Cure v. Cure 2

Cure 2 always generates a lily so can often be followed immediately by DB for more DPS uptime.

Tanks are still pulling like its late HW so their health tends to fluctuate a bit more. Let's not even talk about 270 strength accessories or jump potions.

WHM mp management received (imo) one of the biggest QoL changes in all of SB.

Does anyone else feel like Cure is pointless and Square kinda did that intentionally? I have to TRY to use it now but the minuscule heal seems like a waste. I understand the mp efficency and freecure procs but in terms of maxing GCD use its hard to justify more and more now. At the very least cure and cure 2 have switched places in terms of primary and secondary heals. Or secondary and tertiary if you consider regen.

I find slight use for cure 1 over 2, but probably because I'm used to trying to proc a free cure II from older versions of the game.

But you're right. I find it needlessly fusterating that I am purposefully over curing for these stupid lilies I don't care for to begin with.

Unless you want to constantly overheal and blow through mana for the mediocre effect of lilies go for it. You should still use Cure as always to conserve mana and get the Freecure proc or Cure + Largesse buff if you really need more healing potency. So in short don't be stupid with your mana just because we're in a better spot in the mana department now.

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Originally Posted by Dicejss

So in short don't be stupid with your mana just because we're in a better spot in the mana department now.

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I have yet to OOM on WHM other than in situations where the lower potency of Cure (even with Largresse) would have meant imminent death. Frankly if you're OOM on WHM outside of EX/Omega right now I would ask you what's wrong with you or your party.

Mana sitting there is wasted mana to me. If you know the fight and know you can handle it by rotating LD/Assize why not just do that? Hell, I expected to be using Thin Air for healing as well but at this point I just wait for it to be available with PoM and tell my tank to pull big for a Holy spam.

I don't mean for this to come off rude I just don't see the point of leaving mana unspent when you know nothing is coming that will eat it up. I would argue that to be "stupid" is to not maximize every GCD (and oGCD) that we have in every fight.

Essentially Healers are OhSh-- buttons, when something goes wrong it falls in our lap, melting MP for no reason other than you can makes those moments tightropey. As people outgear thing itll ease up, sure, but melting all your MP still isnt advisable, doing whatever you feel like down to 40% or so, meh w/e current MP management tools can let you do that for the hell of it.

Honestly, with the amount of damage tanks are taking (from my experience) I HAVE to use Cure 2 over Cure 1. I can have Medica 2, Regen, and Asylum up but tanks will still bleed like pregnant cows, either due to standing in stupid or because they aren't popping cooldowns, and Cure just isn't strong enough to get them thru it. Even in those situations, however, I'm not hard pressed for MP at all due to Lucid Dreaming, Assize, Thin Air, the mitigation of Divine Benison and the free heals from PI, Tetra and Benedition all making any dungeon content almost laughably easy. The only situations that I find myself MP starved are in EX where people are screwing up mechanics left and right and I need to rez several times a minute but that's pretty much true of all healers.

Having said that, I still find myself using Cure out of force of habit. I've been playing WHM since 2.X and after years of dealing with MP issues, playing carefully and managing my MP like it's my own child, the habit is cemented into my very soul that I cannot for the life of me break. Sure, I spam cure 2 as the situation demands but even with all the benefits Cure 2 has going for it and the now seemingly bottomless MP of WHM, I can't just stop using Cure either.

In most content, if there was a "healer rotation" at all it would be "alternate between cure 1 and cure 2" unless the tank doesn't use their CD's, then spam regen and cure 2 and hope your healing is a net gain faster than the tanks losses. Given this only happens on large pulls.

The developers clearly designed the content to do single pulls, and as such single pulls should be spot-healable using just Cure 1/Benefic/Psysick. It's the fact that everyone wants to do as large pulls as possible why we're not getting a chance to optimize freecure proc's from Cure 1. The fact that freecure is random is also a problem. It in fact it doesn't even work like the Firestarter proc on BLM, on BLM you'd ALWAYS start with Fire I to get the Fire III proc because that makes the Fire III also an instant cast. Freecure still has cast time. Thus to always start with Cure I just to try and get Freecure isn't practical. When the content becomes more of a faceroll, then you top up the tank with Cure I to avoid overhealing.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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I don't mean for this to come off rude I just don't see the point of leaving mana unspent when you know nothing is coming that will eat it up. I would argue that to be "stupid" is to not maximize every GCD (and oGCD) that we have in every fight.

