WAR OT enmity monger

This has been grinding my gears for some time now. Why is it that whenever I mt and my ot is a WAR, they feel the need to be #2 on the aggro list. I look at the boss to see a newly applied Storm's Eye debuff and a Storm's Path no where to be found. I then look over at the War to see them spamming Storms eye combo, enmity combo, and of course trying to get the triple fell cleave by spamming all their stack skills..
Personally whenever im OT as a WAR i always try to keep those debuffs up and fell cleave in between.

Keeping storm's path up when it's not needed is a dps loss. However spamming butcher's block as OT is also a bad thing since it forces the MT to use their aggro combos (which are dps losses on pld/drk). Ideally you'll spam storm's eye and use storm's path when needed.

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Originally Posted by Flaris

This has been grinding my gears for some time now. Why is it that whenever I mt and my ot is a WAR, they feel the need to be #2 on the aggro list. I look at the boss to see a newly applied Storm's Eye debuff and a Storm's Path no where to be found. I then look over at the War to see them spamming Storms eye combo, enmity combo, and of course trying to get the triple fell cleave by spamming all their stack skills..
Personally whenever im OT as a WAR i always try to keep those debuffs up and fell cleave in between.

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whats worse is ots in like a 50 roullete that stay in tank stance and use butchers makes me have to stay in my tank stance to , but people love butchers block even its better to just eye.

I believe OT wars use the butchers block combo because it has the highest potency. What they don't realize is that using using butchers block means that the Main Tank has to use their enmity combo more often, which means an overall dps loss when both tanks are combined.

Luckily they are fixing this in 3 days by making the aggro combo a universal DPS loss across all tanks, so this issue will be a thing of the past.

Path is still lower potency but because it provides more Beast Gauge, its going to be a gain over Butcher's Block more than likely.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Path is still lower potency but because it provides more Beast Gauge, its going to be a gain over Butcher's Block more than likely.

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It's not that simple actually. For example berserk has 20s duration and 60s cd, so you have 40s between consecutive berserks to build up gauge. In 40s you can do slightly more than 5 combos (possibly 6 depending on sks), so if we assume that you want 100 gauge for the subsequent berserk and 20 gauge to use upheaval (30s cd, so you can use one in every berserk and one between berserks), then you want to get at least 120 gauge between berserks. Getting 120 gauge in 6 combos is possible without path combo. Even if you do eye-path-path-eye-path-eye you'll generate 150 gauge, which leaves you with 30 extra gauge you can only spend on onslaught (fell cleave requires 50 gauge and is less efficient than upheaval in terms of potency/gauge). In that case you can probably do 1-2 butcher's block combo for some extra potency, while still having 10-20 extra gauge you can spend on onslaught.

However I don't have enough faith that most people will notice that spamming butcher's block is a dps loss if you lose upheaval usages. Some people right now use butcher's block even if they lose eye debuff uptime for 1-2 gcds. :(

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

whats worse is ots in like a 50 roullete that stay in tank stance and use butchers makes me have to stay in my tank stance to , but people love butchers block even its better to just eye.

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the simple solution to that is to let them have hate. if they don't learn their lesson, then obviously they want to be MT

And now the pld dps rotation is tied to the no aggro riot combo, but the war dps combo is still BB? I think SE is trolling.......

How do you not hold aggro? The PLD/Drk in my static never loses aggro and I constantly shift back and forth between eye/BB, and thats with him using most his higher DPS abilities.

As long as you're in tank stance and they're in deliverance, you should hardly lose aggro at a very minimal dps loss if any

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

And now the pld dps rotation is tied to the no aggro riot combo, but the war dps combo is still BB? I think SE is trolling.......

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Storms Path is going to be the main means to build up wrath come 4.x, so it may have higher potency, but it doesnt allow more fell cleaves.

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Originally Posted by Areic

How do you not hold aggro? The PLD/Drk in my static never loses aggro and I constantly shift back and forth between eye/BB, and thats with him using most his higher DPS abilities.

