I say no to homogenization!

Tank should have area's of expertise where they excel in, we should not be pushing for normalization. I do not and you should not want a war, dk, or pld to tank the same way and have the same kinda mitigation and cooldowns.

We need to stop this hear before every class becomes exactly the same like in WoW and other mmo's guys.

Giving everyone reprisal and low blow is not the answer. If yoshi p. wants the tanks to all do the same thing but look different say no, and if indeed my fears come true in stormblood im putting down tank classes and walking away.

That ends my rant, and for you who say whats the problem now no tank is good and now every tank will be invited to groups. I say the fact that people take different tanks for different things is a quality of good class difference.

Not liking these changes at all as a Drk player everything that made my class unique is gone now.

MP and Aggro Management is still in DRK's toolkit...? -Shrugs-

So wait your saying that taking low blow off so to make room in the natural kit and taking away Brutal swing in the warrior kit even tho they were the same damn thing and then giving palais a off global stun is a bad thing?

Drk can still be in both stances at the same time and has the best, most consistent AoE, War will be able to do 6 Fell Cleaves in a row, and Pld gets a magical nuke while being able to shield (Divine Veil) and cover the entire party while taking 0 damage. All these are still exclusive and defining characteristics of each class.

That's just off the top of my head what each tank does wildly different from the next, let alone anything else. I don't mind the basics (Base level Mitigation, oGCD stun) being available to all tanks. That's how it is with healers already and is being done to DPS. It actually is just a very simple way of evening the playing field between jobs.

Give it time. We Pld lovers and mains will be the butt of many jibes once more in no time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Tank should have area's of expertise where they excel in, we should not be pushing for normalization. I do not and you should not want a war, dk, or pld to tank the same way and have the same kinda mitigation and cooldowns.

---

Everything is the same because of the obsession with balance. Every ta k has to be able to eat that tank buster. Every healer has to be able to heal a full party..

Originally they were more diverse. Old was a defensive brick wall that could tank anything just had no dps. So it got shafted because it. Defensive tanks don't work in the pure dps meta. It's the same with whom. Pure healing power but gets shafted cos it doesn't fit in the dps meta. And all that healing power simply isn't needed.

You cannot have diverse jobs because everything is built around a present party of 2 2 4 composition. So if you have a tank that is a defensive god but no cos and duty finder puts 2 of them in the group suddenly the group's cos takes a nose dive. If that same group had 2 wins they'd be pretty much screwed in cos checks.

On the flip side if you had 2 warriors that could put out the hurt but needed constant healing cos there defense wasn't anywhere near paladins. And that party had 2 scholars that lack healing power but smash out cos. You might fight that group screwed because it's impossible to keep the tanks alive...

If you want job diversity you need to get rid of the duty finder and let players build parties around there own compositions. Pld tank well we'll only need 1 for this fight and a single whm should easily be able to keep the group alive...

Warrior tank. Ok so we might need 2 of them or a second healer to keep them standing....

Or a second hard to help with no management. It would open up party compositions a lot and allow jobs to have some real diversity

But as long as duty finder and the 2 2 4 set up exists everything will be practically the same...

Even now before the consolidation the tanks are identical.. healing a warrior on my scholar is no different than healing a paladinor a dark. The amount of healing is the same regardless. That tank buster smacks a Saladin for 30k damage. It smacks a warrior and a dark for 30k damage to. It's no different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YitharV2

It's a bad thing because it takes up an extra space that could be used for something else. Honestly, they should have just made Paladin's stun off-GCD. >_>

---

It doesn't take any extra space, Paladin is the only tank that has a baseline stun. (not out of gcd tho)
Which means that even if you need a stun, you don't need to pick up the crossrole one. And having it on the gcd is the obvious trade-off for being a baseline spammable skill.

If you think DRKs Brutul swing clone and shield swipe/storm's path hybrid are what made it unique you need to get your priorities straight.

This sounds to me like a DRK QQing cause they have to share their toys, like WAR and PLD have since before DRK was even a thing.

The role system is in place so every job from now until the end of time can have a baseline kit of skills to do their job. Freeing up the devs to create more unique skills for future jobs rather than more clones of the same move. Now every new tank doesn't need a Rampart clone, every new tank doesn't need a brutul swing clone, they just take Rampart and low blow. Every new tank also doesn't need to have gla as a cross class or have a provoke clone because provoke is a role skill.

It's a shame you lost a native stun but you also gained a role skill silence. And as for homogenisation, DRK is currently the only tank without a stance based job gauge, it's probably going to be the highest damage tank of all 3 due to its lacking utility differentiating it from PLD and WAR.

Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YitharV2

Okay, let me revise what I said. They should have just gave Paladins an extra off-GCD stun. >_>

---

case and point of what I said above, this is exactly what they're trying to get away from with role skills. Now PLD and every tank from now until forever doesn't need their own unique oGCD stun that does exactly the same thing with a different name, they have a role skill for it.