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It is stupid to cast things just because they are there in a healer role. Most of the toolkit is going to go to waste, yes, but if you waste them, you're affecting the Tank's job as well. The two stupidest things WHM's do:

1) Using Medica II on trash
2) Using Medica II before the party takes damage

Those not only waste MP, but they screw up the Tank's ability to hold hate.

AST's with Diurnal sect Aspected Helios do the same.

The next stupid thing that specifically WHM's do is spam holy. Don't do this. Cast Holy, cast something else while they're stunned, either heal or cast Aero III, then cast Holy again to maximize the stun time. If you can wipe out trash before the stuns wear off, that saves you a lot more healing effort than back-to-back holy.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The developers clearly designed the content to do single pulls, and as such single pulls should be spot-healable using just Cure 1/Benefic/Psysick.

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If the tank does single pulls, often you wouldn't have to heal at all, or just put regen on tank and that covers it, so those aren't really relevant to discussion...

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

They also don't have ilevel requirements for most leveling dungeons.

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Yeah, but if the tank is wearing gear that is relevant to their level, this isn't a relevant issue either. And if the tank isn't, I'll just find another tank... (like yesterday when I had a tank in AV who was wearing level 30 gear left side and level 5 gear right side, I wasn't the healer though, luckily)

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Originally Posted by Taika

If the tank does single pulls, often you wouldn't have to heal at all, or just put regen on tank and that covers it, so those aren't really relevant to discussion...

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They also don't have ilevel requirements for most leveling dungeons.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The two stupidest things WHM's do:

1) Using Medica II on trash
2) Using Medica II before the party takes damage

Those not only waste MP, but they screw up the Tank's ability to hold hate.

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If the tank is having a hard time holding hate, that indicates a few things.
1) He/She over pulled more than they can handle
2) He/She is inexperienced at tanking (Shouldn't happen in later dungeons, but jump pots are a thing so not entirely impossible either)
3) Tank is out of resources to hold aggro. Usually a WAR problem but I've seen bad DRK have a similar problem as well.

As for the Medica 2 before party takes damage, it's mostly for preventative purposes. Take Lakshmi ex, for example. Usually, the Hand of Beauty > Stroham combo can result in DPS dying so the regen between Hand of Beauty and Strolhim casts helps immensely, especially if you don't have any shields for whatever reason (I blame all you AST that insist on using Diurnal vs Noct Sect when paired with a WHM)

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

.The next stupid thing that specifically WHM's do is spam holy. Don't do this. Cast Holy, cast something else while they're stunned, either heal or cast Aero III, then cast Holy again to maximize the stun time. If you can wipe out trash before the stuns wear off, that saves you a lot more healing effort than back-to-back holy.

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This seems counter productive. If the Trash dies before the stuns wear off, both Aero III and the heal are useless because
1) The DoT from Aero 3 is mostly wasted and the flat damage from Holy will trump the little damage that Aero 3 would have done in the same time.
2) There's nothing left to do damage so why waste the MP to Heal, especially since WHM has several oGCD they can weave between Holy that don't need to waste the GCD on a heal.

I actually only use Cure I when I am dangerously close to being OOM, which is rare these days.
The benefits of Cure II are far too great now.

for me, the general rule of thumb is:

target's HP >60% = Cure I
target's HP <60% = Cure II

but yeah Cure I is basically for mana conservation and for topping people off, it's the mana-efficient heal for use outside of emergencies

For really large pulls in dungeons such as Doma Castle, I rarely use Cure I at all. The amount of incoming damage is usually more than the amount Cure I provides. Cure II uses more MP than Cure I, but it frees up more GCDs. Better to use Cure II when there are 20+ mobs slapping your tank around. Cure II also gives you Lilly procs for Divine Benison and Planetary Indulgence. WHM has a lot raw heal throughput with oGCD abilities like Tetra, Assize, Asylum, and Benediction. Largress and Regen is really helpful as well.

WHM gets Aero III and Holy so you can be spending the majority of your time damage dealing trash mobs. Stone IV and Aero II are also good to use if you want to conserve MP when it is not worth using Holy. WHM MP is pretty darn good with Lucid Dreaming, Assize, and Thin Air.

