DEV Request: Please do not make DRK a 1-2-3 like PLD was

I know things have already been decided or are still in the works. People complained about PLD only being 1-2-3 combo....and it seems DRK knight is being made into this in 4.0 Please give us back delirium as our finisher please. I hate to leave tanking b/c of this.

I think it's a little late for requests

if you dont DA SE then it's the old delirium combo ,
I dont see how dark knight became 1-2-3 because of this change

the only thing that changed is losing delirium intelligence debuff and animation

I personally feel the reactions of "we're going to be 1-2-3 bots now that we lost the Delerium combo" are greatly exaggerated.

With being able to DA two of the three weapon-skills of the SE combo, that single combo ends up having multiple variations which I feel is cooler and more complex than an additional 3-part combo that is only one button-press different. Also, with the debuffs being removed from combos, the Delerium combo lost its point and became unnecessary/redundant.

A post I made about this in another thread goes into a bit more detail.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

This is an interesting point.

While the Delerium combo was removed, the Soul Eater combo itself has multiple variations that can be performed since not only can you DA the Soul Eater ability but now also Syphon Strike, giving potentially 3 viable variants; No DA combo, DA -> SE combo, DA -> SS+SE combo.

I think it would be awesome and a good idea if the DA effect for Syphon Strike not only increased potency but also had a "give X resource" effect as well such as adding to the blood gauge or a mp refresh for Y seconds. That way it would add a 4th viable variant of DAing just Syphon for that resource gain if you decide you would prefer that over the heal from Soul Eater. Either that or give it a slight potency edge over a DAed SE so you have the options of dps or defense/self-heal.

Something like this would add complexity to a single combo and more than make up for the loss of the Delerium combo.

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Originally Posted by Kaiden019

I think it's a little late for requests

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A combat designer 5 weeks ago: "It's never too late to cripple a job's gameplay!"

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Originally Posted by itti18

if you dont DA SE then it's the old delirium combo ,
I dont see how dark knight became 1-2-3 because of this change

the only thing that changed is losing delirium intelligence debuff and animation

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There's a 500 potency attack called "Scourge" that would disagree with your assessment (RIP Scourge :().

Besides, you should be using DA+SE periodically anyway.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

With being able to DA two of the three weapon-skills of the SE combo, that single combo ends up having multiple variations which I feel is cooler and more complex than an additional 3-part combo that is only one button-press different.

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That would be true if Dark Arts didn't have the exact same effect on Syphon Strike and Soul Eater.
Basically, wether you do HS > DA+SS > SE or HS > SS > DA+SE, you're doing the same overall damage. And since SE grants HP with Grit on, you'll basically always chose HS > SS > DA+SE.
Of course, you can do HS > DA+SS > DA+SE but it still only adds damage.

Like I said on another topic, if would be cool if Syphon Strike and Soul Eater have a different effect wether you use Dark Arts or not. Syphon could still HP instead og MP and Soul Eater could have two new additionnal effects.
That would really give you more variations with only 3 skills.

For there to be no combo rotation / priority at all is overkill.

This topic keeps coming up, for some reason.

In 3.x, the delirium combo has 227 average potency/gcd. The base SE combo has 220 average potency/gcd. The power slash combo has 223 average potency/gcd. As you can see, you never use the base SE combo. The reason why SE exists is so that you can, at one specific point in your combo cycle, use DA as a 120 potency oGCD. If you accidentally hit SE without activating SE, you just lose dps.

In 4.0, the base SE combo potency has been boosted to 227 average potency/gcd, identical to your old delirium combo. The new base SE combo, which you never previously used, is now functionally identical to the delirium combo. The only thing that has changed is that you can use DA as a 140 potency oGCD combo at any point in your cycle. The reason that this is changed is because MP no longer drains in Darkside, so you will have to actively work significantly harder to burn off extra MP in order to ensure that you do not cap, especially when BW is up.