Cabalabob gets it. They're actually moving away from homogenization with this. Now every tank can decide when and what to take to perform their baseline capabilities, and the devs can design the rest of each job to their heart's content because they'll all have the same necessities.

The difference now will be on each job's individual playstyle and core mechanics, not on which tank can actually outperform the other depending on the fight, which is in my opinion a far worse design choice than what we'll get in Stormblood.

This is a great change and it's really sad that people don't realize the goal of this. Hell, thanks to not having to carry most of the baseline tank skills (like Provoke, Silence, Rampart, Convalescence...) PLD is finally gonna have job mechanics. It will FINALLY have an identity with the new MP management burst and being the only tank with cast times and knightly party mitigation. WAR's entire shtick is managing your Inner Beast gauge in order to be able to Fell Cleave for literal days, which will fit the job's concept of going all out and berserk. Sadly, there's not much info on DRK yet, but at least we know it's gonna be all about managing your Edge Gauge. I'm sure they've come up with some interesting identity for DRK now.

Individual skills matter very little.

It's playstyle and party synergy that combat homogenization. There is no indication thus far that would suggest these role skills will cause homogenization problems.

I think those role skills are meant to differentiate main tank and off tank playstyle. like the off tank can choose low blow instead of rampart, and majn tank would take provoke and aoe provoke together. If that's so we could find two same jobs with different tools, in the case of 2 pld in the same df party they can just switch role skills inside of duty decide from the start who perform mt role. not optimal, but atleast better than current df.

Think the devs and Yoshi have made a substantial change to the game to clear the "meta" instead of blaming tanks for being much of the same, which when it comes to the latent tank abilities they should be with PLD being a brick wall, and DRK being able to be the gap between Warrior and Paladin.

I totally agree with the guys above two Warrior tanks in a party in the current "meta" would need a shit ton of healing, what players need to do is forget the old and adapt to the new, every "meta" as its day and you move on from it and get on to the next way of playing.

You will hear no complaint from Paladins now that much needed TLC as been done to the class to make them viable again properly, the WHM certainly have some cause to complain that they could use a little more utility on the tool belt but without seeing the 4.0 changes in the flesh we can only go by what we saw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Tank should have area's of expertise where they excel in, we should not be pushing for normalization. I do not and you should not want a war, dk, or pld to tank the same way and have the same kinda mitigation and cooldowns.

---

Im with you 100 percent and pali just basicly gets their same skills back this was a bad system when they could have simply just unlocked all cross class abilities

This new role skill sharing system actually gives more real options for us compared to the current cross class system. Right now you pretty much have like 4-5 mandatory cross class skills for every job (maybe except pld), so that's just an illusion of having freedom to choose.

For example if you're a war right now you only have one option for cross class skills: provoke, convalescence, awareness, second wind, internal release. Everything else is either completely or nearly useless.

With the new role skill system you can take provoke, rampart, shirk (if it's some sort of aggro control), which are generally useful everywhere. For the remaining slots you can take reprisal, convalescence, stun or silence, depending on whether the dungeon/trial/raid you're doing needs them. There's also anticipation which we don't know anything about yet.

I honestly can't see where the aoe provoke could be (more) useful than the other skills though, unless the devs design new encounters which make it absolutely necessary (adds spawning with huge aggro on random non tank party members).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

I think those role skills are meant to differentiate main tank and off tank playstyle. like the off tank can choose low blow instead of rampart, and majn tank would take provoke and aoe provoke together. If that's so we could find two same jobs with different tools, in the case of 2 pld in the same df party they can just switch role skills inside of duty decide from the start who perform mt role. not optimal, but atleast better than current df.

---

Full time MT/OT separation is a bad mentality, both tanks should actively split the tanking burden to utilize their defensive cds. By doing several tank swaps you can concentrate your cds and mitigate more dmg while maintaining low tank stance uptime on both tanks.

Same thing as MH/OH mentality, with whm/ast full time healing and sch almost full time dpsing, it's terribly inefficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aleph_null

Full time MT/OT separation is a bad mentality, both tanks should actively split the tanking burden to utilize their defensive cds. By doing several tank swaps you can concentrate your cds and mitigate more dmg while maintaining low tank stance uptime on both tanks.

Same thing as MH/OH mentality, with whm/ast full time healing and sch almost full time dpsing, it's terribly inefficient.

---

This. I don't know why people are happy to "streamline" or "detail" roles by literally just refusing to make best use of their toolkits. Both healers should have DoTs and any efficient HoTs running. They should have as high a combined raid DPS as possible, not just OH dps. A Warrior can still make use of his CDs he's popping for Fel Cleave chains by simply swapping in for their durations, especially given that the MT should hopefully be running in DPS stance by that point anyways.

