cross roll system and issues on some jobs

honestly devs, you should just auto cross the important skills and give us an option for 1 or 2 skills on top of those.
this new Cross Role system looks nice but I'm looking at the skills in there and important skills should never be set as optional.


please take this as more of an observation than a complaint as I can honestly see issues happening with this system happening later if they keep it as they showed it

Why not first try it out before demanding changes?
Also, why a new thread?

you misunderstand, this is a suggestion not a demand.

What is important is very different player to player too. If they were to force some skills on you which you dont want there would be much salt

OP, I feel that your "suggestion" is purely you "jumping the gun" based on the limited information we have about Stormblood.

Cheers,
D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dlgc

OP, I feel that your "suggestion" is purely you "jumping the gun" based on the limited information we have about Stormblood.

Cheers,
D.

---

ofcourse some of you might think so but I'll leave this thread with a quote from another

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vhailor

Personally I think this whole change is going to backfire hilariously.

I mean, think about it: SE has stated they want to (a) reduce button bloat, and (b) make the system more accessible / usable for casual players. Laudable goals, both, assuming they can be effectively achieved. But, it is arguable the nature of the role-based system might worsen both. Consider:

1.) Role-based skills are broad enough that it appears frequent swapping between skill combinations is encouraged. This means that users must integrate most or all of the Role-based skills onto their hotbars, rather than just the five I'd use now, all of which are relatively static.

2.) Role-based skills being flexible and guaranteed means the floodgates will be opened for players being told how to play. Think that situation is bad now? Wait until tanks start bitching at healers for not having Esuna selected. Wait until people wipe because the tank forgot to respec from a damage-oriented setup they were using for solo'ing. This isn't going to lead to a friendlier environment for casual or forgetful players.

Don't get me wrong, I think the role-based skill system is potentially a good idea - but it doesn't fix the problem. They've essentially removed the need to level other jobs, but shifted even MORE crucial abilities into optional skills. Healers in 3.x need to have Swiftcast, but now they need to make damned sure they've selected Esuna, too - and heaven help them if they don't. This would have worked a hell of a lot better if the role-based skills were optional things that gave non-crucial, but nonetheless useful, abilities. They should have behaved like Merit Point abilities in FFXI. Hell, they could have even allowed for the selection of a role-based Trait or two, something powerful, so people could really customize how their class felt. Instead, they've worsened almost all the problems of the cross-class system; the only thing they fixed (and it's debatable if this is a good thing or not) is the fact that players no longer have to level separate jobs they might not be interested in.

Truly a missed opportunity.

---

The reason they are going about it this way is to avoid having jobs learn the exact same ability. With the cross role system, if someone ever does enter content without say, Provoke. They can immediately swap it in once told it's mandatory.

I will say I find it weird for Esuna to be an optional skill.

Maybe the healers will have some other channels of negating negative status? All we can do us speculate at this point.

Even if Esuna is the only debuff removal skill that healers get, I do not think it is necessarily a bad decision, since it provides players more freedom when it comes to their playstyle:

Take me for example, I always go Noct. AST whenever my partner goes WHM to raids. He loves to dd, and I am the more "careful" one.

If we are in a decent raid with people knowing what to expect/do, it is perfectly fine with me being the one with Esuna, while my partner chooses another skill other than Esuna to help him with his dmg output.

Having said that, what we know at this juncture is only a small piece of the puzzle. It is redundant in asking for changes based on blind speculations.

Cheers,
D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

I will say I find it weird for Esuna to be an optional skill.

---

Probably there for scholars so they can use it at an earlier level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

I will say I find it weird for Esuna to be an optional skill.

---

There are contents where you don't need it. In those contents you have then the option to replace Esuna with something else.

The Esuna thing, I'll admit will be hard to break but I'm willing to give it a shot. Out of the 10 I don't find myself needing all 10 all the time. Since this seems to stem from mostly the healers (I don't hear many on the DPS side screaming)

Sure there's the Raging Strikes, and all of these concerns are valid, but they're put in wording by other threads that make the weight of it all seem so heavy. No one knows a lot of minor adjustments that could help make up for it. No one has yet to answer my Barrier question on White Mage so I can only take these so seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Also, why a new thread?