Here's another point worth considering. In 3.x, PLD gains 5-6% extra average damage reduction in physical fights from block procs. DRK gains about the same in single target from Reprisal procs. WAR makes up with self-healing and baseline parry bonuses (because yeah, axe fencing is the vogue nowadays). With the change to block in 4.0, and the loss of the old Reprisal, you can expect DRK and WAR to take more damage on average. WAR's combo changes force more SP usage, offsetting this with more consistent self-healing. The DRK combo changes do something similar, as long as you're in Grit, as more SE combos give you more lifesteal. The one problem is that this doesn't help you out of Grit.

Maybe if you ask the devs, they'll let you glamour Delirium's animation back in, like the SMN Egi-Glamours (I'd definitely glamour Scourge on to something if this happened). But functionally, it was a beneficial change on several levels.

I don't think you're getting the base argument here. It is still, regardless, one combo now. Hard Slash combo is nearly never used, and now we don't even have to think between using DA SE and Delirium. It's one combo. They could have done it better, and given us incentive to use the Hard Slash combo (maybe add a mini version of Scourge to it). Anything to prevent the bore that is our rotation now. And if BN and BS remain GCD's then that creates even more issues and even more boredom.

A year and a half to figure this out and having this be the end result is flat out lazy.

This is kind of a silly complaint.

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

In SB, DRK effectively has the following combo options:

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

You can make an argument that you liked specific things about DRK's combos in HW that aren't present in their SB combos, or that you think their SB combos aren't interesting, or whatever - but the meaningful variations DRK has on its combos have increased, not decreased.

Edit: Likewise, going from being able to use Scourge in between your complete combos, and being able to use Bloodspiller in between any two weaponskills, possibly consecutively, can hardly be described as a decrease in complexity or depth (it remains to be seen whether it can be fairly described as a decrease in efficacy).

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Originally Posted by Decederes

I don't think you're getting the base argument here. It is still, regardless, one combo now. Hard Slash combo is nearly never used

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By raiders and hardcore players, which are the minority.

The vast majority of DRK's use Hard Slash combo enough to justify it's existence.

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Originally Posted by Crater

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

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No, it hasn't. You dont't use Delirium only when you couldn't DA-SE, because DPS is not the only focus. In heavy magic fights, the INT down from Delirium is useful.

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Originally Posted by Crater

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

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2) is a bad option, because 2) and 3) have the exact same average, and if you're hoping for a crit on one WS, it's better to use the highest GCD potency available, which is Soul Eater. And the choice between all those comboes are the amount of MP you can spend, like past SE combo. Basically, you lost one degree of complexity from not having to maintain the additionnal effect of delirium.

To be clear, the issue is not really the number of combos, it's the number of purpose.
WAR will use BB for enmity, Eye for Slashing debuff and Path from buiding Beast.
PLD will use RoH for enmity, GB for DoT and RA for instant DPS
DRK will use PS for enmity and every other combo for pure DPS

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Originally Posted by Decederes

I don't think you're getting the base argument here. It is still, regardless, one combo now. Hard Slash combo is nearly never used

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That may be changing with the serious reduction in tank enmity generation relative to dps/healers. Just spamming the dps rotation might not be enough to hold hate even in tank stance. You may need to occasionally toss in a RoH/PS/BB combo in order to keep hate.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

To be clear, the issue is not really the number of combos, it's the number of purpose.
WAR will use BB for enmity, Eye for Slashing debuff and Path from buiding Beast.
PLD will use RoH for enmity, GB for DoT and RA for instant DPS
DRK will use PS for enmity and every other combo for pure DPS

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I'd argue that the situation is slightly different than what you make it out to be.

Paladin has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (FB -> SB -> RoH) and a dps combo (FB -> RB -> GB/RA) that is modifiable based on current needs.
Warrior has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (HS -> SS -> BB) and a "dps" combo (HS -> Maim -> SE/SP) that is modifiable based on current needs.
Dark Knight has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (HS -> SpS -> PS) and a dps combo (HS -> SyS -> SE) both modifiable based on current needs.

