Roulette Tweak Suggestion

Earlier today, 3 members of my FC and one Linkshell friend of one of my FC members gets together to do a Leveling Roulette.

At least two of them are Level 70, and all of us are 60+ (I was 66 at the time).

We Q up for Leveling Roulette and we get...... Dzemael Darkhold. *sigh*

Seriously?

I am 100% fine with doing even Sastasha if there's somebody there who needs it, or even if it is relevant to someone (someone who's <Lv25), but seriously. A full Lv60+ group should not be getting a Lv45-ish dungeon. It is worth no worthwhile XP to any of us, and all of the drops are worth pretty much nothing. They're not even worth the GC seals, because that stuff gives you a piddly 200-300 seals, where if you did a Stormblood dungeon, you'd be getting more like 1.5k seals.

My suggestion: If everybody in the group is doing Roulette and there are no specific queues, the Roulette should ask itself a few questions:

1). Does anybody in the group have a dungeon they have unlocked but yet to clear that is also available to everybody else?
2). What's the lowest level player in the group?

What the Duty Finder should then do, is first consider #1 -- pick the lowest level character who has an unlocked but yet-to-clear dungeon and pick that dungeon if possible (assuming everybody else has it unlocked too).

If #1 does not apply (nobody has an unlocked but uncleared dungeon, or one of the group members can't do it), then #2 should be considered.

If #2, then only dungeons of Lowest Level -5 and up should be considered.

For example, let's say two Lv70s, a Lv65, and a Lv55 Q end up in a Roulette group together. Everybody queued for "Leveling Roulette" and nobody has an Unlocked but Uncleared dungeon.

The Roulette system should only choose Lv50-55 dungeons that are available to the entire group. Let's say the Lv55 only has Dusk Vigil, and Sohm Al available (he hasn't gotten far enough to get to Nidhogg's lair yet). Therefore, the result will either be Dusk Vigil or Sohm Al.

Um, then just don't do the leveling roulette. Because the Leveling roulette is basically every dungeon except the 50-60 dungeons. They're on their own roulette. Leveling roulette is specifically for your lower level alt classes.

But it still is a nice suggestion. Until then, though, yeah. x_X

I would love it to go by the lowest level party member since I'm sick to death of getting the lowest level dungeons in the game. Yesterday I'm on a 59 RDM, lowest party member is 46 yet we're in SATASHA! Can something seriuosly be done about this as it's putting me off doing levelling roulette due to the constant low level dungeons no one needs.

Yes. So much yes!
I will never understand how a full group of lv70 people end up in Sastasha.
I have absolutely no problem with running Sastasha if I get partied with a low lvl, who gets something out of the run. But if a group of all 70 characters get together, the dungeon should just at least be in the -10 level range.

That is the nature of a roulette...you can get anything in the pool

As nice as this sounds... it is a roulette. Not that I wouldn't love for some tweaking, because as you said running stuff some 40 levels below my current level is pretty boring.. but yeah, roulette.

The levelling roulette is nearly always worthwhile exp...

Last one I did we got titan story I walked out with over 1.5 million exp for a 4 minute duty.

All the low level stuff pays off.

In heavensward for example getting sastasha would throw you an 750k exp bonus at the end if you were level 59.

If you ran the library at 59 you only got about 850k from it and it took longer.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The levelling roulette is nearly always worthwhile exp...

Last one I did we got titan story I walked out with over 1.5 million exp for a 4 minute duty.

All the low level stuff pays off.

In heavensward for example getting sastasha would throw you an 750k exp bonus at the end if you were level 59.

If you ran the library at 59 you only got about 850k from it and it took longer.

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Yeah if I remember what the roulette says, it specifically tells you that the roulette reward you get scales to what your level is and what the level of the dungeon your doing is. So if you got Sastasha, you'd get a ton of EXP.

Here's the problem, though:

Sastasha = Get no XP from kills, and "X" XP from the Roulette Completion.
Stormblood Dungeon = Far more XP from kills, and the same "X" XP from Roulette Completion

For example, if you get, say, that dungeon in Azim Steppes, you get 28,000 per kill. In Sastasha, you get about 500-1k per kill.