---

Because they want to be the person who could go "I said so..see? See?" it gets more attention rather than lost in a 30 page thread. Just like the healer DPS issue, some bard came in to troll it and it turned into a 4 page discussion rather than taking it somewhere else. I'm guilty of it..I guess we all are. We do need to see this system and test before people go "This..is..a..failure" someone took time to draw a cartoon on how sad they are and make a small 4 page story for it. People are dramatic over the things they're unaware of.

To the OP..sure lets use your new friends post that we could have had this discussion over there but you felt the need to make a new thread on that I took the bait for..

"Personally I think this whole change is going to backfire hilariously."

Personally, I don't. Well that's the end of that one because it's all speculation. I'm ready to be wrong..are they? (queue the overly dramatic music!)

Their other points, they have reduced some bloat from what we've seen (stone progression for example) they made the system a bit easier for casual players (no more pld's running around in MND gear!)

People not wanting to sit down and change out their skills. You people want blue mage like the precious FFXI so bad, but you can't deal with 5 skills...? Back in my day...

Players are told how to play no matter what. We have EX content videos that tell us how to play, we just accept it. Oh you can go "no those are suggestions" yeah..well that's the intent but not the end result. People tell others how to play all the time, no adjusting is going to fix that. People wipe from things all the time, what's the difference from a wipe if a healer forgot to esuna in 4.0 vs a healer who forgot to come out of Cleric Stance in 3.0?

There is none, if you wipe you wipe. Tanks bitch at healers now for not esuna them after berserk, or holy spam on dark knights trying to get MP. The problems that person listed are valid but their suggestions wouldn't make them go away.

You want change? You want to be heard? Well do it but in one thread, and have a person who can start a thread that updates it. Have it get attention but this will sink to the bottom like all the others because it's started and no one keeps an update on what's been said so when the devs look and go "This post is hot.." all they see is a vague complaint.

You can say it's a suggestion but let me tell you now if you think flooding the forums with the same subject gets attention, it does. It just doesn't get the kind you want. We get tickets like this all the time, and multiple complaints or "suggestions" go into the realm of "Just give the baby their bottle and have them shut up." vs one compiled complaint where we see the actual data and go "So..these are their points. What can we do?" One is half assed on is all full of that twerky booty.

Anyways, good luck and see you in stormblood! "Please look forward to it."

While I agree I like the concept of the role system, it is baffling how a few key abilities are on there. Provoke, esuna, and protect are the obvious ones. It just seems such core abilities are shifted off the jobs themselves and put into a pool that will inevitably take up a slot. Protect is especially a weird case as it's only useful once, so I already see it being encouraged to cast it then swap it out.

So I do agree somewhat with the OP, this system is rife with some obvious flaws from the get go. I'm predicting we'll see a fair bit of changes over the 4.X series to the system and which abilities are in it. I'm expecting once the game goes live the amount of complaints in these flaws will pick up momentum as people try it out and realize it for themselves.

Maybe the excess of choices is because even though a tank is a tank for instance, Warrior excels at some things, Dark Knight others, and Paladin others. Maybe we have "to many choices" because one Tank may need something the other tanks wont.

That may be how it os accross the board. Monk can self heal ok, maybe it wont need Bloodbath like DRG would. Idk, but you get what I'm saying.

They said that the new cross role skills will be assigned automatically, since some people are too stupid lazy busy to do it themselves. 100% necessary skills like Provoke and Esuna will probably be the default abilities assigned.

I understood that statement to be we learned them automatically at certain levels not that they were assigned to your hot bar automatically.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wildsprite

ofcourse some of you might think so but I'll leave this thread with a quote from another

---

If you were going to quote a post from another thread, then you should have just left this suggestion in that thread instead of creating a new one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaonis

it is baffling how a few key abilities are on there. Provoke, esuna, and protect are the obvious ones. It just seems such core abilities are shifted off the jobs themselves and put into a pool that will inevitably take up a slot. Protect is especially a weird case as it's only useful once, so I already see it being encouraged to cast it then swap it out.

