If AST/WHM is a thing, it's not because WHM is stronger than SCH

Getting very close to Omega now, and hearing a bunch of people talking about compositions.
I've seen tons of people suggest WHM/AST over SCH/AST.

I just wanted to say this now, because it's definitely going to be bought up when discussing if WHM needs to be looked at in terms of balance and identity.

The only reason people are even suggesting a WHM over SCH and chain Strategem is because it means having access to ASTs completely broken shields, which can damn near make AOE damage ignorable and tank busters and afterthought. I assume this was SE' intentions as well, since their attempt to push WHM/AST in Creator fell flat.

That's all I wanted to say really..
Once Omega hits, criticism on jobs will be taken a lot more seriously, so I just don't want misinformation that certain jobs no longer need to be looked at to get around just because they may be in the Meta comp.
WHMs usefulness is simply a result of Nocturnal AST being way to overtuned. It's why I haven't heard a peep of WHM/SCH comps being even considered.

Being able to raise two people with no MP cost (Swiftcast and Presence of Mind) to me alone is already fantastic. WHM has better DPS and raw healing and fantastic OCG healing abilities with it. I'd say it's a much better raiding class.

all of those things are just good for prog though. once people figure out how much healing/mitigation is needed, they're gonna go for more utility. That being said, WHM is still in a better spot than it was in HW.

If AST/WHM is a thing, it's not because WHM is stronger than SCH (compare these two jobs is already a false analysis), it's because it's the compo who possess the most advantages (and the situation of SCH is even worse than I thought).
This was obvious for me already before the launch of Stormblood (when many WHM couldn't even analysed the 3 jobs and all the compo properly)
But yeah, we will be fixed with Omega Savage.

Eh, I kind of disagree with the WHM part. Yeah they still don't have utility, but outside of that they are looking very strong. SCH literally have one move keeping them viable at the moment, Chain Strategem. Otherwise they lose to both healers in pretty much every aspect, and quite badly.

I agree that AST needs nerfing, WHM maybe a little something, and SCH a rework of many abilities, but I still think WHMs are not in a bad place. Lets not elongate the pre-release nightmares that WHMs were having, it's clearly turned out to be a pretty decent job that only requires a few small tweaks at most. (PI if anything.)

I switch to WHM because SCH's changes made me sick and honestly
WHM feels really good with it's awesome pool of mana, which could result in better recovery during progress.

HOWEVER... what is good in WHM right now is the changes they made on the skill he already had (+ thin air and devine benision)
Lilies and plenary indulgence still suck.

But he can do the job very well and I'll feel more confortable raiding as WHM.
(but not saying it'll be optimal however)

No matter what SE does, the fact that the community always wants to select two healers at the exclusion of a third, rather than figuring out how to make each viable and selecting composition based on available players, will remain a problem. There is always going to be someone who is 'last' unless SE redesigns the healing jobs to have identical toolkits with only cosmetic differences separating them. I don't think we want that, but much like how SE wants the game played a certain way and the meta goes another, that is a curveball we may be risking.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHMs usefulness is simply a result of Nocturnal AST being way to overtuned. It's why I haven't heard a peep of WHM/SCH comps being even considered.

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I'd say it was more because turning up to a progression raid without 20% balance is just daft as things stand.

WHM/AST is a well rounded and forgiving combo that's looking especially good now given the state Eos is in right now.

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Originally Posted by Katryn

No matter what SE does, the fact that the community always wants to select two healers at the exclusion of a third, rather than figuring out how to make each viable and selecting composition based on available players, will remain a problem. There is always going to be someone who is 'last' unless SE redesigns the healing jobs to have identical toolkits with only cosmetic differences separating them. I don't think we want that, but much like how SE wants the game played a certain way and the meta goes another, that is a curveball we may be risking.

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This is only partially true. Some people are beholden to whatever is "meta," but the vast majority are flexible. Black Mage and Summoner frequently stepped into even hardcore groups during Creator despite Bard and Machinist being better. Why? They were both strong. The issue isn't one job being inevitably left behind, but whether it's too weak relative to its counterparts. Take Machinist currently. It's utterly worthless; inferior support and DPS alike, people are switching because it offers nothing. On the other hand, you won't see groups during away Dragoon.

All the devs need do is make each job strong enough it doesn't feel like a hindrance without one. Unfortunately, the healer meta is "Astro and the other one."

Even if the devs make the jobs strong it doesn't matter. There will always be come cookie cutter set up for the objectively biggest numbers and to a lesser extent the systems that circumvent certain mechanics and checks easily especially if the raids in question are broke, horribly designed, or made with short sighted, foolish intentions. Take Gordias Savage for example, which is easy cause what happened there epitomizes this.