When you complete the end of the dungeon, you get the same reward out of using the Duty Finder and running the Roulette for the first time in a day. So you can go from getting, say, 30% of a level by doing Sastasha to getting 80% or more by getting that Azim Steppes dungeon.

A few days ago, I Q'd my 65 WHM up. I was 10% into the level. When the dungeon was over, I was just a hair from dinging 66.

However, yesterday, I took my 67 Paladin out with some guildies... we wound up in Dzemael Darkhold. I got barely 30% of a level.

That's a pretty large difference.

I keep hearing,

"I don't mind doing Sastasha if there's somebody who needs it, but we shouldn't end up in Sastasha if we're a complete party of high level characters."

The thing is, the roulette isn't there for complete parties of high level characters who want to queue DR:Leveling. It's there for the solo people who are queued up for specific dungeons hoping that people will queue up for DR:Leveling with an open spot in the party. So if you don't want to end up in Sastasha, queue for the specific level-appropriate dungeon your party wants to do.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Here's the problem, though:

Sastasha = Get no XP from kills, and "X" XP from the Roulette Completion.
Stormblood Dungeon = Far more XP from kills, and the same "X" XP from Roulette Completion

For example, if you get, say, that dungeon in Azim Steppes, you get 28,000 per kill. In Sastasha, you get about 500-1k per kill.

When you complete the end of the dungeon, you get the same reward out of using the Duty Finder and running the Roulette for the first time in a day. So you can go from getting, say, 30% of a level by doing Sastasha to getting 80% or more by getting that Azim Steppes dungeon.

A few days ago, I Q'd my 65 WHM up. I was 10% into the level. When the dungeon was over, I was just a hair from dinging 66.

However, yesterday, I took my 67 Paladin out with some guildies... we wound up in Dzemael Darkhold. I got barely 30% of a level.

That's a pretty large difference.

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not certain but I think that's flawed. i'm pretty sure no dungeon gives you what you've basically said is 90% of a level in a single run. (from 10% to a hair away)from the ding) even with absolute max rested bonus.

if levelling dungeons threw that much exp out per run people wouldn't have been doing pvp for a million exp a pop.. because one run of doma castle would have thrown them 6 million esp (90% of there level)

also the exp bonus at the end isn't the same either. think you only get a couple of hundred k for clearing doma castle for example....

Truth be told I've never paid enough attention to exactly how much any dungeon gives per level but i'm pretty sure it never adds to that much and pretty sure you don't get the same 1.8mill reward for doing titan story at the end of something like doma castle..

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I keep hearing,

"I don't mind doing Sastasha if there's somebody who needs it, but we shouldn't end up in Sastasha if we're a complete party of high level characters."

The thing is, the roulette isn't there for complete parties of high level characters who want to queue DR:Leveling. It's there for the solo people who are queued up for specific dungeons hoping that people will queue up for DR:Leveling with an open spot in the party. So if you don't want to end up in Sastasha, queue for the specific level-appropriate dungeon your party wants to do.

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Yeah, but you see, sometimes you Q up for Roulette and you just happen to get a full party of 70s, or 60+ or what-not.

When you DO get such a party, absolutely nobody benefits from getting Sastasha. I don't mind running Sastasha if it is of any actual benefit to at least one member of the group.

However, when the dungeon offers no tangible reward to anybody in the group except for the Roulette credit at the very end, then it seems like such a big waste of time when the thing COULD give us something higher.

And yes, I know the Roulette was originally made to help lowbies get clears. That's fine! That's awesome! But yet a lot of times, at least 8 out of 10 times, I end up in a dungeon that nobody needed.

EDIT: I would also like to ask a question: Would my suggestion actually hurt anyone? Would it take away any fun at all, if you were guaranteed to get a Dungeon within 5 levels of the lowest member of the group? Would that be a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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You get a static XP from using the Duty Finder (this is available as many times as you want per day, but it is something piddly like 90k XP) and then you get a static XP bonus from your First-Time Completion of a Roulette. This amount varies upon WHICH roulette you use (Leveling is the best IIRC).