So I do agree somewhat with the OP, this system is rife with some obvious flaws from the get go. I'm predicting we'll see a fair bit of changes over the 4.X series to the system and which abilities are in it. I'm expecting once the game goes live the amount of complaints in these flaws will pick up momentum as people try it out and realize it for themselves.

---

Why would all healers in Full Party content need Protect ? They don't, that's why it's here, one of the healer takes Protect while the other can take another Role ability. Esuna is not require in every boss fights, that will give you the option to opt for something useful. Provoke, well what's the point of Provoke if I'm playing solo ? None, might as well take something like a stun, and if I'm confident enough I won't even need it in Dungeons.
The entire point of the system is to make you choose which set-up of abilities between ALL players of the group is the most optimal in the content you're in. For organized group this is really interesting. We also don't know what some of those skills are doing.

Well said Tharne.

Thinking in terms of my static, I (the main healer) can take something besides Protect because usually, my co-healer casts protect while I Stoneskin the party. In areas where I don't need Esuna, I can slot something else, or perhaps our SMN can.

It's all a matter of versatility. Create the build that works best for you and your party. People wanted a little more flexibility, and now we're getting it. I see nothing wrong here.

I rather like the system. Some players often complain how there is no diversity in the classes, no real sense of choice compared to other MMOs where jobs/classes have different specializations. I think this helps encourage that, even if we'll still end up sticking to the usual cookie-cutter selections for maximum efficiency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

If you were going to quote a post from another thread, then you should have just left this suggestion in that thread instead of creating a new one.

---

I had not intended to quote a post from another thread originally but, I felt it fit. when I was looking at that thread it felt like my suggestion was off topic through most of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Why not first try it out before demanding changes?

---

God I wish we had a PTR.

We dont know the potencies yet. They took away alot of skills that tanks had and even adjusted some and made them cross role. But we will find out on the 16th

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

We dont know the potencies yet. They took away alot of skills that tanks had and even adjusted some and made them cross role. But we will find out on the 16th

---

They also said that is not the final version, maybe they wanted to see what players think before they release a disaster?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Well said Tharne.

Thinking in terms of my static, I (the main healer) can take something besides Protect because usually, my co-healer casts protect while I Stoneskin the party. In areas where I don't need Esuna, I can slot something else, or perhaps our SMN can.

It's all a matter of versatility. Create the build that works best for you and your party. People wanted a little more flexibility, and now we're getting it. I see nothing wrong here.

---

You are looking at it though a static point of view, people you know, that is an issue. The reason they made this system to begin with is to make it more user friendly. This does not achieve that, and if we need to continuously change out esuna and protect during a DF, you are going to see a lot less people running healers because some do not want to deal with that annoyance while they play something else that they find more fun. (and casuals will not like being told to do so)

This is not more flexibility and customization, all it is doing is shifting the illusion of choice we have currently. Once you have a supposed "custom system" such as this turn into pick this to be optimal or get kicked, such a system is a back turner to most of the player base. Systems like this you need to be truly picking abilities that are optional, protect, esuna, Invigorate, provoke, for starters are BASELINE and a NEED. If Invigorate is going to be MORE of a need for some then others, then that is a class balance issue ( needing too much tp to aoe for example)

In other words, agreeing with this well worded post:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vhailor

Personally I think this whole change is going to backfire hilariously.

I mean, think about it: SE has stated they want to (a) reduce button bloat, and (b) make the system more accessible / usable for casual players. Laudable goals, both, assuming they can be effectively achieved. But, it is arguable the nature of the role-based system might worsen both. Consider:

1.) Role-based skills are broad enough that it appears frequent swapping between skill combinations is encouraged. This means that users must integrate most or all of the Role-based skills onto their hotbars, rather than just the five I'd use now, all of which are relatively static.

