Is reflect the answer for WHM?

In another thread, I brought this up while asking about raid utility, and thought I would bring it up in a separate thread. I don't raid, so I can only toss haymakers when it comes to suggestions, but when thinking about how SE wants WHM to stay a pure healer, and the meta wants more utility from WHM that not only competes with SCH and AST, but has its own flavor as well, the iconic spell Reflect came to mind.

Whether to replace the AoE stoneskin, or on its own, how helpful would this be? Especially in accordance to the lily system, which could be implemented to boost what reflect does. There is a myriad of possibilities: Reflecting physical damage, magical damage, both, a percentage based on number of lilies, it goes on and on. Whichever the case, the WHM essentially protects the group be reflecting damage back onto the enemy?

I'm trying and trying to think of something! Maybe this one won't get shot down. Thoughts?

Also not a raider, so opinion may be of limited use, but wouldn't that tip the scales too far the other way? If WHM is preventing damage and also putting out damage at the same time, that might feed too much into the "MOAR DPS" mentality of some of those hardcore groups.

IMO, the first step for healer BALANCE in general, is to remove ALL "utilities" that buffs party damage, Balance/Arrow/Chain Strategem all gotta go.

This is an unhealthy "meta" where the value of a healer is how often they can stroke the DPS's shaft the most. I mean seriously, is that truly what healers are to you? Be the Balance-female dog of the party?

Our utilities should be about boosting the survivability of the party, stuff like CU, DT those are great, and I hope we'll see more skills like those instead of more "press this button to stroke your DPS shaft even harder".

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Also not a raider, so opinion may be of limited use, but wouldn't that tip the scales too far the other way? If WHM is preventing damage and also putting out damage at the same time, that might feed too much into the "MOAR DPS" mentality of some of those hardcore groups.

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I dunno. I was even thinking of going as far as restoring HP while reflecting back damage, but wasn't sure if too OP. It seems though that WHM needs something pretty substantial to even compete with AST now.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

IMO, the first step for healer BALANCE in general, is to remove ALL "utilities" that buffs party damage, Balance/Arrow/Chain Strategem all gotta go.

This is an unhealthy "meta" where the value of a healer is how often they can stroke the DPS's shaft the most. I mean seriously, is that truly what healers are to you? Be the Balance-female dog of the party?

Our utilities should be about boosting the survivability of the party, stuff like CU, DT those are great, and I hope we'll see more skills like those instead of more "press this button to stroke your DPS even harder".

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I agree, but what can we do? The meta wants damage. The content is geared towards causing damage. WHM is shunned because it can't boost damage. Survivability is based on destroying things quickly. We conform or stay out :(

This is not a healer to me. Of course not. The only time I feel like a healer is when things go bad, and it is up to me to salvage the situation. When I get to use my LB. When I have to use Cure 2. When Presence of Mind is spent keeping the group up. When my fairy and I have to do doubly duty heals. When the situation calls for fey illumination. These things make me feel like a healer.

I want to be a healer, but the meta won't allow this will it?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I agree, but what can we do? The meta wants damage. The content is geared towards causing damage. WHM is shunned because it can't boost damage. Survivability is based on destroying things quickly. We conform or stay out :(

This is not a healer to me. Of course not. The only time I feel like a healer is when things go bad, and it is up to me to salvage the situation. When I get to use my LB. When I have to use Cure 2. When Presence of Mind is spent keeping the group up. When my fairy and I have to do doubly duty heals. When the situation calls for fey illumination. These things make me feel like a healer.

I want to be a healer, but the meta won't allow this will it?

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Which is why my very first sentence is to propose the removal of all dps boosting "utilities" from all healers.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Which is why my very first sentence is to propose the removal of all dps boosting "utilities" from all healers.

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I kinda agree. Give the DPS buffing abilities to the DPS. Give healers the TP/MP restoration tools instead. You could have WHMs have perhaps TP/MP regen abilities, SCH could have one time MP/TP injections (a TP/MP "cure" if you will) and perhaps AST could lower the cost of TP/MP abilities giving each their single use and together make them stronger. Of course, that would make healers TP/MP -female dogs for the DPS too rather than giving them time to do their own dps but... perhaps this is the answer to those healers that don't want to DPS and would rather heal their raids' TP/MP/etc?

i think reflect would be a good idea. Simply because its something to do as a whm if it was heals only. Whm as it is now is boring as hell. You either help dps which gives you something to do or just throw a medica up and regen and go afk. You only heal a lot in this game if your party sucks. Boring job unless they up damage output a lot.

Reflect should just cut a huge chunk of damage, and return it to sender. Have it be guaranteed to reflect, but on a longer CD with a shorter duration that E4aE.

The issue with the "Pure Healer" mentality SE has is that it goes against what the White Mage has been in the franchise.

