Unpopular opinion

Tank balance is fixed. Anyone asking for changes beyond "Shake it off", probably doesn\\'t know what they\\'re talking about. Discuss.

You don't have all 3 tanks 70 to make that statement. Neither do I so I don't say anything, other than I wouldn't mind some more potency buffs or at least Dark Passenger being useful again.

They took out so much and rearranged what was left to the point they're more homogenized than 3.x. So I guess you can call it balance..? Utility is the only outlier I guess.

That's not an opinion, it's just wrong.

You need to ask yourself one question "Why should I bring this tank over this one ?"

As long as you can't give a factual answer to that question for each tank, they won't be balanced.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You need to ask yourself one question "Why should I bring this tank over this one ?"

As long as you can't give a factual answer to that question for each tank, they won't be balanced.

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You're effectively saying balance is impossible, then.

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Originally Posted by bweisnicht

You're effectively saying balance is impossible, then.

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Not impossible, but some design should be changed. The first thing that could be done is creating a synergy between each tanks and different jobs. Imagine if the AoE healing spells of WHM only spread the amount of healing you did to your initial target. Suddenly, WAR would have a great synergy with WHM with the increased healing of Defiance. Imagine if DRK could put a Requiem effect through a third combo, then a caster heavy setup would take that tank as their first choice, etc...

I always thought of WHM as my preferred healer as a Dark Knight for Living Dead + Benediction.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not impossible, but some design should be changed. The first thing that could be done is creating a synergy between each tanks and different jobs. Imagine if the AoE healing spells of WHM only spread the amount of healing you did to your initial target. Suddenly, WAR would have a great synergy with WHM with the increased healing of Defiance. Imagine if DRK could put a Requiem effect through a third combo, then a caster heavy setup would take that tank as their first choice, etc...

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That's just fluff. You also need to keep in mind that we want another tank added, so let's hold off on adding utility. All tanks are viable in this current build.

...We? I don't recall being part of that meeting or saying that I wanted another tank job added.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

All tanks are viable in this current build.

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Viability is not the same as balance.

Honestly, I'd love a detailed explanation for why you think the tanks are balanced.

Dropping an unpopular opinion complete with an insult to those who disagree built in and then not providing a logical backing to said opinion is probably not going to end well.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

That's just fluff. You also need to keep in mind that we want another tank added

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Frankly, after the mess that was 3.x I don't. And it's not fluff, it's actuall tought put into party composition and, for me, the only way to bring balance in a game with so few metrics to compare the jobs.

True balance in this style of game where things like elemental resistances or native damage type resistances don't exist will never see job synergy like the OP explains.

The only true balance that this game can hope for is that the only thing that people have to consider when picking which job in their selected role to play is personal preference.

After clearing the first two savage runs released this week, one with double Warrior, and the other as WAR/DRK, I couldn't help but thinking how much easier things would have been if I was playing as a Paladin. Throughout both fights, I noticed a lot of situations where if I had something like Divine Veil, Cover, or Intervention, we probably wouldn't have wiped.

For Alte Roite, my group was stuck for the longest time on the part where he teleports to one of the edges and knocks everyone back. He then casts Clamp and uses Roar. That Roar kept killing a lot of our players, and I realized if some of them had a little more HP or some damage mitigation, they wouldn't have died.

The same is true for Catastrophe and casting Gravitational Wave right after VERY hard-hitting attacks. Whenever our healers DID survive, they'd be at 2-4k HP tops. And that was because we coordinated Reprisals.

This is the latest content in the game. The thing most up-to-date players are likely attempting. And you can clearly see Paladins are a lot better equipped to deal with it.

So no, I would not call this balanced. We're not asking for the same level of utility as Paladins, but just SOME form of utility would be nice. Not sure what the situation with DRKs are but they also don't seem happy for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Maku

True balance in this style of game where things like elemental resistances or native damage type resistances don't exist will never see job synergy like the OP explains.

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We don't have damage type resistance but we have damage type vulnerabilities. WAR could be the only job to have a slashing debuff, PLD the only job to have a piercing debuff, and DRK the only job to have a magic debuff. This way, you would take the two jobs that better match your four DPS.
And there's MNK...frankly, being the only job to do blunt damage, it doesn't fit in any synergy :(

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

snip.

