrong of course. (and I compared with the best combo both can make)
Edit : Erf Elnidfse, you were too quick to me :p Can't even go take a coffee xD Thx btw for the original topic !
Edit 2 (after reading you) : btw, Eipher even has quoted me in his original post :p So i'm aware of it ^^ I didn't think he was one of the reference of it, he admitted he did no calculation as he was too lazy to really make it x)
I actually had them all, even Aiuri ^^" Just not the original japanese topic and fflog^^" I definitely should start to use it, maybe.
Edit 3 : "If people want to claim math or rotations wrong, they must provide evidence to the contrary. :p " +100 -
07-24-2017, 07:55 AMXygozand your calling me condescending? lol this made me laugh pretty hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah
To be honest I'm just tired of seeing people fighting over what is pretty clear, mch Still needs work from the devs. Instead of these thread devolving into pointless epeen contests Lets talk about what we can fix and change to help the class overall. -
07-24-2017, 08:19 AMFannah
When you are openly offensive to someone, don't expect this person to be nice, don't attack me for being disrespectful when you are not respectful to me without reason.
I never was insulting or condescendant to those other people, because unlike you, I don't come to tell them how dumb they are (while you found a topic in 1rst page in "less than 10min") as I show respect to those people trying to help others. I admit I said it wrong if you think I meant I just look at the result and don't care. I actually meant I still read what they did, how they did it, and that I won't take their results in the end as they are actually lower than mines, so less efficient. And of course if they prove why my calculations are wrong or unpractical in real fights, I will understand and rethink the whole thing. We are talking about maths, not litterature or ideas.
If I give you a rotation and you do a 3200 dps with it, and that you do yours and get 3600 dps, you won't keep mine in mind as it will be irrelevant for you, isn't it? You still won't become condescendant for picking yours.
Edit : There are already tons of topics about how to improve the class overall, don't worry the forum is full of ideas already and you can still keep posting about them, so we can still talk about the overheat and how much it has to be upgraded on other ones. I also am in the side of overheat is not enough/underwhelming, there was no fight, don't try to shift what I'm saying, don't make up stories. I just asked to look at the calculations to see how bad it is according to the community just to know if we talk about the same need of improvement. Which was normal, and you had to come and be like "lol, use search function".
Edit 2 : Btw, I just realize that you just answered me twice, and twice you just looked for being annoying to me for whatever reason, you don't even try to be calm as I'm doing. You look like this guy at high school playing it like "yo mama" just to be right. But maybe you actually are in high school (no offense if it's the case). -
07-24-2017, 10:11 AMXygoz
If I give you a rotation and you do a 3200 dps with it, and that you do yours and get 3600 dps, you won't keep mine in mind as it will irrelevant for you, isn't it?
In a discussion about a class and how viable it is if you are saying you are pushing higher dps then what the majority of people are then it falls on "you" to prove you are truly doing these numbers. So to answer your question no its not irrelevant. When people come into a topic that is trying to improve something and a hand full of people come in and say "As a savage raider, I can tell you that Machinist's DPS can Already beat Bard's DPS (I have myself done 3900 DPS as Machinist without any Dragoon's debuff or AST's balance in Deltascape V1.0 (Savage))." But provide no other info it is pointless. -
07-24-2017, 10:39 AMFannah
Xygoz, I've just reread the post you linked me (don't worry Leti Cro it's not against you) :
1) He changed a 255 potency in 355 for his calculation in the middle of the Wildfire + overheat rotation (see google sheet in D-8).
2) He put 6 GCD in his Wildfire rotation instead of 5. I'm wondering how, and he doesn't speak about his Skill speed and/or technique to explain it and it's not for nothing people speak about the combo "Cooldown-3-2-3-Cooldown" (so only 5 GCD).
3) In K-16 "availible" (I'm kidding I don't mind about it, but if you want to update it Leti Cro, feel free to :p )
4) In D-16 he said Slug Shot + Gauss Barrel + Barrel Stabilizer give a total of 400 potency instead of 200.
5) In H9, numbers with so many decimals like 871,5196875 are irrelevant, it only can make people who dislike numbers but are still interested in the topic to run away. We talk about potency where a single point doesn't change that much, so 871.52 was way enough to still give decimals.
6) He didn't put the Hot Shot multiplier in his calculation, which mislead to see the total potency given by Overheat, but he said he did it on purpose and thought we would just put it ourselves. It's ok to do so, but it's not really helping for average people to get an accurate number as I guess average people won't bother adding the +8% by themselves to see the difference.
7) In D-3, he changed a 190 potency in 390 potency. So I guess he forgot to write he was doing a Gauss Round right before his Split shot, so he should add a note about why he counts it this way in the "Note" part he made.
There might have other mistakes, but you should not hesitate to read a post before sending one with maths errors in it (especially the 6GCD in Wildfire + the 355 potency ones).
Edit :Ah, I didn't say I push so much higher dps that mine is relevant and not others. If you actually read the other topics I reacted to (I'm not saying you should, there is nothing wrong to didn't see them, it's ok), I just said I found like 100+ potency when some like the japanese one found only 8 potency. 100+ is still very small and need improvement. I believe you thought I said it was ok as I think it's not. I'm not either with those saying "once in raid I did XXXX potency higher than the average, so it's actually ok". I agree there are a lot of data to take in count etc. And one person who once did higher than average is nice to know in a way, but I agree it's still irrelevant on an overall balance topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xygoz
About what I think about other have to prove me wrong, I don't mean they have to come to me to speak with me directly as if I mattered especially, I was actually doing a reference about another topic where I gave my results and Elnidfse just gave me his link with the 8 bonus potency without commenting my result at all, like if what I've wrote and calculate was just irrelevant and that I should just stick to another one and forget all of my own calculation to follow one who had a lower result than what I found. Maybe he felt just lazy to compare on the moment, it's ok, but it was still kinda frustrating to got such answer like if he didn't read what I wrote.
Anyway, we agree the machinist needs improvements. Peace. -
07-24-2017, 11:08 AMElnidfseThat comment wasn't for you you silly silly goose. The guy who started this conversation chain stated that everybody's math was wrong and provided no numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah
Edit I realize I spent way too much time adding the rest of this post so I'll just make a new message or something -
07-24-2017, 11:14 AMFannah
I wasn't targeting you either with it this way xD I actually liked what you said as I just wrote something similar in my post just before (well, I was writing and when I sent it, your post was already here so technically you was here before^^"), so yes, I was just really agreeing with you with no irony :) Sorry if you thought so.
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07-25-2017, 05:38 AMGrevenYou're right, the name of the skill confused me!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fannah