2.) Role-based skills being flexible and guaranteed means the floodgates will be opened for players being told how to play. Think that situation is bad now? Wait until tanks start bitching at healers for not having Esuna selected. Wait until people wipe because the tank forgot to respec from a damage-oriented setup they were using for solo'ing. This isn't going to lead to a friendlier environment for casual or forgetful players.

Don't get me wrong, I think the role-based skill system is potentially a good idea - but it doesn't fix the problem. They've essentially removed the need to level other jobs, but shifted even MORE crucial abilities into optional skills. Healers in 3.x need to have Swiftcast, but now they need to make damned sure they've selected Esuna, too - and heaven help them if they don't. This would have worked a hell of a lot better if the role-based skills were optional things that gave non-crucial, but nonetheless useful, abilities. They should have behaved like Merit Point abilities in FFXI. Hell, they could have even allowed for the selection of a role-based Trait or two, something powerful, so people could really customize how their class felt. Instead, they've worsened almost all the problems of the cross-class system; the only thing they fixed (and it's debatable if this is a good thing or not) is the fact that players no longer have to level separate jobs they might not be interested in.

Truly a missed opportunity.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Systems like this you need to be truly picking abilities that are optional, protect, esuna, Invigorate, provoke, for starters are BASELINE and a NEED. If Invigorate is going to be MORE of a need for some then others, then that is a class balance issue ( needing too much tp to aoe for example)

---

Then if you think that you need them, just pick them, that's the point of the system. The system is not : "Hey I can have those 5 situational skills, but I don't want to take any so I'm gonna play with 5 less skills.", those skills are not suppose to be optional but situational, it's two different things, you should always use the maximum amount of them available to you based on your level but you should adapt them based on your need in the current content. If a healer knows that he won't need Esuna during an entire dungeon why should he have a useless skill ? Same for a Tank doing solo content and Provoke ? Those are not a need in all situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tharne

Then if you think that you need them, just pick them, that's the point of the system. The system is not : "Hey I can have those 5 situational skills, but I don't want to take any so I'm gonna play with 5 less skills.", those skills are not suppose to be optional but situational, it's two different things, you should always use the maximum amount of them available to you based on your level but you should adapt them based on your need in the current content. If a healer knows that he won't need Esuna during an entire dungeon why should he have a useless skill ? Same for a Tank doing solo content and Provoke ? Those are not a need in all situation.

---

I do not understand, people supporting in a flawed system. If the final system is no one having provoke/esuna/protect as baseline and everyone has to continuously change these abilities out, you have a worse system then now. provoke/esuna/protect are NOT situational and SHOULD NOT be put on a list of pick 5. they are baseline abilities in every flippin FF game ill FXIV 4.0 apparently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

I do not understand, people supporting in a flawed system. If the final system is no one having provoke/esuna/protect as baseline and everyone has to continuously change these abilities out, you have a worse system then now.

---

You consider it a flawed system, I don't since I prefer having the choice to use a skill useful in the content I am in and then switch it for another when I go do something else.

There's no benefit in this new system for bringing esuna when there's nothing to cleanse, so all the system does is give you the chance to make a mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

provoke/esuna/protect are NOT situational and SHOULD NOT be put on a list of pick 5. they are baseline abilities in every flippin FF game ill FXIV 4.0 apparently.

---

Who has provoke/esuna/protect or something similar being baseline in FFVII / VIII or XII for exemple ? Materia, Draw and Licence are optionals, if you don't want to play with Esuna you have that choice.

And sorry but yes, Provoke is situational and Esuna is also situational. Protect is not except when you have two healers as this will free a skill for the one that didn't picked it which is good.

I see you in a month when there is 10+ threads of complaints on this system if they do not change anything. They did say may not be the final product though, hope that ends up being true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

I see you in a month when there is 10+ threads of complaints on this system if they do not change anything. They did say may not be the final product though, hope that ends up being true.