As long as you're in tank stance and they're in deliverance, you should hardly lose aggro at a very minimal dps loss if any

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You answered your own question. You're not spaming butcher block, you're using other skills.
(plus the tank can drop tank stance if they have enough lead in threat.)

As the OP said, they see a storm's eye debuff and no storm's path. I've not used storms path in ages for any hard content as it hasn't been required since we very first started AS12. And doing that+BB spam+triple cleave when berserk is up, I can count on one hand the amount times my MT has lost aggro to me ( Usually if I get reckless after a tank swap before they have a chance to get aggro )

If you are a WAR yourself, you can take advantage of them using Storm's Eye and do 2 Butcher's Block combos instead.
Is a DPS gain for you as Maim actually can last that long.

Also - the OT should optimally be second in hate in case you, the MT, die.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Storms Path is going to be the main means to build up wrath come 4.x, so it may have higher potency, but it doesnt allow more fell cleaves.

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Well that's good to hear. Tbh, I haven't really followed what's going on with war, but it's really looking like pld's patch this go round in the MT department.

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Originally Posted by Areic

As the OP said, they see a storm's eye debuff and no storm's path. I've not used storms path in ages for any hard content as it hasn't been required since we very first started AS12. And doing that+BB spam+triple cleave when berserk is up, I can count on one hand the amount times my MT has lost aggro to me ( Usually if I get reckless after a tank swap before they have a chance to get aggro )

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Because they're sitting in their "tank stance" so of course you're not ripping aggro. Now if you were to go in with a DRK or PLD that actually cared about their DPS and the raid's DPS, you would not be able to BB spam because it is a raid DPS loss. Other tanks sacrifice more potency from using their aggro combo than you sacrifice from not using yours.

Like I said though, this is all moot in a few days and really only applies to 3.x rotations.

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Originally Posted by Areic

As long as you're in tank stance

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That's your answer. If your drk only does 1 power slash out of grit after you pull the boss then you'll rip it sooner or later even with not a single butcher's block, since your dps is naturally higher than the drk (assuming equally skilled and geared). That's where shadewalker comes in, but that still won't let you use butcher's block without forcing them to do another power slash.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Also - the OT should optimally be second in hate in case you, the MT, die.

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Optimally the MT doesn't die.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

That's your answer. If your drk only does 1 power slash out of grit after you pull the boss then you'll rip it sooner or later even with not a single butcher's block, since your dps is naturally higher than the drk (assuming equally skilled and geared). That's where shadewalker comes in, but that still won't let you use butcher's block without forcing them to do another power slash.

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OP never said the warriors were in tank stance, and most I run into don't try to be unless it's some stupid 24 man where the other tanks have to have a big E-peen about having aggro. Generally OT should be #2 on the aggro list, and as of 3.0 patches warriors do far more DPS than the other two. For AS9 which was an easier fight and even with me on bombs I could pull upward of 2k DPS, just a few hundred below our lowest DPS. So generally the MT will sacrifice some time in tank stance to hold aggro, and still do just fine. On that same fight our paladin pulled 1.5-1.6k DPs

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Originally Posted by Areic

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Posts like this almost make me wanna go tell all the emo doomsaying WARs complaining about their "nerfs" that they bloody deserve it, and kick 'em while they're down. 2 years of this entitled way of thinking has been a plague on the meta.

WAR should not be #2 in aggro unless there are tank swaps happening.

WAR is also not "far" ahead of either tank. If slashing is up WAR does like 2% more DPS than DRK, and ~5% more than PLD. Your PLD could have been doing 18K if you were not forcing him to turtle up in ShO, and you would have lost like, 10DPS.

I'm sorry but if you are going to tout your personal DPS numbers like this people are going to point out how you are mathematically incorrect for doing so, and were gimping your raid's global DPS because you consider yourself so "far ahead" of your co-tanks.

What's all this talk about the OT needing to be 2nd on the aggro list? Isn't that what provoke's for?