All 3 tanks have 6 buttons for their combos (Dark Art being considered part of the Dark Knight's combo suite for this purpose).

All the more reason for Power Slash to be improved.

As I said:

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You can make an argument that you liked specific things about DRK's combos in HW that aren't present in their SB combos, or that you think their SB combos aren't interesting, or whatever - but the meaningful variations DRK has on its combos have increased, not decreased.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it hasn't. You dont't use Delirium only when you couldn't DA-SE, because DPS is not the only focus. In heavy magic fights, the INT down from Delirium is useful.

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And this is exactly the sort of thing I was attempting to head off at the pass with that remark. There are still only two viable combo options for HW DRK, compared to four for SB DRK, regardless of how many use cases there are for each of those combos, or how many reasons you can come up with to use one over another.

However, for this point specifically, this is mostly placing importance on something that never actually was important. Past the first 2-3 combos of a fight (and past the first 2-3 combos after any significant length of disengagement from the boss), Delirium's INT debuff has pretty much full uptime. It isn't adding significant depth to the class, because it's basically always there when you need it, whether you make a special effort to keep it there or not. And there are startlingly few places where it was important to have it up during the first 2-3 combos of a fight (or the first 2-3 combos after a disengagement) - That's important basically once per raid tier, and even then only really important during very early progression (eg: Week 1-3, it was very important to have Delirium up on Alexander Prime after his Time Stop, for the Mega Holy. Past that, not so much, and that was really the only time it ever made a difference in all of Creator).

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2) is a bad option, because 2) and 3) have the exact same average, and if you're hoping for a crit on one WS, it's better to use the highest GCD potency available, which is Soul Eater.

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This is faulty math.

Assuming a 150% damage critical hit, the effective potency of a Syphon Strike is 375, and the effective potency of a Dark Arts Syphon Strike is 585 - Dark Arts has added 210 potency to your critical hit.

Assuming the same, the effective potency of a critical Souleater is 420, and the effective potency of a Dark Arts Souleater is 630 - Dark Arts has added 210 potency to your critical hit.

Just for fun, the effective potency of a critical Bloodspiller is 570, and the effective potency of a Dark Arts Bloodspiller is 780 - Again, Dark Arts has added 210 potency to your critical hit.

You can "hope" all you want that your one-crit-of-three lands on Souleater, as you should - but the chances of a crit are equal between all weaponskills, your chances of using Dark Arts on the weaponskill that lands a critical hit is equal no matter which you use it on, and the damage you gain by guessing correctly and using DA on the one that crits is equal, no matter which weaponskill you use it on. There is no bias, as far as Dark Arts is concerned, toward any one weapon skill or another, in general.

If, on the other hand, Trick Attack, or Balance, or Battle Litany, or Chain Stratagem, or Brotherhood, or any other team buff, is going to wear off after your Syphon Strike but before your Souleater, a Dark Arts on Syphon Strike will inherit all of those bonuses. Likewise, if team buffs go up after Syphon Strike but before Souleater, those bonuses will be reflected in your Dark Arts only if you use it for Souleater, and if team buffs are up through your entire combo but will end afterward, then stacking them together and using Dark Arts consecutively on both will maximize the damage gained from your DA. Or, for that matter, even if there aren't team buffs in play, being able to use DA on Syphon Strike can allow you to avoid capping out on MP, while simultaneously leaving you with a much smaller window in which you'll be missing the MP from your previous DA, allowing you to more easily take advantage of Blood Weapon's MP gains without having to dump MP like you're bailing out a leaky rowboat just to avoid capping out.

The ability to more easily take advantage of buffs, and to fit many more Dark Arts-boosted attacks inside of those windows, is where SB DRK is going to be getting much of its complexity.

There are certainly some concerns about the Stormblood incarnation of DRK as we understand it from the information we have - but overall class and combo complexity is emphatically not one of those concerns, as both of them are objectively a marked improvement over their Heavensward counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Paladin has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (FB -> SB -> RoH) and a dps combo (FB -> RB -> GB/RA) that is modifiable based on current needs.
Warrior has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (HS -> SS -> BB) and a "dps" combo (HS -> Maim -> SE/SP) that is modifiable based on current needs.
Dark Knight has "2" weaponskill combos: An Enmity combo (HS -> SpS -> PS) and a dps combo (HS -> SyS -> SE) both modifiable based on current needs.

