Change to Surecast

Surecast is one of the abilities that can be argued to be better in theory than in practice.

A change I'd like to see to Surecast is the ability to induct while we move, which would GREATLY improve the usefulness of Surecast.

That's been brought up before. That's a ghetto swift cast. I like the idea of what it is becoming in SB: Ghetto Tampered Will/Rouse on yourself. <3

They had to make it a competitor for one the five slots, which would already almost guarantee a need for Swiftcast. The way to do that is not simply to make it an inferior Swiftcast.

I for one like the change. I feel like it's more power than it deserves, were mechanics more frequent and/or the meta more balanced, but for the time being it looks like a good addition to the lineup.

The problem is that there's too much competition for the other slots. Compared to DPS classes, healers have more mandatory cross class to take such as Protect, Lucid Dream (for MP), Swiftcast, Esuna (if the battle requires something to be dispelled). And then we have Largesse that is better than every other cross class we have and there's no choice at all. Most of the time we will pick the same. Probably Cleric for DPS increase but still.

How I feel about it will be greatly affected by how the wording pans out.

Does it remove sleep and stun similar to Tempered Will in addition to negating knockback and draw-in or does it only prevent the application of them?
Does it last until you begin to cast a spell, a spellcast is completed, or the full 10s all the time?

Because if it doesn't remove stun and sleep and only lasts until you begin to cast a spell, while situationally useful will basically mean doing nothing until the thing you want to avoid happens.
On the other hand, if it removes sleep and stun and prevents interruption of one cast but makes you immune to sleep, stun, knockback, and draw-in effects for a full 10s then casters will likely be able to avoid those effects 100% of the time, which would be amazing in fights like levi ex or sophia ex.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

The problem is that there's too much competition for the other slots. Compared to DPS classes, healers have more mandatory cross class to take such as Protect, Lucid Dream (for MP), Swiftcast, Esuna (if the battle requires something to be dispelled). And then we have Largesse that is better than every other cross class we have and there's no choice at all. Most of the time we will pick the same. Probably Cleric for DPS increase but still.

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We have to revaluate the current mandatory skills. WHM might not even need Protect, Cleric Stance, or Largesse, and Thin Air might be so good that even Lucid Dreaming might only be needed in fights that are going to be drawn out.

Currently for WHM, the only true cross skill they need is swiftcast. Eye4eye has a longer CD than SCH, and regen and medica 2 can still do their job without it. Virus is also weaker. Blizzard 2? Sure, if there is a DRK in the party preventing you from casting Holy. Situations requiring Surecast are few to the point of needless. Physick? We have Cure, which we hardly use anyway.

WHM actually seems to be in line to benefit the most because previously, it benefited the least from the cross class system. It's the other two healers I am worried about, particularly SCH since I don't play AST yet.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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Blizz2, Physick, and Virus aren't role abilities for healers come SB. E4E is going to be that same across all healers.

So yeah, we only have what? 10 role abilities to pick from? A heavy, heal buff, protect, e4e, cleric stance, mp regen, esuna, Swiftcast, Surecast, and teleport allies?

Heavy is a niche pick.
Heal Buff is reliable.
Protect is only needed on one healer (good for 4man).
E4E is whatever.
Cleric Stance is bonus damage, but is god awful now. (+5% damage for 15 seconds on a 60 sec cd or something)
MP Regen is never bad.
Esuna is good to have regardless if it is required.
Swiftcast is OP.
Surecast is niche or useless.
Teleporting allies is either a niche or troll pick.

So pretty much you have Swiftcast, MP Regen, and Heal Buff for your first three since they are easily the most useful.

So no, WHM still benefits the least. We lost like 5 spells that we now have to give up role ability slots just to get back (protect, esuna, cleric stance, mp buff, mp regen), and we lost our heavy on Stone.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Blizz2, Physick, and Virus aren't role abilities for healers come SB. E4E is going to be that same across all healers.

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I know that. That comment represents the hear and now, and leads into the following statements I made.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

So pretty much you have Swiftcast, MP Regen, and Heal Buff for your first three since they are easily the most useful.