It really depends on how much you value MP efficiency.

In truth, Cure II has always had a place since it lets you get back to DPSing faster, even if the raw incoming damage doesn't require it.

On the flipside, if you've had some rezzes go out and raid wide damage has left your MP on a downward trend, it might be better to go back to Cure I spamming for a bit.

What's Cure I?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

If the tank is having a hard time holding hate, that indicates a few things.
1) He/She over pulled more than they can handle
2) He/She is inexperienced at tanking (Shouldn't happen in later dungeons, but jump pots are a thing so not entirely impossible either)
3) Tank is out of resources to hold aggro. Usually a WAR problem but I've seen bad DRK have a similar problem as well.

As for the Medica 2 before party takes damage, it's mostly for preventative purposes. Take Lakshmi ex, for example. Usually, the Hand of Beauty > Stroham combo can result in DPS dying so the regen between Hand of Beauty and Strolhim casts helps immensely, especially if you don't have any shields for whatever reason (I blame all you AST that insist on using Diurnal vs Noct Sect when paired with a WHM)

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So you waste the actual Heal it provides in favor of a 50 potency regen that heals nothing before any damage is taken. Waste.

You time Medica II for when you see party/raid-wide damage coming in 3 seconds, not before the damage lands.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

This seems counter productive. If the Trash dies before the stuns wear off, both Aero III and the heal are useless because
1) The DoT from Aero 3 is mostly wasted and the flat damage from Holy will trump the little damage that Aero 3 would have done in the same time.
2) There's nothing left to do damage so why waste the MP to Heal, especially since WHM has several oGCD they can weave between Holy that don't need to waste the GCD on a heal.

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How long does it take to clear trash in Baelsar's Wall? Castrum Abania? Kugane Castle? Ala Mhigo?

In most cases, trash dies before there is time to cast Holy a second time, except the current level 70 content. So in most cases I don't even bother, either I cast Holy first before doing anything else, or I don't cast it at all. You're supposed to cast Holy for the stun time because it's the only AOE stun that can be spammed. Celestial Opposition is an instant cast but has a longer recast time. Gravity+Celestial Opposition = single Holy cast. But AST's are more likely going to use that after they've thrown other buffs on. Do you have time to setup buffs on trash? Not really.

Where the fun gets sucked out of this game is when people do things in the laziest fashion possible. You're supposed to use Cure 1 on tanks that have lost less than half their HP, and Cure 2 when they've lost more than half, but depending on their gear and your gear, your Cure 2 can either heal them for 60% or for 20%. If a tank is not using their cooldowns, you may spam as many Cure 2's as you want but they are taking larger hits than your cure 2 recovers.

It's bad practice to just do things because the button is there. A Healer is not a DPS, nothing is being wasted by not casting it until you need it or it's most efficient to use it. At level 52+ and later you may as well use Assize either when 10% of your MP is gone or 20% of the party's HP is gone (It's a free instant-cast Medica used once.) Using it for damage right at the pull is silly but the net damage is more powerful than hitting every mob with stone IV, so the larger pull, the more net damage. You never get a chance to use Assize twice on a trash pull, and rarely on a boss mob. Hence using Holy+Assize gives you more bang than Holy spam, every time.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

What's Cure I?

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The first tier cure spell; a cheaper and more efficient alternative to Cure II, but with less raw potency per GCD. Also the first healing spell new Conjurers well acquire.

Reading through these responses I feel like either the people responding haven't played 4.x WHM or at least haven't done it regularly. We are not in the mana desert of 3.x anymore, nor are we playing dungeons that we outlevel by 60+ ilvls.

Things hit harder, you can either spend an extra GCD casting cure 1 or use that for some damage, given that choice why would you ever pick no damage?

I am not advocating for blind runs of new content using Cure 2 (though this is largely what I did for everything past the first boss in Sirensong) but in content you know and especially with groups you know I feel like there is literally zero reason to not just stick to Cure 2.

Can it be overhealing? Yes, but we can afford that and if your tank is anywhere close to decent that overheal will not be ripping aggro even if it crits. If it does then twelve help him once you Aero3+Assize+PoM/ThinAir/Holy spam.