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You can't count GB/RA or SE/SP as "one modifiable" combo because their difference has a huge impact on how you plan your rotation.
On the other hand DRK has basically no rotation at all. They just spam the same combo over and over.

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Originally Posted by Crater

There are still only two viable combo options for HW DRK, compared to four for SB DRK, regardless of how many use cases there are for each of those combos, or how many reasons you can come up with to use one over another.

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Counting Dark Arts increase as a whole new combo is like saying that PLD have new combos because they can FoF-GB, FoF-RA,FoF-RoH
Or worse, that WAR has a ridiculous number of combos depending on wether or not they use Berserk, or have Maim and/or Storm's Eye running.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

This is faulty math.

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No, it's not. If you count the average potency, you'll end up higher with HS -> non-crit-SS -> crit-DA-SE than HS -> crit-DA-SS -> non-crit-SE.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't count GB/RA or SE/SP as "one modifiable" combo because their difference has a huge impact on how you plan your rotation.
On the other hand DRK has basically no rotation at all. They just spam the same combo over and over.

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When you get down to it a Paladin's core DpS rotation is spamming the RA combo unless you need to reapply GB which you just replace a RA with.
When you get down to it a Warrior's core DpS rotation is spamming the SP combo unless you need to reapply SE which you just replace a SP with.
When you get down to it a Dark Knight's core DpS rotation is spamming the SE combo unless unless you have excess MP so that you augment SS or SE with DA.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not. If you count the average potency, you'll end up higher with HS -> non-crit-SS -> crit-DA-SE than HS -> crit-DA-SS -> non-crit-SE.

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That is faulty math because the gain from a crit DA will be the same no matter which attack crit. Dark arts is additive not multiplicative.

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Originally Posted by Crater

This is kind of a silly complaint.

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

In SB, DRK effectively has the following combo options:

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

You can make an argument that you liked specific things about DRK's combos in HW that aren't present in their SB combos, or that you think their SB combos aren't interesting, or whatever - but the meaningful variations DRK has on its combos have increased, not decreased.

Edit: Likewise, going from being able to use Scourge in between your complete combos, and being able to use Bloodspiller in between any two weaponskills, possibly consecutively, can hardly be described as a decrease in complexity or depth (it remains to be seen whether it can be fairly described as a decrease in efficacy).

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Goddamn right！

With MP draining you had to pay attention to how often you were using DA SE before. Now, not so much. It's the same potency whether you're using DA SS, DA SE, or DA both. It's just about where it is in the fight. If you end the fight at 100 MP, and you DA'd as much as you could, it doesn't change anything. Now if SS had a bit less potency boost but the additional effect from DA was +120 pot and maybe +15/20 additional MP drained then we'd have to make a choice based on the phase/length of the fight. Is it long enough to get another DA worth of MP? Etc. Just ways to change it up a little so it isn't brain dead. As it stands now... it's use DA as much as you can on any skill since it's all the same potency increase until the fight is over. 1-2-DA3 and repeat until MP is depleted. You need NO DA SS's if DA SE spam is enough to run your MP dry by fights end.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

When you get down to it a Paladin's core DpS rotation is spamming the RA combo unless you need to reapply GB which you just replace a RA with.
When you get down to it a Warrior's core DpS rotation is spamming the SP combo unless you need to reapply SE which you just replace a SP with.
When you get down to it a Dark Knight's core DpS rotation is spamming the SE combo unless unless you have excess MP so that you augment SS or SE with DA.

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Dark Arts still doesn't change how you manage your combos. You still lose one degree of complexity compared to HW by never asking "Do I need HP ?"

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Crit is multiplicative...

