4.05 - Tenacity Vs Non-Tenacity Builds

Tenacity Build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWT

Non Tenacity Build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWO

Trade off is ~1.5% DPS for 8% Mitigation/selfheals

For PLD, I'd go with the Non-Tenacity build as they already have higher passive mitigation from block, and that build has a lot of SkS which is good for sword oath and Goring Blade Dot.

Also, Tenacity affects our selfheal which mean clemency for PLD, and that's not part of their rotation unlike WAR/DRK.

I'm going Tenacity personally :-)

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Trade off is ~1.5% DPS for 8% Mitigation/selfheals

For PLD, I'd go with the Non-Tenacity build as they already have higher passive mitigation from block, and that build has a lot of SkS which is good for sword oath and Goring Blade Dot.

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I get the way the game works and all but as a tank, even on paladin that's a tough trade off for me to make. Dropping basically permanent reprisal for a tiny, tiny dps increase is hard to settle on. That said you can't really go wrong either way.

The real thoughts behing tenacity is : right now, is it really necessary to have this extra mitigation ?
Once you'll have the 340 set, even O4S should hit less harder.

The next hard content waited is the Super Savage.
So, in others words... the only reason to have a full 340 tenacity set would be that Super Savage will hit so hard that you definitly need it to survive.
Otherwise, it'll be better to increase the values of the dps.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

The real thoughts behing tenacity is : right now, is it really necessary to have this extra mitigation ?
Once you'll have the 340 set, even O4S should hit less harder.

The next hard content waited is the Super Savage.
So, in others words... the only reason to have a full 340 tenacity set would be that Super Savage will hit so hard that you definitly need it to survive.
Otherwise, it'll be better to increase the values of the dps.

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It depends on how high the mitigation gets vs the DPS loss. At some point, the personal DPS loss is made up for via healer DPS from mitigation over an encounter. Tank stances don't do this, but Tenacity MIGHT, it looks like. I'm eager to see where the numbers fall with higher ilvl.

Well if you're gonna look at it that way, I don't think melds will ever be required to complete anything. They're only there as a quality of life so that can make minor tweaks to your character in certain directions. For example, skill speed is seen as being useless, but it's still there for those who might want a 0.2s faster recast over a small increase in critical hit rate.

So any tenacity we'll need will probably be part of our gear anyway. Getting more via melds will be a matter of preference rather than a necessity.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

The real thoughts behing tenacity is : right now, is it really necessary to have this extra mitigation ?
Once you'll have the 340 set, even O4S should hit less harder.

The next hard content waited is the Super Savage.
So, in others words... the only reason to have a full 340 tenacity set would be that Super Savage will hit so hard that you definitly need it to survive.
Otherwise, it'll be better to increase the values of the dps.

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Well it's the utility vs DPS trade off.
The extra mitigation isn't required to clear content but can potentially result if little little bit more mp management from healers or healer dps.

Is both case, I'd say it's negligible and more of a personal choice.
Right or wrong, I like to think that I should be more tanky if it's at the cost of marginal dps.
Also my healers have been pressuring me to go Tenacity :)

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

It depends on how high the mitigation gets vs the DPS loss. At some point, the personal DPS loss is made up for via healer DPS from mitigation over an encounter. Tank stances don't do this, but Tenacity MIGHT, it looks like. I'm eager to see where the numbers fall with higher ilvl.

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Tank have 100% dps uptime on the boss.
Healers don't.
Considerint healers' dps is now "lower" than before (no more cleric with the 10%), I think it should be better for tanks to have this dps increase.
But then again, you have to see first how hard bosses are hitting. Mitigation is one of the strongest thing in this game. Cause thanks to it, you survive. But if you can naturally survive without effort without too much mitigation, then than means it isn't needeed that much.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Well it's the utility vs DPS trade off.
The extra mitigation isn't required to clear content but can potentially result if little little bit more mp management from healers or healer dps.

Is both case, I'd say it's negligible and more of a personal choice.
Right or wrong, I like to think that I should be more tanky if it's at the cost of marginal dps.
Also my healers have been pressuring me to go Tenacity :)

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It depends on the group and the content you're running for.
It's the same for piety for healers. Let's say you're going to a weekly savage clear with your static. The run should be smooth, everyone now what to do and both healers have planned what to heal, you should then need less piety.
However with pugs on df or pf, you never know what happen, you don't know your co-healer, your tank, how's the dps will be... so you might want to have extra piety to be able to raise more if necessary (or heal more).

I think the reasonning behind Tenacity could be the same (somehow).

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Tank have 100% dps uptime on the boss.
Healers don't.
Considerint healers' dps is now "lower" than before (no more cleric with the 10%), I think it should be better for tanks to have this dps increase.
But then again, you have to see first how hard bosses are hitting. Mitigation is one of the strongest thing in this game. Cause thanks to it, you survive. But if you can naturally survive without effort without too much mitigation, then than means it isn't needeed that much.