And in response to whoever said Holy shouldn't be spammed you should reevaluate the way you view the spell. It is huge AoE damage with the added bonus of a stun, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Hence using Holy+Assize gives you more bang than Holy spam, every time.

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Or I mean....You know....You can use Assize+ Holy, and then move on to Holy spam like every competent WHM does.

Hahahaha... don't holy spam... we have been holy spamming since 2.0 (probably longer... only been playing since 2.0 beta)... it's a good aoe damage with a stun... its like telling a AST to not use gravity... or BLM to not Flare... they are our best aoe damage... it's just easier for us to spam now without running our MP dry....

And as far as cure I vs cure II... base it off the situation...
big pulls... probably will need cure II... or cure I with regens (depending if the tank is good and use cooldowns)
small pulls... cure I...

And with the increased Emnity... unless the tank isn't using its aoe aggro spam they shouldn't have any issue holding things... but there's always that special snowflake...

Guess that's a old habit from the old WHM so I still use Cure when I don't need big heal.
But it is true that now that mana isn't a problem anymore and CureII have 100% to proc lilies, it could be better to use it instead.

I never liked to use Cure II or Benefic II except if damages on the tanks are really heavy, probably because, when I began the game, I abused it so much and had no idea what was mp management that i must have been somehow traumatized xD

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So you waste the actual Heal it provides in favor of a 50 potency regen that heals nothing before any damage is taken. Waste.

You time Medica II for when you see party/raid-wide damage coming in 3 seconds, not before the damage lands.

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You do realize that Hand of Beauty places an AoE puddle of foulness around the healer that got targeted and to avoid further damage, said healer would have to move in order to avoid it, at which time Lakshmi is already in the middle of casting Strolham, correct? At what point would I have enough time to move out of the AoE puddle and have Medica 2 up prior to Strolham going off and potentially killing the DPS that were also hit with Hand of Beauty? Apart from Swiftcasting, there is absolutely no way to get that heal out in time so I'd rather the regen be there ahead of time because at least the DPS WILL survive in that situation.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

How long does it take to clear trash in Baelsar's Wall? Castrum Abania? Kugane Castle? Ala Mhigo?

In most cases, trash dies before there is time to cast Holy a second time, except the current level 70 content. So in most cases I don't even bother, either I cast Holy first before doing anything else, or I don't cast it at all. You're supposed to cast Holy for the stun time because it's the only AOE stun that can be spammed. Celestial Opposition is an instant cast but has a longer recast time. Gravity+Celestial Opposition = single Holy cast. But AST's are more likely going to use that after they've thrown other buffs on. Do you have time to setup buffs on trash? Not really.

Where the fun gets sucked out of this game is when people do things in the laziest fashion possible. You're supposed to use Cure 1 on tanks that have lost less than half their HP, and Cure 2 when they've lost more than half, but depending on their gear and your gear, your Cure 2 can either heal them for 60% or for 20%. If a tank is not using their cooldowns, you may spam as many Cure 2's as you want but they are taking larger hits than your cure 2 recovers.

It's bad practice to just do things because the button is there. A Healer is not a DPS, nothing is being wasted by not casting it until you need it or it's most efficient to use it. At level 52+ and later you may as well use Assize either when 10% of your MP is gone or 20% of the party's HP is gone (It's a free instant-cast Medica used once.) Using it for damage right at the pull is silly but the net damage is more powerful than hitting every mob with stone IV, so the larger pull, the more net damage. You never get a chance to use Assize twice on a trash pull, and rarely on a boss mob. Hence using Holy+Assize gives you more bang than Holy spam, every time.

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So, what you're saying is that you won't even use Holy because trash dies too quickly to even bother, in which case the advice you gave that you should weave in Aero III or a Heal between Holy casts just further cements that Holy Spam would be more effective than either other option you yourself stated. If trash is dying fast enough that neither Aero III or a Heal matter, WHY ARE YOU SUGGESTING IT? You are contradicting yourself and the failed strawman argument about AST with Gravity+Celestial Oppression is just that, a failed strawman argument that just tries to distract from how wrong you are in your original statement. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use Aero III or a Heal when trash are dying slowly but if trash is dying as quickly as you are claiming than there is no need for either.