WHM just needs a tune up for Lillies and Plenary Indulgence, bc both of those things offer a marginal benefit for the job. You can clear any fight purposefully ignoring them and it changes absolutely nothing about your performance save for maybe the use of Divine Benison for busters. As it stands right now tho, WHM is objectively better than SCH in almost every regard save for the ever elusive party utility. But even then, the removal of Cleric Stance hit SCH very hard. WHM can effortlessly make up for SCH's passive and free healing with their incredibly strong DPS and HPS, not to mention the much better MP sustainability.

I used to be of the idea that SCH was still going to be better bc NoctAST doesn't have any passive healing, and while that is still true, it's much more viable to bring WHM to anything now than it was at any point of Creator, so I stand corrected on that front. ASt+SCH is probably still the most optimal composition with DPS in consideration, but WHM+NoctAST is almost on par with it.

Of course, this doesn't mean the current state of healer meta is healthy. Astrologian seriously needs a massive nerf to their utility because they're literally the only job in the game that is absolutely NEEDED for any party composition, hardcore or casual. They're basically what WAR was through the entirety of HW and that's a terrible, terrible situation.

Its going to come down to if dps phase checks are a wall in progression, and if SCH's Chain Strategem is strong enough that it makes passing those walls easier compared to having a WHM (WHM has higher personal dps vs SCH's raid dps buff).

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Originally Posted by Sacerdos

Its going to come down to if dps phase checks are a wall in progression, and if SCH's Chain Strategem is strong enough that it makes passing those walls easier compared to having a WHM (WHM has higher personal dps vs SCH's raid dps buff).

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The thing is atm the difference between whm and sch dps is pretty low. Which I'm pretty sure as whole CS covers

Glancing at FF logs, White Mage doesn't have as much of a lead as I expected. It's early content, but late July will really shake this out.

My own static has an AST/SCH pairing, and we're not sweating it. It's great to have every advantage, but some folks who worry about that to a great degree still won't even make it. I'm fairly confident they'll start sorting things out during 4.1. That seems like a long time to wait, but it's not like this hasn't happened before, and not just to healers either.

if lb penalty is an issue and you cant coordinate cards well enough then sch/AST will be meta purely for chain stratagem raid dps has always been king in this game and in its current state crit buffs are too important to not take.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Of course, this doesn't mean the current state of healer meta is healthy. Astrologian seriously needs a massive nerf to their utility because they're literally the only job in the game that is absolutely NEEDED for any party composition, hardcore or casual. They're basically what WAR was through the entirety of HW and that's a terrible, terrible situation.

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I agree that AST utility is probably in too good a situation by comparison, but nerf it too far and AST will find itself back where it started. They spent the first 2 to 3 fifths of Heavensward warming the bench. It was only after the benefit of their cards was noticeable that they were desired. The real problem here is just overall healer design. Unless they make a decision to homogenize the healers, I think we'll always see some form of disparity. Even then, I don't doubt people will still dig around for reasons to exclude one job or another from their composition.

Big changes are needed to AST. Someone wrote on here that the mistake was making a substitute for WHM/SCH, whichever wasn't in the party, with their Sects and the aspected heals.

Perhaps what needs to be done is change the sects or get rid of them, and tie their aspected heals to a card? Like Aspected Benefic could heal and do 50% effect of whatever card is drawn, while Aspected Helios does 25% effect of the drawn card and heals. Or would that still make them too powerful?

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Originally Posted by VanEinstein

I agree that AST utility is probably in too good a situation by comparison, but nerf it too far and AST will find itself back where it started. They spent the first 2 to 3 fifths of Heavensward warming the bench. It was only after the benefit of their cards was noticeable that they were desired. The real problem here is just overall healer design. Unless they make a decision to homogenize the healers, I think we'll always see some form of disparity. Even then, I don't doubt people will still dig around for reasons to exclude one job or another from their composition.

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I both agree and disagree with you, but the reasons why are somewhat complicated.

On release, AST's utility was somewhat undertuned, and their sole weakness throughout all of Heavensward (the lack of oGCD burst healing) was MUCH more evident due to their lower healing potencies. This later problem, coupled with horribly punishing encounter design, was the reason AST simply couldn't handle Gordias. If you add to this the fact that in 3.0-3.17 card management was in a rather pitiful state (the problem of Redrawing the same card, the lengthy CD on Spread, the duration and potency on some cards, like Bole, Arrow and Balance, shorter expansion from Celestial Opposition, etc), you had that formula for a woefully overshadowed class that simply couldn't fill the niche it was supposed to fill by design, which was replacing either of WHM or SCH.

However, all those weaknesses have been completely erased, and AST now poses the opposite problem: its utility was twaked to a point of near-perfection in 3.4, and even though some QoL changes have made card management take a step back, the addition of Lady and Lord have served as a cherry on top of the already amazing cake. Coupled with this, AST's healing potencies are even better than WHM's and SCH's with the sole exception of Cure III in the "spammable healing spell" department, and their oGCD burst healing, once AST's sole weakness, is forever in the past due to the incredible power of Earthly Star.