To list a few ionic spells/abilities outside of healing: Faith, Bravery, Reflect, Berserk, Float, Haste, Arise, Bubble, Shell, Mini, Dispel, and many others I'm sure I'm missing. The actual Whm identity is Healer, Buffer, Debuffer, and Damage in that order. In most FF games you'd be casting Buffs far more than healing with the Job

If we were pure healers I would not be playing the role in 14.
Reflect could add utility; block 1 skill and deal x potency damage to the attacker
Personally I think Protect should be removed from the cross-role system and added as a WHM exclusive party-wide Rampart.

I've had this discussion with some friends who have played many games with reflect/thorns, and they told me it's generally either very overpowered or severely underpowered. Not to shoot ideas down, but we also need to take into consideration whether or not it is oGCD or a GCD factoring in autos are bound by global server ticks and damage is severely scripted (in addition to reflected damage amount of course).

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

If we were pure healers I would not be playing the role in 14.
Reflect could add utility; block 1 skill and deal x potency damage to the attacker
Personally I think Protect should be removed from the cross-role system and added as a WHM exclusive party-wide Rampart.

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You should look at the PvP Protect. It is basically that minus the block for a single target :P

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...0606_db_06.png

Reflect has been discussed before. The consensus is that being able to reflect boss attacks is overpowered. The best rendition of reflect, already exists in the game as Ifrits Radiant Shield. Striking it causes a set potency to be returned to target. WHM could have something similar, but as reflect has magic only connotations, probably wouldn't be that useful.

Reflect could work and maintain balance with the other healers if it works differently from the series' staple Reflect.

Staple Reflect: Usually a single-target, sometimes a party-wide cast that nullifies magic damage and reflects back 100% of the damage taken (or 200% in some games). Duration lasts a few turns. Can be dispelled.

In FFXIV, I feel that a Reflect spell should work on physical and magical damage sources (as well as be able to diminish damage from sources that can't be targeted.) This leaves a few options I feel would be viable:

Option 1: Reflect nullifies damage and reflects it back, as it always has
-In this case, as it nullifies damage, Reflect should last until the first time damage is taken from any source;
-Should probably be a single target cast;
-Should either have a high MP cost or long cast time as a spell, or be an oGCD ability.

Option 2: Reflect nullifies damage and returns back damage of "X" potency
-In this case, the potency is calculated from the healer
-Should have a short duration or last until the first time damage is taken
-Spell with a cast time or oGCD ability
-Should be single-target; possibly an AOE radius

Option 3: Reflect reduces damage taken and reflects the difference
-In this case, the damage pop-up tells you the damage percentage taken like parry, and the rest is reflected--so if you take 80% of the damage, you reflected 20%
-The percentage lowered may have to be calculated through Determination as Mind may be overpowering.
-Should Last until the first time damage is taken or have a duration
-Could possibly have an small AOE radius

Option 4: Reflect reduces damage taken and returns damage back of "X" potency
-Hybrid of the previous two options

I feel that the third option is best given the idea that nullifying/reflecting 100% of a boss' damage would be overpowering. Still, there are other ways to implement it without overpowering it while keeping it true to its nature.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Reflect has been discussed before. The consensus is that being able to reflect boss attacks is overpowered. The best rendition of reflect, already exists in the game as Ifrits Radiant Shield. Striking it causes a set potency to be returned to target. WHM could have something similar, but as reflect has magic only connotations, probably wouldn't be that useful.

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Imagine if Divine Benison would be Reflect, same effect as it does now but when the shield destroyed it reflect all the damage it blocked.

Reflect in Final Fantasy has a lot of lore to work with, but there's a few things to keep in mind about it.

1. Reflect traditionally doesn't care what spell it bounces, which includes healing spells.
2. Some moves bypass reflect, and this differs by game. Bahamut's megaflare for instance has ignored it in some games, and Ultima has never been reflectable, but Meteor can bounce in some games but not in others. Quake and most monster abilities (bad breath, grand train, etc) are not reflectable in later games, either.
3. Reflect is associated not just with white magic, but with Carbuncle.
4. The physical version of reflect is "Counter", which is thematically part of certain tank abilities such as DRK's Reprisal which works (or worked) off the parry mechanic.
5. Reflect as a function is currently in game during the Sophia fight with the one add's knockback shield, so there is hope for the future, maybe.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Imagine if Divine Benison would be Reflect, same effect as it does now but when the shield destroyed it reflect all the damage it blocked.

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Actually this is a fair idea, one that some other MMOs have used in order to limit the abuse potential (e.g. players using reflect skills on naked, debuffed level 1 characters to instantly kill raid bosses). If the skill can't reflect more damage than the shield can absorb, no one will be cheesing any bosses with it.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

I've had this discussion with some friends who have played many games with reflect/thorns, and they told me it's generally either very overpowered or severely underpowered. Not to shoot ideas down, but we also need to take into consideration whether or not it is oGCD or a GCD factoring in autos are bound by global server ticks and damage is severely scripted (in addition to reflected damage amount of course).



You should look at the PvP Protect. It is basically that minus the block for a single target :P

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...0606_db_06.png

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I actually prefer the PvP changes in general

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

IMO, the first step for healer BALANCE in general, is to remove ALL "utilities" that buffs party damage, Balance/Arrow/Chain Strategem all gotta go.