When you Q up for a Leveling Roulette, you will get the same reward REGARDLESS which dungeon you are placed in. Yes, Baby Ifrit will give you the same Daily Roulette Reward as Doma Castle.

HOWEVER, Ifrit himself gives zero XP. Your XP meter will barely budge when you finish the dungeon.

If you had gotten put in Doma Castle, you would have the Daily Reward PLUS the kills (at the tune of almost 30,000 per kill, and that's not counting the 6 figure XP for the 3 boss kills). If you want, I can screenshot but it will take a few days to get the data for proof.

In the meantime, do it yourself -- Leveling Roulette the next few days, and take a SS of what the game says your rewards for finishing the roulette are. It's a static amount based upon your current level, with bonuses added if you are an Adventurer in Need, and also if there happens to be a Newbie involved.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I keep hearing,

"I don't mind doing Sastasha if there's somebody who needs it, but we shouldn't end up in Sastasha if we're a complete party of high level characters."

The thing is, the roulette isn't there for complete parties of high level characters who want to queue DR:Leveling. It's there for the solo people who are queued up for specific dungeons hoping that people will queue up for DR:Leveling with an open spot in the party. So if you don't want to end up in Sastasha, queue for the specific level-appropriate dungeon your party wants to do.

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I do queue solo for that most times, and a lot of times, if I check the other people, I notice everyone is on the 50-70 range. So I wonder why we get thrown into an extremely low lvl dungeon, when all people would have been able to enter a higher one, which benefits everyone more.
Also, I get its a roulette, but I keep getting into low dungeons a lot more than, say, HW or SB leveling dungeons. If it's a real roulette each one should have the same chance of showing up, but it's mostly Sastasha and Haukke I get thrown into, even if there's no-one who needs those in the party.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

When you Q up for a Leveling Roulette, you will get the same reward REGARDLESS which dungeon you are placed in. Yes, Baby Ifrit will give you the same Daily Roulette Reward as Doma Castle.

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This is wrong.

The adventurer in need bonus is set, and is independent of the content you end up in.

The daily roulette bonus increases as the level of the content decreases (in most cases, this correlates to lower expected natural dungeon experience). If you end up in the final leveling dungeon, your roulette reward will be much lower than if you were placed in Sastasha. This is to compensate you for running lower level content, and is what the DF entry means by

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Originally Posted by Duty Roulette: Leveling

Bonus EXP and gill will be awarded to compensate for the discrepancy between character and duty levels. A further percentage will then be added based on character level.

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http://i.imgur.com/V2eqQsa.png

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

If it's a real roulette each one should have the same chance of showing up, but it's mostly Sastasha and Haukke I get thrown into, even if there's no-one who needs those in the party.

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You can't make any judgements about poor randomness based on your roulette results. There are thousands of other roulettes run every day.

if you want consistent XP and progress, queue for the dungeon you want, or select a few you like and leave it up to chance. If you want the bonus and maybe helping someone out? Pray to RNG-sus and DF it up.
I don't think this system need to be more complex. It serves it's purpose: helping new people complete old content. I understand you're all past it.. but just because you don't want black 2 coming up on the roulette wheel, doesn't mean you aren't going to get it.

I've been doing roulettes on my healer job while running through SB quests on my main dps. I keep wanting easy roulettes because I'm just getting re-acquainted with healing after months away and have to get used to healing mass pulls on AST. So far, I'm only getting higher level ones where people do mass pulls and it's stressing me out. RNG is RNG, and it'll generally feel likes its always doing the opposite of what you want.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

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Okay, then the actual % is not enough to make it worthwhile.

They need to buff it, because you still get way more XP out of current content than you would Sastasha. I'll do actual comparisons next time I get these kinds of dungeons and show you real numbers in actual practice instead of a screenshot of the game giving you a vague statement that doesn't really tell you what you actually get.