Right now, AST's utility is too powerful, their healing is too powerful, their shielding is too powerful, and even though their MP efficiency is not as good as WHM, it's not enough of an incentive to not bring it in favor of either of the two healers.

At least two of the three aspects I mentioned above have to be nerfed in order to regain some semblance of balance among healers, though, in my opinion, AST's very design is never going to allow this. I still stand by my idea that Astrologian needs to be redesigned from the ground up in order for it to stop being a hybrid of the other two and regain its own identity centered solely around the utility aspect.

Hmm it sounds like a brunch of WHM are complaining about AST and insisting their class isn't too strong, like they are afraid of nerfs, or something.

I've healed a lot of trials and 8 man alongside WHM and can easily say that they seemed to have an infinite mana pool. I'd run out darn near instant while barely healing, while the WHM was constantly tossing aoe heals off CD without breaking a sweat. I think some are in hardcore denial that their class is strong.

Scholar, on the other hand... have yet to heal alongside them. Probably because they're the weaker healer. I see WHM everywhere else, though.

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Originally Posted by VanEinstein

The real problem here is just overall healer design. Unless they make a decision to homogenize the healers, I think we'll always see some form of disparity.

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So, Nerf AST's heals by around 75% percent? If they're gonna have such amazing utility, they need to pay out the nose for it in other areas. Maybe coordinating with their party a lot more to actually reach the MP threshold required. There's plenty of ways to heal, after all.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

Glancing at FF logs, White Mage doesn't have as much of a lead as I expected. It's early content, but late July will really shake this out.

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Why should WHM be so far ahead? SCH single target damage is pretty good on paper. AoE damage on the other hand...well...WHM is king there.

its not because whm is stronger than sch, its because a chocobo is stronger than a fairy, and a sch heals for half of what a whm or astro can.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So, Nerf AST's heals by around 75% percent? If they're gonna have such amazing utility, they need to pay out the nose for it in other areas. Maybe coordinating with their party a lot more to actually reach the MP threshold required. There's plenty of ways to heal, after all.

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I think you misinterpreted my statement. I'm saying that ultimately all available healers need to be equal in capability, and that includes their utility. Any other scenario contributes to the problem we're already seeing. I'm not nearly articulate or creative enough to outline quite how you'd keep the class fantasy alive while managing to keep all three healers perfectly aligned, not to mention any future healer likely to be added. If AST output were to be nerfed by 75%, it would cease to function in current content. I get you're probably trying to say what others have said though, that it needs a different method of doing it's job, and if so I agree.

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Originally Posted by Tashim

its not because whm is stronger than sch, its because a chocobo is stronger than a fairy, and a sch heals for half of what a whm or astro can.

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^ This is pretty much it. Add to that the mana problems created (I'm not saying SCH is unplayable, mind you, I've cleared all content before Omega already on it multiple times, and am ilvl313 [not enough luck on Susano EX yet]), and SCH is made with a higher skill floor for less benefit (by comparison, my WHM/AST take less effort to provide the same or better healing at DPS...).

Our static Ast told us yesterday that he joined a Sunsano Ex grp with a whm which solo healed the whole fight - he himself haven't thrown in a single healing spell... he was just playing cards and dpsed in between... I think whms with their huge mana pool and haste-cds are doing pretty good in the end... maybe they are getting the main healer spot back on their flags while Ast takes the utility part... noc shields are just incredible overpowered in this state – sch seems to be the loser so far : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

WHM solo heal

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The current trials are very easy to solo heal if everyone knows what they're doing. It's really not an indication of any kind.
Besides, it's not like AST is unable to do the same thing. I don't see AST losing it's main healer role, and with how important Chain Strategem is, I do see SCH leaving despite being pretty lacking ATM.
SE is pushing a AST/WHM comp hard for some reason, but they don't understand that as long as other healers can reach a WHMs level of healing, they'll always take utility over slightly more heals.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Our static Ast told us yesterday that he joined a Sunsano Ex grp with a whm which solo healed the whole fight

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Yeah, WHM is incredibly powerful right now. They took care of the only thing that could cause problems, that is the rng nature of lilies. Now that we can get a lily with cure 2 100% time we can plan our assize, tetra and asylum around the reduced cd so it's ok. And right now, WHM has basically infinite mana and the strongest heals and dps in the game to justify the lack of utility. Confession stacks are still...meh. That mechanic should be reworked imho. It doesn't make whm any less powerful, but it's a silly and annoyting mechanic that doesn't add anything to the job. Everything else is working very well.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Now that we can get a lily with cure 2 100% time

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Wait, what? When? Didn't see this in the latest patchnotes. If that's true that's actually good, I can stop spamming Cure in order to prepare a shield for the next fight.