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The main point is that we're talking about a ludicrously small dps gain. Basically you're trading half a tank stance for an almost unmeasurable dps gain. I do think there comes a point where we're a tad bit too obsessed with dps.

This isn't a obsession with dps, this is just trying to see it from an optimal point of view.
No news when I say, the more dps you have, the less time the encounter will be.

When you talk about mitigation, you have to see the content you're doing and if it's necessary to have.
If you're not taking a huge amount of damage/mitigation isn't that much required)/ healers doesn't have to heal that much (and so on), then you'll somehow just throw theses ressources in dps.

We could take example. Let's say you are doing lvl 70 dungeons with large pulls.
In that case, Tenacity could be really good cause in there, the tank has to mitigate the damage as much as possible.

Let's take an Extreme primal but being overgeared.
Even tank buster shouldn't deal that much damage, then tenacity shouldn't be a thing.

Not saying "dps rules", just "see when and where tenacity could actually be a good choice".
Just like my previous post on piety for healers.

Side note : anyone is however free to meld and choose the gear he feels it's the best for him.
I'm not here to say that's there's only one possible choice and that if you don't take this one, you're bad.
I'm as well wondering things.

And I right now don't know how to position myself with tenacity so.
That's why I want to see more.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Not saying "dps rules", just "see when and where tenacity could actually be a good choice".
Just like my previous post on piety for healers.

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Part of the problem is your examples largely relate to when you're over geared for an encounter. In anything less you're going to have a smaller percentage gain acting on a smaller absolute dps number.

yea i swapped out all my left side dh for tenacity for prog. Will probably stick with tenacity until we start reaching the threshhold where crit becomes king again

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

This isn't a obsession with dps, this is just trying to see it from an optimal point of view.
No news when I say, the more dps you have, the less time the encounter will be.

When you talk about mitigation, you have to see the content you're doing and if it's necessary to have.
If you're not taking a huge amount of damage/mitigation isn't that much required)/ healers doesn't have to heal that much (and so on), then you'll somehow just throw theses ressources in dps.

We could take example. Let's say you are doing lvl 70 dungeons with large pulls.
In that case, Tenacity could be really good cause in there, the tank has to mitigate the damage as much as possible.

Let's take an Extreme primal but being overgeared.
Even tank buster shouldn't deal that much damage, then tenacity shouldn't be a thing.

Not saying "dps rules", just "see when and where tenacity could actually be a good choice".
Just like my previous post on piety for healers.

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Except that even on those "low damage" scenarios, 8% less taken is still 8% less healing required. In any case where 8% or more of the healers on-gcd abilities are heals, and atleast some of them are used to heal the tank, it's going to be almost impossible not to be a net gain on damage (while also making everything "smoother" and being less prone to people screwing up/random crap happening.

The only time it would be a loss is in content so easy that the healers don't need to actively, on-gcd heal the tank at all. At that point, do you really need to optimize to that point? I guess some would say yes, and more power to them, but in reality it seems like a crazy choice not to go tenacity at this point.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

This isn't a obsession with dps, this is just trying to see it from an optimal point of view.

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I would suggest "optimal" only matters when it makes the difference between a clear and not-a-clear. 1.5% dps on a tank is not likely to drive that difference except in the most razor thin situations. This is a situation most of us won't really be in (In my experience, the vast majority of players could stand to worry far less about optimal melds for their DPS and a lot more about how to not stand in fire and maintain uptime) This is not the 2.x strength vs. vit assessories argument where the very substantial DPS gain was a true boon to the party.

Old content, over-geared content, easy content...all essentially irrelevant to discussions of "optimal". If you run Susano EX in 6 months, who cares if your melds are allegedly "optimal"? Nobody.

My only thought on your build is that I was under the impression that you could not overmeld T6 materia, did I misunderstand something along the way?

Also I plan to solve this by going with 2 sets similar to ARR. One set in which I aim for maximum tenacity and then a set of crafted accessories with as much Direct Hit as I can pour into them.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

This isn't a obsession with dps, this is just trying to see it from an optimal point of view.

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You're trying to say that half a constant tank stance with no loss to your personal dps for having it has less impact than the 10-15 points you'd get going for the "optimal" direct hit build.

That's not trying to look at it from an optimal PoV. That's an obsession with dps.

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Originally Posted by Dement

My only thought on your build is that I was under the impression that you could not overmeld T6 materia, did I misunderstand something along the way?

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You can only overmeld one t6 materia. Anymore have to be 5's.

Something I have been thinking about though. Perhaps the math people know better than me but It seems like penta-melded accessories are the way to go. I know they're a pain to make but it looks like you're trading 2 str and less than 10 secondardy stat off the base in the drop from 340 to 320 for 76 of another secondary stat(dh, or tenacity mostly). It seems like that trade favors crafted accessories every time, am I wrong?