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Again, we DON'T know how useful these abilities will be for WHM come SBs release. Swiftcast will always remain mandatory because of our ability to raise, and it is just so useful in nearly every situation you can think of. It will never be OP so long as its CD duration remains the same. MP regen and heal buff may very well be situational since WHM has so much ogcd healing ability, and Thin air along with 60sec assize may very well negate the need for MP restoration.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

So no, WHM still benefits the least. We lost like 5 spells that we now have to give up role ability slots just to get back (protect, esuna, cleric stance, mp buff, mp regen), and we lost our heavy on Stone.

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5 spells we now have to give up role slots for? Cleric Stance (1), Protect (2), Divine Seal (3), Shroud of Saints (4). Am I missing any? We'll reduce it to three since Cleric Stance is now basically worthless until they buff it. Scratch out Protect as well (worse case scenario you cast it, and then exchange it for something else). You know have DS and SoS back (assuming you even need them), and along with Swiftcast leaves you with two open slots.

Too many peeps seeing the glass as half empty with WHM, when nothing was really taken from them. The only thing I feel was taken was Divine Seal solely for the reason because the other two healers already have/had abilities to increase their healing output. SCH retains both Fey Illumination AND Dissipation. Should we include Rouse as well? I can't speak for AST, but I do know that taking DS from us (A WHM specific ability!) was complete and total bullshit. I won't forgive the devs for that one. Fucking ever!

To be honest guys I don't understand the tooltip of the new surecast at all, can you use it "WHILST" under those negative effects or do you have to use it before even being inflicted with them...it's honestly confusing to me.

I think the problem with Surecast is that it's hard to know the exact moment you'll need it. Let's say there's a knockback mechanic and you pop the new and improved Surecast in Stormblood. Because of the fact that your own cast time, the boss' cast time and latency are all factors, you're pretty likely to miss-time it so that you get your spell off fine, your Surecast is wasted and then you get knocked back anyway. Or, you wait too long and your spell gets interrupted by the knockback and you never had the chance to use Surecast because of the way your GCDs lined up on this particular run.

If Surecast made it so that you got a ~5 second buff that prevent any casts from being interrupted, it's be a lot easier to use because it'd give you more leeway with cast times and latency.

there's a video of me trying to heal thordan normal and my healing kept getting interrupted. i didn't notice i had a paralysis debuff on. i put surecast on and still got interrupted. it was 10 seconds of confusion and rage.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

i didn't notice i had a paralysis debuff on.

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That's not a problem with Surecast, though.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

That's not a problem with Surecast, though.

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I know it's not, jesus. It was just an entertaining little story. The new Surecast can prevent situations like that in the future (not the exact one though, I don't think it works on Paralysis.)

There hadn't been many mechanics that really made someone say "I better have Surecast in my skill chest" lately. Midas Savage, A7S bombs was probably the last time it was even somewhat useful, and even then it wasn't required. Back in ARR, interrupt casts were bit more prevalent where you would want to heal. Like the early trio of extreme primals Garuda and Infrit EX. To Binding Coil Turn 5, where the conflag going off would interrupt your cast. Surecast+Cure III never fails.

I figured if they decided to keep it around they are pondering on keeping interrupt cast mechanics in the game.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

To be honest guys I don't understand the tooltip of the new surecast at all, can you use it "WHILST" under those negative effects or do you have to use it before even being inflicted with them...it's honestly confusing to me.

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The thing about sleep and stun is you are disabled for the duration of the effect. So you couldn't use it under these conditions. It has to be used prior to avoid the effect.

As of right now, if you are in midcast and you get slept or stunned, it will interrupt your cast. After the update, this will no longer happen since you are immune from sleep, stun, knockback, and draw-in effects for 10 seconds. Knockback and draw-in effects by themselves won't disable you. There are usually additional mechanics that do this. However, they will interrupt your cast by the nature of moving you from the spot you began your cast. Under the effect of Surecast, enemies will no longer be able to do this to you for 10 seconds or you cast a spell.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The thing about sleep and stun is you are disabled for the duration of the effect. So you couldn't use it under these conditions. It has to be used prior to avoid the effect.