Next, you go on to say that 52+ using Assize for damage at the pull is silly (Assize is 56 btw) but in reality, you aren't using it at the start of a pull. You're using it after the tank has established hate and has thus taken SOME form of damage and you have just saved yourself some time by not having to use your GCD on a heal and can instantly start using Holy. Not only that but using it earlier ensures that Assize will be up again when you reach the next trash pull so that you may repeat the process, especially if you had Lillies for Assize. The damage from Assize has still occurred so it's not like using Holy before or after Assize makes any difference as damage is damage and the heal from Assize isn't going to waste as you still healed the tank.

For the sake of preventing this thread from devolving further from it's original point, I will not be commenting further and I suggest you do the same because it's not helpful.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Guess that's a old habit from the old WHM so I still use Cure when I don't need big heal.
But it is true that now that mana isn't a problem anymore and CureII have 100% to proc lilies, it could be better to use it instead.

I never liked to use Cure II or Benefic II except if damages on the tanks are really heavy, probably because, when I began the game, I abused it so much and had no idea what was mp management that i must have been somehow traumatized xD

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Understands. I pretty much only use Cure II and Benefic II when they proc or feces hit the fan.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The developers clearly designed the content to do single pulls, and as such single pulls should be spot-healable using just Cure 1/Benefic/Psysick. It's the fact that everyone wants to do as large pulls as possible why we're not getting a chance to optimize freecure proc's from Cure 1.

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Expert can be done pretty easily with 1 tank + 3dps if the tank pulls 1 group at a time. In other words, there is no reason to take a healer if the tank is pulling that small.

I would argue that the only time the developers explicitly designed for single group pulls is when walls exist between groups.

While larger pulls may not be great for free cure, they are great for DPS cooldowns and mp/tp efficiency of AoE dmg.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I find slight use for cure 1 over 2, but probably because I'm used to trying to proc a free cure II from older versions of the game.

But you're right. I find it needlessly fusterating that I am purposefully over curing for these stupid lilies I don't care for to begin with.

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I think the best idea is to just pretend lilies don't exist, and just cure 2 + benison if you need mitigation.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Expert can be done pretty easily with 1 tank + 3dps if the tank pulls 1 group at a time. In other words, there is no reason to take a healer if the tank is pulling that small.

I would argue that the only time the developers explicitly designed for single group pulls is when walls exist between groups.

While larger pulls may not be great for free cure, they are great for DPS cooldowns and mp/tp efficiency of AoE dmg.

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Big pulls can be fun or a nightmare. Lately they seem to fall more under the Nightmare category. Too many tanks refuse to use cooldowns and want to stay in dps stance. Which just is not fun when I'm having to spam heal the crap out of their squishy butt praying the next heal goes off prior to a crit from the trash.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

For the sake of preventing this thread from devolving further from it's original point, I will not be commenting further and I suggest you do the same because it's not helpful.

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I will not shut up because you want me to.

If you are playing content where the trash dies before the Holy cast even goes off, then there is no point casting it. Especially when you have a tank that keeps dragging the mobs around. You're supposed to use instant-casts after cast-times because it conserves the GCD recast time. So holy then assize, not assize then holy. Plus you recover the MP of that initial Holy. Spamming Holy before the stun wears off is just a waste, and if you do it on monsters that have interruptable mechanics before they telegraph those mechanics, then they become immune to it faster.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Expert can be done pretty easily with 1 tank + 3dps if the tank pulls 1 group at a time. In other words, there is no reason to take a healer if the tank is pulling that small.

I would argue that the only time the developers explicitly designed for single group pulls is when walls exist between groups.

While larger pulls may not be great for free cure, they are great for DPS cooldowns and mp/tp efficiency of AoE dmg.

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No, they put the walls there to discourage people running all the mobs straight into the boss room, or skipping them entirely. Brayflox, Haukke and Stone Vigil are different versions of the "throw roadcones in the way." Brayflox has no walls after the second boss, so you can quite literately gather up over 20 mobs and take them into the boss room. Haukke has a few locked rooms, but you can still get overwhelmed by the mobs before and after the first boss. Stone Vigil you can just train all the mobs straight into the boss room, except the last boss room which you can't open the door with being hit 10 times per second. If you run any content unsynced you'll notice how small every dungeon really is, and it only feels like it takes forever because you stop and fight one or two group of mobs.