All of the comments here are interesting. As a tank, I stepped into Stormblood with a focus on Tenacity. Of course, I'm always questioned why I do it.

In a post some time ago, I noted that healers were having a grand good time doing more dps than healing me. Looks like Holy and Gravity are still beast on the aoe, more than my "Total Eclipse" and "Quietus".

I removed Tenacity and am trying the Direct Hit thing, and I find myself needing that extra healing from Convalescence (I didn't use it much with Tenacity). I don't have access to much Tier 6 Tenacity materia now, but I will be going back to Tenacity, even if I have to meld Tier 5s until I get 6s.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You're trying to say that half a constant tank stance with no loss to your personal dps for having it has less impact than the 10-15 points you'd get going for the "optimal" direct hit build.

That's not trying to look at it from an optimal PoV. That's an obsession with dps.



You can only overmeld one t6 materia. Anymore have to be 5's.

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last expansion, I never saw any Vs overmelded.

I might go for some VIs in slot #2 this time around though because they made them much more accessible early on. I'm already swimming in them. Around 30% for that first meld I can deal with, considering how VIs FAR outclass Vs, unlike Vs vs IV.

So I see a lot of people talking about how X% less damage helps your healers heal you X% less, but they still have to heal you. And in the current savage content, taking roughly, 7% less on an already mitigated (though CD's I would assume) "Critical Hit" from Halicarnasus at about 35k gives you around a 2.3k reduction. Your healer still needs to heal you for 32,700. Your roughly 1400 tenacity saved your healer less than half a GCD worth of healing potency, or a single GCD from the fairy.

In the case of auto attacks and sustained damage, now we're talking about even small value saved. Auto attacks doing 6k per hit, you mitigate 400 damage with a 7% reduction. Over 30 seconds (about 10 auto attacks), you've mitigated 4000 damage of that 60,000. In that same duration, your healer probably has 12 GCDs to spend. Your 1400 tenacity maybe saved your healer an oGCD directly on you, assuming there aren't already HoTs rolling on you or AoE healing being done to the party.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I removed Tenacity and am trying the Direct Hit thing, and I find myself needing that extra healing from Convalescence (I didn't use it much with Tenacity). I don't have access to much Tier 6 Tenacity materia now, but I will be going back to Tenacity, even if I have to meld Tier 5s until I get 6s.

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Convalescence provides you with 20% bonus to healing received. At about 1% per 200 tenacity, you would need 4000 tenacity to reach that level. Although tenacity's effect is always active and convalescence is activated and carries a cooldown. I would choose convalescence if it gave me 4000 worth of a substat to use on something like direct hit. But because of the nature of these two (one being a buff with a cooldown and the other being passive) you're comparing apples to oranges here.

I thought tenacity also helped the healing, 7%, in the example above. So by the math used the healer would only need heal the tank for 29000, versus the 32k plus. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Whats the % of 2000 Tenacity? This is where it starts to get useful right?

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Originally Posted by Felorr

So I see a lot of people talking about how X% less damage helps your healers heal you X% less, but they still have to heal you. And in the current savage content, taking roughly, 7% less on an already mitigated (though CD's I would assume) "Critical Hit" from Halicarnasus at about 35k gives you around a 2.3k reduction. Your healer still needs to heal you for 32,700. Your roughly 1400 tenacity saved your healer less than half a GCD worth of healing potency, or a single GCD from the fairy.

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Now imagine how small a 1.5% dps increase for a tank is.

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Originally Posted by Felorr

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you are not taking into consideration the damage mitigation

you are not mixing the less damage taken + added healing buff

you are ignoring the fact that the difference between tenacity dmg vs critical dmg is insignificant.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Now imagine how small a 1.5% dps increase for a tank is.

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It's like 10-15 points of difference between the optimal build and a full Tenacity build, isn't it?

Aren't we forgetting that Tenacity increase dmg dealt too?

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Originally Posted by Reveriekun

Aren't we forgetting that Tenacity increase dmg dealt too?

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Is it the same % as the damage reduction/heals? (I know nothing of this lol)

The basic understanding that I have is that even if you want to build for ten, you're better off simply gearing for it rather than melding it (i.e. get all the gear that has ten on it and then meld it with other stuff). The gains you see from gearing for it are okay, but the extra from melding is pretty lackluster, and you're far better off continuing to meld DH/Crit, and simply favoring ten on gear. Basically its inefficient to meld but okay to choose gear pieces around.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

The basic understanding that I have is that even if you want to build for ten, you're better off simply gearing for it rather than melding it (i.e. get all the gear that has ten on it and then meld it with other stuff). The gains you see from gearing for it are okay, but the extra from melding is pretty lackluster, and you're far better off continuing to meld DH/Crit, and simply favoring ten on gear. Basically its inefficient to meld but okay to choose gear pieces around.