This is an unhealthy "meta" where the value of a healer is how often they can stroke the DPS's shaft the most. I mean seriously, is that truly what healers are to you? Be the Balance-female dog of the party?

Our utilities should be about boosting the survivability of the party, stuff like CU, DT those are great, and I hope we'll see more skills like those instead of more "press this button to stroke your DPS shaft even harder".

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But I like having some the ability to boost my party's dps...
Let's assume we remove all of this.

We definitly need to have some mitgation CD in exchange...Like, give us back Virus for example.
I agree on something, even if i love astrologian...

As long as the balance will exist as powerful as it is, white mage will always be under Astrologian.
But if you remove its buff... Astrologian will now again be left aside.

They definitly have some difficulties to balance healer since a very long time.
I don't know myself how they could do it.

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Originally Posted by BlueMageQuina

Reflect could work and maintain balance with the other healers if it works differently from the series' staple Reflect.

Staple Reflect: Usually a single-target, sometimes a party-wide cast that nullifies magic damage and reflects back 100% of the damage taken (or 200% in some games). Duration lasts a few turns. Can be dispelled.

In FFXIV, I feel that a Reflect spell should work on physical and magical damage sources (as well as be able to diminish damage from sources that can't be targeted.) This leaves a few options I feel would be viable:

Option 1: Reflect nullifies damage and reflects it back, as it always has
-In this case, as it nullifies damage, Reflect should last until the first time damage is taken from any source;
-Should probably be a single target cast;
-Should either have a high MP cost or long cast time as a spell, or be an oGCD ability.

Option 2: Reflect nullifies damage and returns back damage of "X" potency
-In this case, the potency is calculated from the healer
-Should have a short duration or last until the first time damage is taken
-Spell with a cast time or oGCD ability
-Should be single-target; possibly an AOE radius

Option 3: Reflect reduces damage taken and reflects the difference
-In this case, the damage pop-up tells you the damage percentage taken like parry, and the rest is reflected--so if you take 80% of the damage, you reflected 20%
-The percentage lowered may have to be calculated through Determination as Mind may be overpowering.
-Should Last until the first time damage is taken or have a duration
-Could possibly have an small AOE radius

Option 4: Reflect reduces damage taken and returns damage back of "X" potency
-Hybrid of the previous two options

I feel that the third option is best given the idea that nullifying/reflecting 100% of a boss' damage would be overpowering. Still, there are other ways to implement it without overpowering it while keeping it true to its nature.

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I'd say building off #1

a) Allow casting reflect on NPC's, healable objects, Mobs, or Party members. Incorporate such things into some mechanics, particularly raid mechanics.

b) Optionally make it casting reflect as a AOE (eg like Cure 3), anyone, players or mobs gets the reflect effect. Double-reflect tricks can then be used.

c) Anyone with the reflect effect has a cone AOE in front of them to which they can reflect 100% of magical damage back. Players with Protect on, also reflect physical damage. Reflect ends the same way Adloquium does, after X amount of damage equal to the players HP is reflected and is capped at the player's maximum HP unless it was a crit, or times out.

d) Reflect reflects only Magic with an element aspect to it. So it does not reflect unaspected magic (eg ruin), nor does it reflect Holy or Assize, or any AOE that would normally be instant-kill, or gaze-based. Reflect also reflects removable debuffs and Elemental DoT's. Skillful players can double-reflect spells, and so can bosses once the boss receives a reflected attack.

e) Double-reflect bypasses elemental magic resistance,eg casting reflect on a player and then casting stone, would make stone deflect in the direction of the cone AOE after the target/players next GCD expires. Players that are "reflected" can be targeted with DPS until reflect effect ends. Mobs that are reflected can be targeted with heal until reflect effect ends.

I think there is a lot of ways Reflect can be incorporated into the game, and possibly be a good utility and use of the lily system for WHM. Many of the ideas mentioned here are pretty good. It can't work like in console FF games, where it generally negated all damage and sent it back at the caster. One game even made it so powerful that you could equip a trait that reflected back x2 the intended damage.

I like the idea of it mitigating damage, and sending back a certain percentage of it. I don't think it should be so strong that a mob can kill itself, but the dmg should be respectable enough for the ability to have merit. As a straight WHM ability, the lilies could be used to determine how much damage is sent back. If it is an ability only available with lily stacks then it would have to work another way since it would have a fixed amount of damage it returns.

Traditionally, reflect doesn't send back physical attacks, certain mob specials, boss one-shot mechanics and things of the like. It would have to return mob auto attacks for sure, but the AoEs I am not so sure. I'm also not quite sure making it AoE would be OP or useless. It probably should be single target.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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This is much too powerful. It's basically Succor and Adlo with the ability to also do damage, so to balance it would either have to be extremely weak, like half the shield strength of SCH's abilities, or instead left as-is and given to Noct AST (because reasons).