So maybe I was "wrong" that it is the "same" but yet again, there's not enough of a difference to offset how much XP you are losing from kills. At 30,000XP per kill, the difference is very noticeable. That, and the lack of decent loot if you get stuck in Sastasha you get Lv16 gear. Big whoop. I'd rather get a Stormblood dungeon and get gear my other jobs could use or something I don't already have that I could use for glamours. And everybody else in the group is also high enough level, I bet most of them would wish the same.

So why stick us in Sastasha, again?

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Originally Posted by Rongway

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So, what, we're down to arguing semantics now?

When you queue for a leveling dungeon, you get a static amount of XP based on your level, which obviously scales the higher up you go. The issue isn't that part, it's more to do with the fact that you're thrown into Tamtara with a party of all 60+ characters, because screw it you don't need the XP, right? It's frustrating when you're just starting a new set of levels, only to jump into the roulette and get stuck in a dungeon of other, similarly leveled characters in a place where you have 2 buttons to use. I'm sure none of us have problems doing dungeon runs when we see someone at the recommended level of the dungeon, or we see that first time bonus pop up, but if we're all 60+, why the hell are we forced to run through goddamn Sastasha?

I don't think the OP is saying to screw over new players. I think she's saying if the DF decides to assign her to a party with a level 17 player, or decides to assign such a player to her incomplete pre-made party, then she doesn't mind if it ends up picking Sastasha (For example). However if all the players end up being over level 40 (for example), then it should be a random 35+ dungeon.

Seems fair enough. I don't know how DF's algorithm works for deciding who's in what party so this might be quite tricky (but as with anything, not impossible, just means if it's tricky it won't be implemented for a long time).

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Originally Posted by Maeka

So why stick us in Sastasha, again?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

why the hell are we forced to run through goddamn Sastasha?

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You chose to queue for the roulette instead of queuing for the specific dungeons that you actually wanted to do. If you want to do something else, queue for something else.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I don't think the OP is saying to screw over new players. I think she's saying if the DF decides to assign her to a party with a level 17 player, or decides to assign such a player to her incomplete pre-made party, then she doesn't mind if it ends up picking Sastasha (For example). However if all the players end up being over level 40 (for example), then it should be a random 35+ dungeon.

Seems fair enough. I don't know how DF's algorithm works for deciding who's in what party so this might be quite tricky (but as with anything, not impossible, just means if it's tricky it won't be implemented for a long time).

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That's exactly what we've been saying. I don't mind running low level dungeons one bit, if there's someone in the group that benefits from it. But if everyone far outlevels the duty we rolled, it's a benefit to noone.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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The bonus xp changes pretty drastically, for Bardam's Mettle the roulette bonus is around 600k, at the same level Sastasha's is about 1.8M, albiet you can easily get 2M xp out of abardams run, but the actual difference in end xp for getting either in roulette is maybe 400-500k as opposed to the difference in actual xp attained from the dungeon itself where BMs completion bonus is probably more than sastasha altogether.

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I don't think the OP is saying to screw over new players. I think she's saying if the DF decides to assign her to a party with a level 17 player, or decides to assign such a player to her incomplete pre-made party, then she doesn't mind if it ends up picking Sastasha (For example). However if all the players end up being over level 40 (for example), then it should be a random 35+ dungeon.

Seems fair enough. I don't know how DF's algorithm works for deciding who's in what party so this might be quite tricky (but as with anything, not impossible, just means if it's tricky it won't be implemented for a long time).

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

That's exactly what we've been saying. I don't mind running low level dungeons one bit, if there's someone in the group that benefits from it. But if everyone far outlevels the duty we rolled, it's a benefit to noone.

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^^
This.

I thought I made myself clear in the OP, but apparently not...

Gist version being missed:
Make leveling roulette help people leveling. Don't not do that by making a group with all 70s. Next, bring us 70s down to the person's 40 range. Don't drag the 70s and the 40 into a Sastasha.

My perspective: I'm a tank. I make your queues faster. Couldn't care less if it's Sastasha, Quarn, Vigil etc. I would prefer to actually help people then drag people through a slog.

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

Gist version being missed:
Make leveling roulette help people leveling. Don't not do that by making a group with all 70s. Next, bring us 70s down to the person's 40 range. Don't drag the 70s and the 40 into a Sastasha.