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Melding or gearng its all the same. Melds just seem weak for tenacity because they are weak for every stat.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Melding or gearng its all the same. Melds just seem weak for tenacity because they are weak for every stat.

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Its not the same because you can't get nearly the kinds of gains through melding that you can by simply wearing a piece of gear that has that stat on it as opposed to not having it. This is why Direct Hit melds are so popular, because we get zero of it from gear, making melding it an extremely efficient % increase. Stacking more Tenacity on top of the crazy amount that you'll already have on your gear just isn't going to be as efficient from a DPS or mitigation standpoint.

A minimum skill speed/maximum tenacity gearset has over 1800 tenacity innately. I'd much rather meld direct hit on that than more tenacity.

Edit: In fact, such a build has more tenacity than any other secondary stat, so it could be argued that you'd get more mileage out of anything else other than more tenacity. Not sure if it was intended or not, but the current tier of gear is swimming in it.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Its not the same because you can't get nearly the kinds of gains through melding that you can by simply wearing a piece of gear that has that stat on it as opposed to not having it. This is why Direct Hit melds are so popular, because we get zero of it from gear, making melding it an extremely efficient % increase. Stacking more Tenacity on top of the crazy amount that you'll already have on your gear just isn't going to be as efficient from a DPS or mitigation standpoint.

A minimum skill speed/maximum tenacity gearset has over 1800 tenacity innately. I'd much rather meld direct hit on that than more tenacity.

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If only SE decides to give DH to tanks and healers gear, we wouldn't need to fully meld DH.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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Eh, cant really argue that much because I've stated in previous posts of my lack of knowledge except say that you can get the gains through melding. On Ariyala I already have a nice setup where I can reach 2k Tenacity on reset this tuesday thanks to melds helping out the gear and keep roughly 700 DH which isnt far from what I currently have with the full DH meld I got going on. I don't mind having 2k Tenacity a just a bit less DH with what my current setup will soon have. So I agree with Dacien, till you can achieve that 1800 you get from the best gear in the game atm, tenacity with a mix of DH is worth it in my book TILL that time where that build is obtained.

Edit: Also why hasn't anyone talked about the damage increase that Tenacity claims to bring along with the other two benefits?

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Originally Posted by Aleisterz

Edit: Also why hasn't anyone talked about the damage increase that Tenacity claims to bring along with the other two benefits?

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Because its bad. If it was better than any other secondary even skill speed in terms of damage, that other secondary would be completely obsolete due to tenacity's additional mitigation effects. Nobody wants Tenacity for damage. And I personally have barely noticed any difference at all between 500 and 1500 tenacity. I personally wouldn't meld any of it because there is already so much of it on your gear that the materia slots you're wasting on it are gaining you probably less than 0.01% mitigation. Its just inefficient use of materia slots.

It just doesn't make sense to meld tenacity when our gear is already swimming in it due to diminishing returns, unless tenacity scales in some crazy special-snowflake way that we aren't privy to.

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Originally Posted by Tufelhunden

I thought tenacity also helped the healing, 7%, in the example above. So by the math used the healer would only need heal the tank for 29000, versus the 32k plus. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

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It only increases Self Heals as of now.
Or, the gained % you get healed more by other players is so miniscule it can't be measured.

OP's numbers are wrong here.

1100 tenacity (the difference between the 2 sets you linked in comparison) does not = "8% damage mitigation"... 1100 Tenacity is exactly 5.5% dmg mitigation, as it's 200 points of tenacity per 1% mitigation.
And it would be at cost of just under 2.5% DPS.

That means, at a very end build, you can either max tenacity for 5.5% dmg mitigation, OR avoid as much Tenacity as possible, and gain just under 2.5% DPS.

Also, SKS does not affect Sword Oath or auto attack speed btw.

if u want alot of tenacity get tenacity gear. Ur melds should be direct hit. And dont forget about crit gear either

So if you want to stack tenacity there are two options imo (ilvl 340 left side, penta melded ilvl 320 right side):

Max tenacity with melds http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11U96
TNC 2022 (7.6%)
DHR 836 (12% = 3% damage)

Max tenacity, but Direct Hit Rate melds http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11U95
TNC 1594 (5.6%)
DHR 1264 (23% = 5.75% damage)

The first tank would take 2.11% less damage while the second tank would deal about 0.76% more.

Edit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tats_compared/

For comparison, a low tenacity build http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11UFB
TNC 870 (2.3%)
DHR 1264 (23% = 5.75% damage)
DET -117
CHR +76
SS +765

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

It only increases Self Heals as of now.
Or, the gained % you get healed more by other players is so miniscule it can't be measured.

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Saw that after I posted. Thank you for clarifying though. :)