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Adding to your last remark, yes, Dark Knights aren't happy because many of their skills changed from 3.X. The grumbling would have eventually died away if not for the absolute suck they are to level until they get their super-fun level 68/70 Skills. This makes them the least ideal tank you want to roulette with. Many of their former skills have been plucked away from them while others are borderline useless (Dark Passenger) or are absurdly simple execute. Their only saving grace is their single utility skill which is why they're preferred over Warriors. The fact that they have to rely on so few skills to derive any satisfaction from playing their class is why, in my opinion, they're unbalanced right now.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

So no, I would not call this balanced. We're not asking for the same level of utility as Paladins, but just SOME form of utility would be nice. Not sure what the situation with DRKs are but they also don't seem happy for whatever reason.

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More or less this for Dark Knights too as our mitigation kit got kicked in the gut going into Stormblood for The Blackest Night. Ie. Shadow Wall has a high cd for only 30% vs Paladin's 40% for no real reason (We don't do more damage or block anything better than they do). A general consensus is "give us an inbetween buster's" button. Also make Dark Passenger not suck.

To OP: Before Scholar's were buffed, they were capable of doing all the current content but the difference is that it was a lot harder than say Astro. It's the same with tank balance, for example, Paladin's have more mitigation/self-healing and pump out the same damage as Dark Knights. The latter only has 2 physical mitigation skills outside of role skills. Seems balanced right? (Don't even get me started on blowing 4800 mana for Dark Arts and Dark Passenger, I have that thread up for a reason)

Troll thread is obvious troll thread.

Anyone unironically defending Shake It Off should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Anyone unironically defending Shake It Off should be ignored.

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What ? He specifically says that "change Shake it off" is the only valid complain for him.

Are all tanks viable? Yes. They each do a similar amount of dps and have a similar amount and value of mitigation tools. Each with some flavor.

Are they balanced? Hell no. As long as above applies and PLD is the only tank that brings meaningful utility without any kind of drawback, the tanks are not balanced.

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Originally Posted by Launched

That's not an opinion, it's just wrong.

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+1

/10char

All tanks being viable and being balanced are two totally different things.

WAR's DPS rotation is unduly punishing, DRK's personal mitigation and DPS are undertuned, and PLD has better damage and utility, and provides that better damage and utility with extreme ease in the hands of any skilled player with very little regard for mechanics.

The recent patch did very little to change this.

The other two tanks have to work excessively hard to achieve the same level of DPS and/or survivability that PLD can get by rolling its butt-cheeks across the keyboard.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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AFAIK yoshi P made it so that all tanks can MT and OT.

I scroll down YT for v1,2,3, and 4 savage clears and see PLD/DRK, DRK/WAR, PLD/WAR , and even DRK/PLD comps everywhere.(yeah I know tank swaps are a thing in 2)

Now you propose to buff DRKs mitigation( idk what fight is giving you trouble) and DPS you'll overshadow PLD.(i.e. 3.x)

Buff WAR dps and we're back to WAR as a garunteed Raid slot. (I.e 3.x)

I'll accept QoL for WAR tho as stated in the OP ofc.

I've been waiting for someone to prove me wrong other than
"nah 10/chars"

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

I've been waiting for someone to prove me wrong other than
"nah 10/chars"

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Go read page 2 then, you obviously missed a couple posts.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Now you propose to buff DRKs mitigation( idk what fight is giving you trouble) and DPS you'll overshadow PLD.(i.e. 3.x)

Buff WAR dps and we're back to WAR as a garunteed Raid slot. (I.e 3.x)

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So, what you're saying is, if DRK has defense and DPS increased, it will completely overshadow PLD's massive utility suite to the point that it will be ignored, even though literally no one wants it to be "better" than PLD, just equal?, and that WAR needs to do nearly the same damage as PLD, despite having no utility, or else PLD will be potentially ignored as well?

I find this type of belief bewildering and can only make sense of it by thinking that you, and anyone else who thinks something similar, really don't understand how the toolkits compare to each other and what the differences are.