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We don't know this for sure. The way the new tooltip is worded I think that it will keep a cast from being interrupted OR act as a breakout from sleep/stun/etc

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The thing about sleep and stun is you are disabled for the duration of the effect. So you couldn't use it under these conditions. It has to be used prior to avoid the effect.

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Purify in PvP can be used regardless of status affliction. Of course, the tooltip says "Can be used regardless of status affliction."

Nice to see it being updated to something useful, although I will miss the old Surecast. There's nothing like being able to prevent the next cast from being interrupted, unless something happens that interrupts it.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

The problem is that there's too much competition for the other slots. Compared to DPS classes, healers have more mandatory cross class to take such as Protect, Lucid Dream (for MP), Swiftcast, Esuna (if the battle requires something to be dispelled). And then we have Largesse that is better than every other cross class we have and there's no choice at all. Most of the time we will pick the same. Probably Cleric for DPS increase but still.

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Pretty much this.

It's one reason I am the least looking forward to leveling a healer. They have so many of their core abilities resold as cross class (with WHM obviously taking the worst hit of all, but that's another topic altogether). There's not much choice, and the slightest illusion of choice is things like Esuna, meaning you'll swap it out on a per fight basis, which sounds tedious and not fun. Somehow, in the process of trying to streamline their systems, they managed to bloat up the healers with trivial tedium.

I don't understand why protect exists in PvE, unless you wanted to turn it into a physical Apoc. Healers will always just turn it off and replace with an ability like cleric stance or swiftcast so they dont suffer the gcd cd penalty. How did leaving it cut button bloat? e.e

Casters have oodles of flexibility for role skills. Assuming you aren't going BLM, you probably wont need Diversion (Lol BLM openers too op.) You have only TWO mandatory picks. Swiftcast and Lucid Dream.

Addle would almost always be my third choice, but Surecast is pretty great. TIP: especially to the BLMs trying to maintain enochain, using swiftcast after surecast will not consume surecast's buff, so you can get an additional couple seconds of debuff immunity if you need it.
Apoc if I'm running something that's clearly magic intensive or Erase if a debuff will be hitting the healer.

What I'll be using in a standard dungeon comp:
Swiftcast
Lucid Dream
Addle
Apoc
Surecast

What I'll be using when i do a 1 RDM, 2 DPS, 1 TANK comp [rdm healer]

Swiftcast
Lucid Dream
Addle
Apoc
Erase.

I'm not sure if I'll bring manashift into raid content, having to not only raise, but give up 20% of your mana as well? Who knows might be fun. xD Manashift to replace surecast or apoc, depending on if there are interrupts or heavy mdmg.

Overall, SE was very kind to casters.

Just a cute thought at level 60. SMN raises the Healer, RDM tops them off with a Vercure and BLM sends them some MP with mana shift while under Umbral Ice... lol imagine how pampered and cared for that healer would feel. *Insert tiny whm lalafell tears of happiness*

If only that Surecast was there during Sophia.
I guess it'll make unsync bird farm even easier.

It should also completly negate any fight with some strong KB mechanics. Leviathan, Titan, Sophia... So I can see people taking it for some encounters.
Swiftcast, Protect, Largesse, and Lucid Dreaming are the 4 mandatory ones. With Protect being the only one which can be swapped... But most people won't bother.
So, it leaves one slot for utility:
- Cleric is shit if the effect stays the same,
- E4E is good since the loss of Storm Path so it'll probably be the default choice,
- Esuna will replace E4E as a default choice if the healer is going blind into a duty, or it'll be mandatory for duties with debuffs that must be cleansed,
- Surecast is for KB heavy fight only (or maybe some other mechanics that we don't know about, like raidwide sleep or something)
- Rescue is troll pick, or for raiders who might be able to cheese some mechanics with it

So yeah, even if Surecast is weak compared to E4E and Esuna, it might replace them from time to time. Bad skill, but not completly useless.