Post ARR dungeons, the dungeons are more linearly designed and they put walls in so you can't just skip groups of monsters. Otherwise all it takes is a tank to attract all the mobs, run into the boss room, die, and the party hangs off to the side as the mobs run back to their origins and defeats the boss without the tank, then the tank takes the shortcut and repeat. That is explicitly why the walls exist.

In other games they usually invoke the "locked door and key" mechanic, where you only need to kill the mob with the key, you just don't know which one. In FFXIV it's always the last mob of a certain type.

Anyway, the point is, cure 2 does not replace cure 1. The dungeon layout is designed that if you take it as laid out, you can use Cure 1 at minimum ilevels. If you only use cure 2 and never use cure 1, then you need to be able make your MP last. So on trash, that is easily done, even on larger pulls because you are still limited by the cast time. So the tank can't pull bigger and take more damage than you the healer can heal for without them using their cooldowns. If they use all their cooldowns and the trash isn't dead, then that pull was too big. Hence strategic use of Holy and Assize buys more time for a larger pull. Benediction and Tetra can save one big pull but can't save consecutive pulls nor retries of the same big pull.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

1) The DoT from Aero 3 is mostly wasted and the flat damage from Holy will trump the little damage that Aero 3 would have done in the same time.

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On 4 mobs, Aero III matches Holy at 3 ticks and outdamages it at 4 ticks.
On 5+ mbos, Aero III outdamages Holy at 3 ticks.

Holy → Aero III → Holy → Holy → Holy
is worth doing.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

On 4 mobs, Aero III matches Holy at 3 ticks and outdamages it at 4 ticks.
On 5+ mbos, Aero III outdamages Holy at 3 ticks.

Holy → Aero III → Holy → Holy → Holy
is worth doing.

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In the context of which I stated this, I was referring to trash dying before Aero 3 would get even 2 ticks in, let alone 3+

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I will not shut up because you want me to.

If you are playing content where the trash dies before the Holy cast even goes off, then there is no point casting it. Especially when you have a tank that keeps dragging the mobs around. You're supposed to use instant-casts after cast-times because it conserves the GCD recast time. So holy then assize, not assize then holy. Plus you recover the MP of that initial Holy. Spamming Holy before the stun wears off is just a waste, and if you do it on monsters that have interruptable mechanics before they telegraph those mechanics, then they become immune to it faster.

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So you're saying you DON'T use Thin Air prior to Holy Spam? Got it.
Also, you never stated at any point about any mob that had interruptable mechanics prior to this statement of which case you aren't going to Holy spam anyways, that's should be common sense.

Anyways I'm done speaking about this.

Cure 1 still has its place. While it may or may not be optimal in cases where we're pushing for healer DPS, there are times where I need to play defensively to not only conserve mana for impending deaths of duty finder (very specific to full parties, and very rare for astonishingly low tank AND actual damage dealer's DPS). Also there are times where I need to save offGCDs for something else within the next few seconds, so I opt to Cure (or Regen--really depends on the situation) unless I really need Benision (for whatever the reason).

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

So you're saying you DON'T use Thin Air prior to Holy Spam? *snip*

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From what I understand (and also what I do) is to never use Thin Air when I start off Holy'ing unless my MP is below two Holy Casts as you'd want to maximize everything Assize does from healing HP, restoring MP and doing damage. In addition to this, by holding Thin Air for when MP drops below two Holy casts, we can benefit from the natural MP refresh in addition to Lucid Dreaming to supplement the Holy casts beyond Thin Air (if the mobs live that long anyways).

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Anyway, the point is, cure 2 does not replace cure 1. The dungeon layout is designed that if you take it as laid out, you can use Cure 1 at minimum ilevels. If you only use cure 2 and never use cure 1, then you need to be able make your MP last. So on trash, that is easily done, even on larger pulls because you are still limited by the cast time. So the tank can't pull bigger and take more damage than you the healer can heal for without them using their cooldowns. If they use all their cooldowns and the trash isn't dead, then that pull was too big. Hence strategic use of Holy and Assize buys more time for a larger pull. Benediction and Tetra can save one big pull but can't save consecutive pulls nor retries of the same big pull.