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DA only adds 140 potency. 140 becomes 210 when it crits with at 1.5 multiplier. The gain on DA during a Crit is the same no matter which of SS, SE or BS gets augmented. 140 potency will get an addition 70 potency when it crits no matter if the base attack is 250, 280 or 380.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Dark Arts still doesn't change how you manage your combos. You still lose one degree of complexity compared to HW.

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Losing complexity is not a bad thing when that complexity is unnecessary, meaningless or just interferes with the ability to play. The complexity change allows for more focus on complexity with MP and Blood Gauge management.

With the possibility of buffing Syphon and Eater, you actually have more buttons to press during your regular combo rotation if you have excess MP. I really don't understand these complaints...

Also, you can't really compare SB DRK to ARR PLD, because ARR PLD literally could only do ONE combo without any sort of variants. DRK has two native combos and four different variants for one of those.

I understand why it looks like you'll be pressing the same buttons over and over, but does it really make a difference if the functionality is basically the same as it is in HW? Also, the only difference is that you'll be pressing 1-2-3 or 1-2-(X)3, instead of 1-2-4 or 1-2-(x)3.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Losing complexity is not a bad thing when that complexity is unnecessary, meaningless or just interferes with the ability to play. The complexity change allows for more focus on complexity with MP and Blood Gauge management.

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MP and blood gauge management will likely be trivial all things considered, especially due to the fact that DS no longer drains MP and every single not AOE gcd costing relatively the same amount as Dark arts.

dumbing down is nice when necessary, and dark knight needed some dumbing down. what i'm worried however is that they dumbed down dark knight TOO MUCH.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

I understand why it looks like you'll be pressing the same buttons over and over, but does it really make a difference if the functionality is basically the same as it is in HW? Also, the only difference is that you'll be pressing 1-2-3 or 1-2-(X)3, instead of 1-2-4 or 1-2-(x)3.

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coming from someone who played as a paladin for almost all of 2.x, a single combo rotation is mind-numbingly boring. DRK already is slightly a step up by having two rather than one, but it's still SE when not building aggro. dark arts doesn't add much to that unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Crater

This is kind of a silly complaint.

In HW, DRK effectively has the following combo options:
1) 1-2-3
2) 1-2-(DA)3

In SB, DRK effectively has the following combo options:

1) 1-2-3
2) 1-DA2-3
3) 1-2-DA3
4) 1-DA2-DA3

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2 and 3 are functionally the same, but 2 is slightly worse because of no free self-healing(in grit). DRK has gotten clunkier, not more complex.

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Originally Posted by MoarLegion

2 and 3 are functionally the same, but 2 is slightly worse because of no free self-healing(in grit). DRK has gotten clunkier, not more complex.

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2 is better if Trick Attack, Balance, Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, Embolden, Brotherhood (and so on, I'm probably missing a couple) will be up on the second GCD of your combo, and down by the third.
2 is also better if you're sitting at a high enough MP level that Syphon Strike will bring you past 100% of your MP bar if you don't blow some of your MP away on Dark Arts.

The number of times that these scenarios happen (and their usefulness overall) far, far outweighs the nearly-nonexistent benefits of a 420 potency (plus the Grit penalty) heal that you only get in a stance that you almost never want to actually be in during a single-target scenario.

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Originally Posted by Crater

The number of times that these scenarios happen (and their usefulness overall) far, far outweighs the nearly-nonexistent benefits of a 420 potency (plus the Grit penalty) heal that you only get in a stance that you almost never want to actually be in during a single-target scenario.

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If any of those buffs are active during only a couple GCD, then you don't spend DA on SS, but on Bloodspiller, or preemptively on BN to cram a second Bloodspiller in.
And it's pretty early to judge the value of Grit and self-healing when we have no idea how much damage we'll receive in Stormblood.