Not to even speak on the actual application of PLD's advantages in the Omega fights, like in v4.0S where PLD can time its Requiescat window for knockbacks and lose literally no uptime on the boss.

I try not to get into the DPS tank meta and I don't really know anything about dork knight but I really feel for them, from what I've read its like what happened to bard almost in terms of the amount of change (since the start of 4.0 anyway).

My paladin bro is happy with his changes and I'm happy with the war changes but agree with the OP that shake it off needs something... I really do think warrior could use at least 1 utility skill even if somewhat minor but I'm afraid we wont see one till next expansion.

I'm not a hardcore raider so I guess I'm not worried about balance as much as others. Something you need to understand about balancing is that if you sink into the "bring the best with the most" meta, you may never truly enjoy your favorite class in the game because there's always going to be a class that is better than you at something. I think thats what Yoshida was trying to say in that every class would be the same if they maintained a perfect balance.

I remember back in FFXI people came as whatever they wanted to play at the current time for whatever raid tier boss they were doing and no one threw a fuss about anything and just enjoyed each others company and the challenge. I don't think anyone ever even remotely thought about balance in any of the endgame groups I was in... but I wasn't a part of the ffxi forums at any point of time either.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I remember back in FFXI people came as whatever they wanted to play at the current time for whatever raid tier boss they were doing and no one threw a fuss about anything and just enjoyed each others company and the challenge. I don't think anyone ever even remotely thought about balance in any of the endgame groups I was in... but I wasn't a part of the ffxi forums at any point of time either.

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Well, except PLD cause NIN was miles above at tanking and DPS...and except DRG which was crap for a very long time, especially with a garbage 2h skill that could die right away...and except Puppetmaster that no one wanted in groups...
In FFXI the balance was broken and the meta even more.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I remember back in FFXI people came as whatever they wanted to play at the current time for whatever raid tier boss they were doing and no one threw a fuss about anything and just enjoyed each others company and the challenge. I don't think anyone ever even remotely thought about balance in any of the endgame groups I was in... but I wasn't a part of the ffxi forums at any point of time either.

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There's two major reasons for that: XI's balance was all over the place(I'd say that unlike XIV they prioritized unique and interesting job mechanics before balance. This being a good thing or not isn't something I'd bicker about though lol.) and it quite frankly mattered even less than it does here. In XIV, though all classes can hypothetically do content, the strict 4/8 man party sizes(and strict 2/2/8 comps) for doing any nonspecific piece of content introduces an oppourtunity cost to anyone you take. You COULD take a Warrior, or you could take something better- which did exist with XI's 6 man comps but it's not nearly as punishing, and honestly the attitude is more or less the same as long as you stay within leveling content.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Now you propose to buff DRKs mitigation( idk what fight is giving you trouble)

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Nice appeal to ridicule.

DRK can tank everything in the game right now, that much is clear, however, people need to learn that spamming a stoneskin on yourself every 15 seconds does not equate to having a reliable cooldown that can be counted on to smooth out damage outside of tankbusters. Just because it feels clunky and people hate it doesn't mean we can't make it work. It just feels like garbage. WAR still feels like garbage while DPSing, but it didn't stop groups they were in from meeting DPS checks. If the raid tier weren't so crazy easy we might actually see some of these annoyances become real problems.

DRK is best MT. They have faster and more DEF CDS then PLD. Yes PLD sentinal is 40% but the extra 10% isnt needed. Its nice but not needed. 2 minute to 3 minute CD tho is huge. Even tho sheltron now blocks magick its not ment to be used as a primary for tank busters. U use it with sent or ramp yes and u use it to proc shieldswipe. But used by itself ur asking to die or hope ur healer mitigation is on point

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

Yes PLD sentinel is 40% but the extra 10% isnt needed. Its nice but not needed. 2 minute to 3 minute CD tho is huge.

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Shadow Wall is also on a 3 miutes CD. It's really just a weaker Sentinel.

Apologies. Its vengence with the 2 minute CD. But still have shadow wall rampart tbn dark mind. Not a bad mitigation kit. Plus the cross skills. Im just saying there not in as bad a spot as people are saying. Can still use some adjustments but there pretty good.