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But what about in the real world where either the tank pulls big and I use Cure 2 to keep him up or the tank can't pull big because of some sort of obsticle and he is in no danger of death so I let his health drop lower and Cure 2 becoems more GCD efficent than Cure? Either way Cure 2 is winning unless party DPS is so bad I need to conserve mana. In most groups that is not the case. Your argument is great from a theorycrafting perspective but doesn't hold up in practice.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

*snip*.

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Something to consider is, how much MP have you used to keep the Tank/DPS up prior to Holy spamming? In most case, you need to wait for the tank to stop pulling before you can start using Holy and if the tank/DPS are taking heaps of damage for whatever reason, it's unlikely that you'll be able to even get started without having used at least some MP to make sure everyone is fine before you Holy Spam, if you can at all. DPS pulling ahead of the tank/ripping hate off a tank is becoming far too often an occurrence that I'd be lying if I said I was a full MP prior to starting Thin Air+Holy Spam.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Something to consider is, how much MP have you used to keep the Tank/DPS up prior to Holy spamming? In most case, you need to wait for the tank to stop pulling before you can start using Holy and if the tank/DPS are taking heaps of damage for whatever reason, it's unlikely that you'll be able to even get started without having used at least some MP to make sure everyone is fine before you Holy Spam, if you can at all. DPS pulling ahead of the tank/ripping hate off a tank is becoming far too often an occurrence that I'd be lying if I said I was a full MP prior to starting Thin Air+Holy Spam.

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Absolutely. I think the most I've ever done was Tetra/Cure 2 before they reached the next pack. DPS can die if they get hit by too much avoidable damage though cause at that point I don't have GCDs to spare to heal them.

With Cure 2 being a 100% lily proc, if I'm using a direct heal I use it, if I have 3 lilies already then I use cure 1.

Cure 2 at higher level is your go to single target spammable heal, really, since MP often isn't your primary concern vs HPS and GCDs. But then you get Susano normal in the duty finder with a bunch of folks who have never done it (like me), who then die early (like me), and then have to res people throughout the fight (me, after the other healer got me back up).

At that point the focus shifts to simply having enough MP to remain functional, and Cure 1's MP efficiency + freecure matter a lot more. It's kind of weird that Cure 2 is a better bet more often than not given how the job design suggests it should be Cure, but IMO it works reasonably well as is. You've got a tool where you can trade MP for throughput, and a tool where you can throttle back throughput to conserve MP.

Once you figure out how you want to approach using them, it seems to work well enough.

Cure 1 is more mp efficient, but Cure 2 is more time efficient, allowing you to dps more. So if you have excess MP Cure 2 can be worth using, even in situations cure 1 could technically handle it. The extra lily chance is just the cherry on top.

As a side note this also means piety can indirectly be a considered heal/dps throughput stat if it allows you cast more Cure 2 instead of cure 1.

For me it comes down to the situation. As I'm sure the majority of healers are getting familiar with, the standard for tanking seems to be pull big, sometimes it seems excessively big to me at least. Your basicly forced to use Cure 2 to keep up with the damage the tank is taking, generally though I'm also trying to pop asylum and regen on the tank to make things easier for me. I don't have any raid experience mind you but from dungeons and such for the newer content I tend to use Cure 2 a lot more then Cure, lilies have zero influence on it at all, as nice as the system is it only affects 4 spells. 2 of those spells also have a 5 sec. cooldown reduction (20% chance) when casting cure and cure 2 as well from a trait. At bare minimum right now, at least for me, lilies are a nice little perk nothing else. The only time I'd stick with Cure is running any of the old content where you don't have Assize handy.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you are playing content where the trash dies before the Holy cast even goes off, then there is no point casting it. Especially when you have a tank that keeps dragging the mobs around. You're supposed to use instant-casts after cast-times because it conserves the GCD recast time. So holy then assize, not assize then holy.

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That's not quite how it works. You are supposed to use instant oGCD abilities after instant or very short cast GCD abilities (for us instants are Regen or Aero 2 or anything swiftcasted, and short cast GCDs are Esuna and sort of Cure 1, Cure 2, and Cure 3). This allows you to use your oGCDs and get through their animations without impacting your GCDs as much. Holy's cast timer is actually LONGER than the GCD, so if you aren't swiftcasting or moving the only difference between Holy>Assize and Assize>Holy is that one uses Holy first and one uses Assize first. Which is better depends on the context of the situation, but your next ability will still start at the same time either way.