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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The hell are you talking about? I've always just done as my raid asked, I never even knew optimal HW rotation until my MT started talking to me and we worked it out together. The safest DPS to emnity gain without overtaking the MT for us has been an alternate Storm's eye into BB combo and back and forth. There's no "hurting" global raid DPS, the only one in our raid that has ever been effected in the slightest is our MT, and for a large chunk of savage fight durations he has to stay in shield oath or grit anyway, especially AS12.

Even in fights tank stance isn't required much like AS10 and we both only pop into it for the tank swaps, warrior numbers for that fight were at 1.8k typically on a relaxed night while PLD numbers were at around 1.5-1.6k. And doing this type of rotation has always been safe, always accepted by the raid. It just sounds to me like people are either A: Getting half retarded warriors who only BB in tank stance while being the OT for god knows what reason but I've never seen it, or B: Just can't hold aggro or accept they might need to be in tank stance a tiny bit longer. Stance dancing is also a thing, I've risked losing aggro while MT'ing before and will quickly switch back for 1-2 BB combos then back to deliverance

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

What's all this talk about the OT needing to be 2nd on the aggro list? Isn't that what provoke's for?

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They think they "need" to be second in aggro because that's what they are accustomed to in groups where they spam BB combos and force their MT to sit in defensive stance, and then, in spite of being in defensive stance all the time, their MT is dying for whatever unfathomable reason, so its being justified further as insurance that the boss won't go to one of their DPS. -_-

This is why outside of raid I MT as War an let whoever i find to OT, all i need is Skill sunder in defiance an done i wont lose aggro unless someone else provoke.
now if im OT an i see MT on tank stance an not droping it like 90% of tanks in DF then is a butcher block festival.

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Originally Posted by Areic

he has to stay in shield oath or grit anyway

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I didn't read past here because the only appropriate response at this point is "Except that he doesn't."

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Optimally the MT doesn't die.

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Optimally. However, it happens. Anywhere from 24 mans to savage raids. Prog, cutting it close in a speed run, people getting careless, new players who don't know how to time a heal or cooldown, there's any number of reasons. There are certain fights where you absolutely want to be second in hate as OT because if the MT goes down and the boss so much as looks at the healer they will die and that can cascade into a wipe.

When I'm partied with my co tank I keep Eye up and usually alternate between Eye and BB combo unless I'm cutting it so close I have to alternate between Eye and Path. But we've been tanking stuff together for a while and he's very skilled, there's only one or two times I've accidentally ripped off him (usually in A10S).

Anyhow it's academic at this point, rotations are going to change in Stormblood and Path will have a higher Beast Gauge value. Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I didn't read past here because the only appropriate response at this point is "Except that he doesn't."

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Don't read it then, if you don't want to discuss with actual information and just be rude about it you be you man.

This is how we've always done it safely with our raid comp, and how I always see it done without any complaints, nor have I ever heard complaint from any pug tank doing my usual DPS rotation

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Originally Posted by Areic

OP never said the warriors were in tank stance, and most I run into don't try to be unless it's some stupid 24 man where the other tanks have to have a big E-peen about having aggro. Generally OT should be #2 on the aggro list, and as of 3.0 patches warriors do far more DPS than the other two. For AS9 which was an easier fight and even with me on bombs I could pull upward of 2k DPS, just a few hundred below our lowest DPS. So generally the MT will sacrifice some time in tank stance to hold aggro, and still do just fine. On that same fight our paladin pulled 1.5-1.6k DPs

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Well actually if we're talking about optimizing tank dps the war will be pulling the boss anyway so it's kinda moot to argue about aggro catching up. With war pulling both tanks don't have to be in tank stance and both tanks will pull similar number of dps. In a9s drk should even have higher dps than war, due to salted earth and dark passenger on adds, since war shouldn't decimate. The dps loss on the boss is huge going from 500 potency fell cleave to 280 decimate, and the adds don't need to die very fast anyway, letting dots kill them slowly is better.