As far as I'm aware. Dark Arts has more or less become a MP costing, 2 second recast oGCD that deals 140 potency to single targets or 90 to all targets in a line. :/ (Does 350 every 60 seconds/140 in a small AoE around you for 50 Blood/Reduce Additional Magic Damage/Heals for 100% Damage dealt if you want to get all technical about it :O)

They're not really combo variations because they virtually do the same thing with the same button presses. It's still ultimately press 1 - 2 -3 and spam R when you have mana.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If any of those buffs are active during only a couple GCD, then you don't spend DA on SS, but on Bloodspiller, or preemptively on BN to cram a second Bloodspiller in.

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But those buffs aren't up during "only a couple GCDs". If you've got room for four GCDs during a Trick Attack, your first one (and ideally your second as well) will be Bloodspiller. If you aren't otherwise in the middle of a combo, your next two GCDs are Hard Slash, and then Syphon Strike.

The only GCD where you can't use DA to get extra damage is Hard Slash. If not for the second of the four variations on DRK's SB combo, that would not be possible, and your ability to use Dark Arts efficiently would be drastically reduced.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And it's pretty early to judge the value of Grit and self-healing when we have no idea how much damage we'll receive in Stormblood.

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Not really. The logic is pretty simple: If you're taking enough damage that the self-targeted, 20% version of Blackest Night will be broken, then using that is a far more effective use of your MP than the healing you get from upgrading a Souleater with DA. If you aren't taking enough damage to break Blackest Night, then a couple hundred potency of healing (when subjected to a tank's potency:damage ratio and further penalized with Grit) is inconsequential.

On that note, I misspoke in my previous post: You aren't getting a 420 potency heal by using Dark Arts; you're getting a 140 potency heal from using Dark Arts, because you would be getting 280 of that potency from Souleater even without it. 140 potency with a 20% Grit damage penalty is... Somewhere between 'negligible' and 'actively harmful'. It's just an absolute nonfactor. They could delete the effect from the game and it would probably improve things, because then people would be less tempted to use DA inefficiently just to get more useless heals.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

They're not really combo variations because they virtually do the same thing with the same button presses. It's still ultimately press 1 - 2 -3 and spam R when you have mana.

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They're as much of a combo variation as DRK's current Delirium/Souleater setup is, and as much of a combo variation as PLD's "Royal Authority, occasionally refresh Goring Blade" 1-2-3 is, or as much of a combo variation as WAR's "Storm's Path, occasionally refresh Storm's Eye" 1-2-3 will be. It's a 4-button combo system, the same as every other tank, and if anything, DRK's combos are still the more complex of the three, because the frequency and flexibility of DA is much greater than only really ever hitting your fourth button once every 3-4 combos. The loss of the Delirium attack animation has more of a tangible effect on the game than any of the actual mechanical implications.

I mean you can pull back the curtain on the game and reveal that every tank class has just been doing nothing but hitting 1-2-3 forever with very little variation, ever since ARR launched, and you'd be right. But by the standards that the game has set from 2.00 through 3.57, DRK's Stormblood combo system represents an uptick in complexity and variation compared to every other set of tank combos in every other previous patch the game has had.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Maybe if you ask the devs, they'll let you glamour Delirium's animation back in, like the SMN Egi-Glamours (I'd definitely glamour Scourge on to something if this happened). But functionally, it was a beneficial change on several levels.

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Could I glamour Reprisal onto SE instead ;3

I have the suspicion that the new role-skill Reprisal is going to use the current cross-class Fracture animation (Same for Reprisal on PLD and WAR, recycling Fracture animation for those jobs). I've no explanation as to why, just feel that is what they're going to do..

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Could I glamour Reprisal onto SE instead ;3

I have the suspicion that the new role-skill Reprisal is going to use the current cross-class Fracture animation (Same for Reprisal on PLD and WAR, recycling Fracture animation for those jobs). I've no explanation as to why, just feel that is what they're going to do..

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We know from the job trailer something that isn't Souleater is using Reprisal's animation. I really hope it isn't new Reprisal because it would be wasted on that shell of the attack it used to be (it doesn't even do damage).

My dream DRK combo would be Hard Slash (unchanged), Syphon with Scourge animation, Souleater with Reprisal animation. Would look amazing.