My perspective: I'm a tank. I make your queues faster. Couldn't care less if it's Sastasha, Quarn, Vigil etc. I would prefer to actually help people then drag people through a slog.

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Well, thing with Roulette is you don't get a choice of who is in your group. If it's all 70s, then it is all 70s because they happened to be next in line at the Queue.

But yes, I like helping lowbies out. If I see a newbie bonus pop up, I'll explain the gist of a boss before I pull it, if I feel that the boss has anything important enough they need to know ahead of time. Or even if there is no newbie bonus and I see someone unsync'd in a lowbie dungeon, I still like helping them out, because I know they are getting massive XP and practice playing their class. Getting a brand-new Lv16 sprout unsync'd in Sastasha with first-time bonus makes me happy. I love seeing it. I'll gladly tank that Sastasha, even if it means it's a bad healer and we end up wiping, I still have the hope that I can offer enough tips to get them to be a better healer. Someone will benefit from it down the road.

That said... if I DO get stuck in a full Lv60+ group and we're in something stupid like Sastasha.... then it feels like a huge waste of time. Nobody is learning how to play their class better, nobody is getting loot that is relevant or useful, and it's a dungeon that we've all done hundreds of times, so it is nothing new.

My main question is, why do a leveling roulette as a 70? You won't get anything out of it. Sure, roulette reward of verity, but you'll get more from the Expert Roulette or just spamming those lv70 dungeons. I personally reserve the leveling/etc roulettes for my alt classes that actually need to level up, like my NIN at 55 right now, or my PUG/ARC at 15-16.

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Originally Posted by Lustaria

My main question is, why do a leveling roulette as a 70? You won't get anything out of it. Sure, roulette reward of verity, but you'll get more from the Expert Roulette or just spamming those lv70 dungeons. I personally reserve the leveling/etc roulettes for my alt classes that actually need to level up, like my NIN at 55 right now, or my PUG/ARC at 15-16.

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You could do 50/60 + Trials for a combined 180 Verity.

OR

You could do 50/60 + Trials + Leveling for a combined 280 Verity.

So uh..... ya.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

You could do 50/60 + Trials for a combined 180 Verity.

OR

You could do 50/60 + Trials + Leveling for a combined 280 Verity.

So uh..... ya.

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Failed to even address what I said.

Expert Roulette: 80 Verity
Level 70 Dungeon: 80 Verity; Each Boss: 40? Verity. (More for first time bonus?)

Total: 280 Verity. Then 80+40?+40? every time you spam a 70 dungeon. Sure, takes more overall time than the roulettes, but... if you want the verity..


PS: I'm not disagreeing with your suggestion by the way; I'm just pointing out if you want more verity for your buck, then you're better off doing expert roulette/spamming lv70 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Lustaria

Failed to even address what I said.

Expert Roulette: 80 Verity
Level 70 Dungeon: 80 Verity; Each Boss: 40? Verity. (More for first time bonus?)

Total: 280 Verity. Then 80+40?+40? every time you spam a 70 dungeon. Sure, takes more overall time than the roulettes, but... if you want the verity..


PS: I'm not disagreeing with your suggestion by the way; I'm just pointing out if you want more verity for your buck, then you're better off doing expert roulette/spamming lv70 dungeons.

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Isn't it you get 15-20 Verity for first two bosses, then the rest for the final boss? If I am remembering correctly(and I probably am NOT...my memory is definitely not the best) the amount of Tomes a dungeon gives is the total you will receive from it(boss + completion), and is broken down to be distributed by the bosses.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Isn't it you get 15-20 Verity for first two bosses, then the rest for the final boss? If I am remembering correctly(and I probably am NOT...my memory is definitely not the best) the amount of Tomes a dungeon gives is the total you will receive from it(boss + completion), and is broken down to be distributed by the bosses.

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Well if that's the case, then I'm dumb. XD I will fact check/test the next time I do the expert roulette though.

It's definitely something I will be double checking when I get home as well. Giving people the wrong information is something I hate doing.