Looking at ff logs speed runs the killer comp is SCH/AST. No surprise there to be honest, it's still the same as in HW because WHM bring no utility.
Given how bad WHM scales with gear I'm willing to bet that even if SE didn't change anything that comp will come back hard in general play once ilvls get higher.

Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Kalayel

Wait, what? When? Didn't see this in the latest patchnotes. If that's true that's actually good, I can stop spamming Cure in order to prepare a shield for the next fight.

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That's correct. Cure 2 will grant you a lily always. And cure 50% which is a lot.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Blablabla

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It means nothing for the moment. Wait and see for Savage/patch 4.05

I've seen a lot of white mages saying recently it's not as bad as we thought. Meanwhile scholars seemed to be taken more by surprise and it's worse then they thought.

I just wish they would stop giving us abilities that not only contradict the jobs feel/identity, but contradict eachother as well.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

I've seen a lot of white mages saying recently it's not as bad as we thought.

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They are better than we thought, but there's a catch.
They're only better until SCH is buffed. WHM still has nothing unique to offer, it still has no utility. They only look so good right now because SCH is a weak they'd rather have the ASTs superbuffed shields over SCHs very mediocre shields and weak pet heals.

After they're inevitably buffed to hell, it's back to AST/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM still has nothing unique to offer

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Except:

The highest sustainable aoe HPS in the game
The highest sustainable single target HPS in the game
Arguably the best aoe burst HPS in the game
The best aoe healer DPS in the game
Joint best single target healer DPS in the game
The best MP conservation in the game by a country mile
Joint best MP recovery in the game
The absolute best healer for 4 man dungeons by a country mile
Significantly less reliant on cooldowns compared to SCH/AST

Your blind hatred of WHM's current state is actually getting rather old now. Open your eyes and wake up already. The job is fantastic fun to play, it's accessible, forgiving and easy to pick up now, but it's unique cooldowns give it a decently high skill ceiling for more advanced players to shine despite it's lack of more complex abilities and mechanics compared to AST and SCH. Yes it got a couple of wonky 'marquee' abilities that are rather lacking right now, but the core kit is so fantastic that frankly I don't care.

I entirely agree that SCH/AST will end up being the speed run kings. But outside of that WHM is very solid and in a far better place than SCH is right now (And for multiple reasons). WHM will offer far more room for recovery during early progression as well as being significantly more forgiving of mistakes within less skilled and experienced groups.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Except:

The highest sustainable aoe HPS in the game
The highest sustainable single target HPS in the game
Arguably the best aoe burst HPS in the game
The best aoe healer DPS in the game
Joint best single target healer DPS in the game
The best MP conservation in the game by a country mile
Joint best MP recovery in the game
The absolute best healer for 4 dungeons by a country mile
Significantly reliant on cooldowns compared to SCH/AST

Your blind hatred of WHM's current state is actually getting rather old now. Open your eyes and wake up already. The job is fantastic fun to play, it's accessible, forgiving and easy to pick up now, but it's unique cooldowns give it a decently high skill ceiling for more advanced players to shine despite it's lack of more complex abilities and mechanics compared to AST and SCH. Yes it got a couple of wonky 'marquee' abilities that are rather lacking right now, but the core kit is so fantastic that frankly I don't care.

I entirely agree that SCH/AST will end up being the speed run kings. But outside of that WHM is very solid and in a far better place than SCH is right now (And for multiple reasons). WHM will offer far more room for recovery during early progression as well as being significantly more forgiving of mistakes within less skilled and experienced groups.

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+1 for full agreement~

I see the potential in WHM/AST but for mad deeps speedrun perspective SCH/AST will be the way to go, based on the way fflogs are looking right now, much to not many surprises. We may see WHM/AST world firsts though because the absolute heal and wipe recovery potential that setup provides can potentially help push raids to the suitability they need at the lowest ilvls to compete for that world first race.

My concern for WHM back in 3.4, which was the concern for many was why bring WHM when AST was better in every way shape or form.

Now with these changes WHM's core identity hasn't changed but it's clearly different from AST now. More MP sustain, less reliance on GCDs, more healing throughput to compete against AST's raw output - that's enough for me to be happy with the changes even if it doesn't make WHM meta. as Sebazy says there are some nuances to the kit that give it a higher skill ceiling - I would even argue WHM now has the highest skill ceiling of the three (though the rewards for playing at that level could arguably use some tweaking). Now players have an option with WHM instead of being "the inferior AST".

If a group of meta shepple won't take a WHM due to "BECUZ META" then that's not a group you want to run with anyway. Generally speaking those type of people don't have the knowledge base or understanding to look beyond "what works the best" at the highest levels of play which not everyone can play at.