---

lol people complain about anything these days , yesterday ive helped out a group in halatali hard, coz the tank kicked out a newbie for being to slow , then apparently the tank left to so....

and u complain about cross class skills? common....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

provoke/esuna/protect are NOT situational and SHOULD NOT be put on a list of pick 5. they are baseline abilities in every flippin FF game ill FXIV 4.0 apparently.

---

And in quite every FF they're either optional taken and replaced again if you want to or the whole character who has it itself get's swapped out (which makes them again optional).

FF14 now is basically the only Final Fantasy were you have access to protect and Esuna all the time without switching something out, because right now you never, ever have a better alternative than just to have protect selected. Never, ever, every group has 2 protect-casters now for 100% the time.
In SB there will be occassion were there will be good alternatives in certain situations.

So, if anything, this change makes FF14 more fibal fantasy'ish.

The most important thing is if they alzered protect anyway. If they changed it to a x seconds def+ buff for the group then this discussion is stupid anyway. And we don't know if they have.
This only 30 min buff is awkward anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

I do not understand, people supporting in a flawed system. If the final system is no one having provoke/esuna/protect as baseline and everyone has to continuously change these abilities out, you have a worse system then now. provoke/esuna/protect are NOT situational and SHOULD NOT be put on a list of pick 5. they are baseline abilities in every flippin FF game ill FXIV 4.0 apparently.

---

If they're not optional, use Provoke on all your tanks, and Esuna+Protect on all your healers. Quit whining if you're saying they're not optional when you have the ability to use them anyways.

If you're going to quote something from a different thread, why not just go and reply to that thread instead of starting a new one?

While I like how will be, I am not sure if will be good community wise. We can choose 5 of 10 skills depending on OUR choice, but then, the problem will come. "Illuminated" hyper-mega-pro skilled players will elaborate the perfection itself on a guide. Telling you what MUST get (Yes, MUST, not "should" or "recommended"). And people will start demand everyone get those skills or /kick because blindly follow them. The same reason that why we cannot have skills trees. I like the system, but I don't like people with "get X skill or screw yourself" mentality.

Yoshi-P White Mage didn't have selected Swiftcast for example. What If I choose to have 5 different skills and not Swiftcast? Well people will start yelling at me asking why I don't get that one, while is a choice. I choose what I get, not you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Yoshi-P White Mage didn't have selected Swiftcast for example. What If I choose to have 5 different skills and not Swiftcast? Well people will start yelling at me asking why I don't get that one, while is a choice. I choose what I get, not you.

---

In savage/ex trials taking a dumb choice or a choice just because you want instead of because it's beneficial you should het kicked anyway.
In serious contents you want people who do smart choices or people who can be reasoned with arguments why specific skills are better than others in specific fights.
And no self-centered me-me-me guys who refuse to adapt if it'd be obviously beneficial.
Role-based skills are not supposed to help you being a special snowflake

It's a hyperbole anyway. How often do you see WARs pull and PLD/DRK offtanking the opener in random kill groups? Way to rarely.
WAR pull being op and being the meta (everyone with common sense should know), still 90% of WARs in most groups (even in A10s with WARs wearing A12s chest, lol) don't do that.
How often do tanks tank 100% the time in their tank stance, although every guide out there says that this is dumb?

Do you really think I safe swiftcast for dying people instead of using it in my rotation?* Lol.
So most of the time when someone dies it's on CD, bad for them, maybe next time do the mechanic?
I still wait for being kicked because of that or at least someone complaining. Waiting 10s because of own mistakes and then starting to complain.. can't wait for it. ;)

*ofc in certain parts of fight, like Zurvan Ex before Broken Seal I safe it, because in that case if someone dies short before broken seal, they have to get up asap to do the mechanic right (they'll die again after taking their tower after rezz without debuff though, but at least the group is safe).

Why people are complaining about this awesome change. For what I saw the majority of cross role skills are really good (in all roles) so you gonna need to make some decisions.

For example, in 8 man content do you need an esuna? All tanks should equip a low blow stun (they have no damage btw)? Only 1 healer need protect spell. Cleric stance for more damage or a safer option?

It feels almost like a skill tree that ou can change it anytime.