Things will change in 4.0 but as of now war should be pulling the boss while pld/drk should be doing their dps openers, before provoking the boss off the war later into the fight. In that case even a single butcher's block would mess up their aggro and they have to use power slash or halone more than once.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Optimally. However, it happens. Anywhere from 24 mans to savage raids. Prog, cutting it close in a speed run, people getting careless, new players who don't know how to time a heal or cooldown, there's any number of reasons. There are certain fights where you absolutely want to be second in hate as OT because if the MT goes down and the boss so much as looks at the healer they will die and that can cascade into a wipe.

When I'm partied with my co tank I keep Eye up and usually alternate between Eye and BB combo unless I'm cutting it so close I have to alternate between Eye and Path. But we've been tanking stuff together for a while and he's very skilled, there's only one or two times I've accidentally ripped off him (usually in A10S).

Anyhow it's academic at this point, rotations are going to change in Stormblood and Path will have a higher Beast Gauge value. Please look forward to it.

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I'm just nitpicking on your usage of "optimal" there. You can't play optimally if the war doesn't pull the boss, and in that case the (temporary) OT would be either a pld/drk, so forcing them to spam aggro combo just to be #2 on the aggro list is a huge waste of dps. Even if the MT dies you can just provoke and follow up with your aggro combo, or if the situation is bad enough you can go into tank stance. After a tank swap the war should naturally be #2 unless something happens (like timegates in a12s resetting their aggro).

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

snipper

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On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

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Originally Posted by Areic

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

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This is because you force your mt to stay in tank stance while you use butcher's block. Optimally you would pull with unchained, then your pld/drk would provoke after a bit and tank the rest in dps stance, with you also in dps stance, only using storm's eye in order to not build aggro. It's also because, especially for drk, using their enmity combo is a dps loss. This is how you optimize tank dps.

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Originally Posted by Areic

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12. This has usually let me get in a big burst opener with our DRG/nin damage increases+my berserk and triple fel cleave while keeping consistent damage from therein. And all the bosses took us very little time to clear, I believe we downed AS9-10 in two weeks raiding two days two hours a week, then AS11 and AS12 took us about 2-3 weeks each doing so casually. Set-up has always seemed pretty optimal to us and we skip a lot of mechanics

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What works for you is great. Keep at it with your static.

But, what's optimal isn't up for debate. There is hard math and world-first raiders supporting actual optimal play.

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Originally Posted by Areic

On current content, I don't believe I've ever pulled boss, and we usually run PLD/War for AS9-10 then DRK for 11-12.

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Well if it works for you then good for you, there's nothing wrong with not using the most optimal strat. With a ninja you can pull the boss by doing tomahawk > equilibrium > deliverance, followed by your "OT" opener, while your pld can do their opener without shield oath or halone combo. There's no argument this would give higher total dps. This probably would change in 4.0 but just to let you know that there's a better way to maximize group dps (not your own dps). Even without ninja you can infuriate > unchained > tomahawk and lose one fell cleave in your opener, while still having higher total dps than letting your pld pull in shield oath.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I'm just nitpicking on your usage of "optimal" there.

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Again, this is something that's going to change in two days due to being unable to infuriate outside of battle, please look forward to it~

Good to know you're nitpicking, that pretty much closes the discussion for me, thank you.

OP was asking questions that sounded duty finder based, and I answered on that basis. You're replying with static and savage level meta.

The mt shouldnt have to stay in tank stance in order to keep aggro from their war ot. each time the BB combo is used their enmity will increase, its also their highest potency combo so it makes sense why to use it. However if youre a drk/pld and using your dps combos in this scenario, you'll eventually have to use your (lower potency) enmity combo or switch to tank stance in order to keep aggro. The difference between Storms eye and BB is only 10 potency so is it really worth in the long run if the pld/drk mt is forced into their tank stance/enmity combo?

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

OP was asking questions that sounded duty finder based, and I answered on that basis. You're replying with static and savage level meta.

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Optimal and DF don't go well together lol. Tbh I still wouldn't bother staying #2 aggro since you can just provoke after the MT dies but if you think that increases your safety net, suit yourself. As long as you just stay #2 slightly above the highest dps/healer I wouldn't bother even if I'm your MT, but if you overuse your enmity combo then it's your fault if you steal aggro from the MT.