Then they should lower the cd rate to 2 minutes. I know i would take 30 % over 2 minutes then 40% over 3 minutes. It would be fair to hhaveWAR and DRK 30% AT 2 minutes with PLDs 40% at 3 (even tho 40% isnt needed)

i have all 3 tanks on 70:

my dummy 10min parse result atm:
War 3.1k pld 2.9k drk 2.8k:
Dark still barely keep up whit pld dmg.
drk dps relay on bloodsword + delirum combo so in real fight
Drk dps rotation is 2min pld dps rotation is 1min war dps rotation is 2min.
meaning in actual fight pld will get lesser impact when boss mechanic hits into your burst rotation.
so in real fight its harder to war bring out that dps same go to drk compare to pld.

Utility side Pld is king of utility and i have seen PLD/PLD comps because of it allredy for V4
Drk TBN is good mitigation skill but only come to same lvl as war IB or PLD Shieldron.
Thinking TBN as utility is not realy true.

Defence side DRK is bottom as well because Shadow wall is unnecessarily 3min cd when its weaker version of vengeance that is 2min cd and Sentinel is 3min because extra 10% mitigation that is good when tanking in Sword oath.
LD is still biggest punishing out of 3 tank panic buttons and at end of this raid tier we have around 61k health on tanks so good bless healers who can do 6k HPS to get it off whit 10s.

Useless skill list on tanks atm
War:
Shake it off - we will see change on this.
Drk:
Dark Passenger - u need to be idiot to use it whit mp cost it has.
Sole Survivor - it come close to useful as shake it off it is good when u can use it but it find maybe use in 1 of 4 raid fights and for that it become already in ground where it should find some buff or change.
Unleash - Might as well change it to flash now with potency it has at least it would blind. after lv 56 u can just forget u have that skill atall.
Blood Price - this skill is becoming less and less useful. Only use it has now it to get blood stacks in trash bulls to make Quietus manna gain aoes. and fixing it behind grit after that heavy mp regen nef is unnecessary.
PLD:
Total Eclipse - need enmity increase similar to abyssal drain not as strong as on flash or unleash but still increased on so dps aoe won't rip aggro off you.

Total eclipse isn't useless. It's worse than overpower/abyssal drain, but using 1x flash and spamming total eclipse in shield oath is better than just using flash.

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Originally Posted by Eliroth-Kaminari

i have all 3 tanks on 70:

my dummy 10min parse result atm:
War 3.1k pld 2.9k drk 2.8k:

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So with a SAM or ninja. Pld is identical to the warrior, with better utility and Drk is 100 dps behind, presuming my math is correct.

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

Apologies. Its vengence with the 2 minute CD. But still have shadow wall rampart tbn dark mind. Not a bad mitigation kit. Plus the cross skills. Im just saying there not in as bad a spot as people are saying. Can still use some adjustments but there pretty good.

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Um let me put it like this.

DRK have 1 general purpose defensive cooldown, Shadow Wall on a 3 min cooldown. DRK have 1 Magic Defense cooldown, Dark Mind on a 1 minute cooldown.

That is it for damage reducing defensive until you get to role abilities at which point they get... Rampart.

TBN is merely a health shield, but it does not actually reduce the amount of damage we take, just like WAR's health boosting abilities do not reduce the amount of damage they take. They simply give you more health to take the damage with.

Compared to Paladin where you got Sentinel, Bulwark, Sheltron, and Passage of Arms before you include role abilities.

Throwing in defense from other abilities, DRK gets blind on an expensive AoE ability combo that eats 50% of our MP. Paladin gets Blind on a cheap spammable AoE then there is 2 other inherent CCs to the class in the form of a Stun (Shield Bash, Spammable) and Pacification (skill seal, Shield Swipe with short cooldown).

So when you really look at it, DRK is shafted when it comes to defensives.

It's worth noting that DRK's health shield and WAR's IB do scale with health, so maybe later on these abilities could be seen as much better each tier up than they do now at the beginning.

How does IB scale with health?

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Originally Posted by Alphras

How does IB scale with health?

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I guess s/he meant Thrill of Battle