And the split doesn't reduce homogenization in any way either. It just allows finer shades by which each job must rival another even more closely, creating 5 utterly homogenized roles, rather than 3 less homogenized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

If you think DRKs Brutul swing clone and shield swipe/storm's path hybrid are what made it unique you need to get your priorities straight.

---

While I'm not sure what you think was a Pacify/DMG done hybrid, given that DRK only has an (on-parry) DMG-mitigator in the form of a CD and its weaponskill is only an INT-reducer, Low Blow's refresh component was at least unique. Its loss won't break the job, but consider:

Would DRK be broken if its X-role 20% mitigation skill were still themed for its job (Shadowskin)?
Would WAR be broken if its X-role 20% mitigation skill were themed for its job (new name and animation)?
Would WAR be broken if its 5s stun still made use of its axe (Brutal Swing)?

SE seems to treat these X-role skills like some sort of ultimatum between job-specific aesthetics and role-wide applicability. But there is ultimatum. You can have BOTH. And I can't imagine we'd be any worse for it.

Each tank gets, let's say:

• a 20s 20% mitigation ability, 90s CD
• a single target peak-enmity ability, 40s CD
• an AoE peak-enmity ability, 90s CD
• a 20% healing taken increase ability, 90s CD
• critical hit taken prevention for 20 seconds, 90s CD
• etc., etc.

What you choose to call each for each job, or what animation you attach to the same effect, is irrelevant.
It will not shatter the X-role dream for DRKs to retain a Rampart animation, icon, and name that actually fits them. So why are we removing it?

This is assuming that the Dev team wants the current meta the way it stands... for all we know trying to hold agro while in dps stance may no longer be a thing... it feels to me like they want classes to stick closer to their roles than the current DPS or GTFO mentality... most of the complaints in all the threads now are about the disruption to the current meta... which may be a good thing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What you choose to call each for each job, or what animation you attach to the same effect, is irrelevant.
It will not shatter the X-role dream for DRKs to retain a Rampart animation, icon, and name that actually fits them. So why are we removing it?

---

I agree 100% with you. My guess is they are possibly planning on adding more tank classes and making it cross role makes it easier for them. I'm not quite a fan of that because I see it as really only benefiting the developers. I consider the name and animation to be part of the uniqueness of a class.

I agree thought. I know that some job would be more favorable in some situation if they were not equal. But that is how FF should be anyway. It would be weird to have a job with shield and sword doing the same damage as one with huge ass axe lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alise

I agree thought. I know that some job would be more favorable in some situation if they were not equal. But that is how FF should be anyway. It would be weird to have a job with shield and sword doing the same damage as one with huge ass axe lol...

---

You don't have to balance them around having the same personal dps, you can look at their raid dps contribution. Maybe tank A can do more dps than tank B and tank C, but tank B has offensive utilities that help physical dps in the group, tank C has defensive utilities that allow them to have less tank stance uptime or require less heals so the healers can contribute more. Of course they still won't be perfectly balanced, in certain fights some of them will still be preferred over the other, but the devs can definitely improve from what we currently have: drk + war (and also ast + sch, drg + nin + mch + brd) being ideal for every single floor in this raid tier.

According to some players this is actually still better than the balance in previous tiers, like war in 2.0, drg in 2.4-2.5, pld in 3.0-3.1, so the devs are definitely improving over time. I'm looking forward to how they'll balance the jobs in 4.0.

Tbh, FFXIV class description is just sooo wrong.

Let's says Dark Knight always be the high DPS in exchange for his own life, now become somewhat solid tank class where he barely need to spend his own life, and being so bulky, while doing so-so DPS.

Let's says Red Mage that has barely any support white spells, and doing equal damage to Black Mage and Summoner =_=

Let's says a guy in shinny armor with shield has similar DPS and HP to the guy with huge Axe...

agh, this is probably more WoW than FF. I think it is okay for job to be differentiate, if anything needed to be done, it is to let players gain access to multiple role/job gear easily so they can keep changing depend on favorable situation!

There was a time in 1.0 when players had access to top gear of every job. It was much more fun that way, I learn Pld until it get bored then change to learn Mnk next, then Blm, and so on.. And whenever party require any class, someone will change to it. So happy, and peaceful, no bias nor hate between jobs/classes. Easy to find party!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alise

Let's says Dark Knight always be the high DPS in exchange for his own life, now become somewhat solid tank class where he barely need to spend his own life, and being so bulky, while doing so-so DPS.

---

Wrong. It was only post FFXI that they have been a dps. Prior to that they were a heavy frontline fighter same as Knights, Paladins, Fighters and Berserkers. Darkness was less a DpS increase than a fight shortener, you still ended up taking roughly the same amount of damage as you would if you had just attacked normally.

FFXI made it a dps.

They're not homogenizing shit, all classes still have their own unique flavor and play differently.

It's not like in WoW where all healers had a Flash Heal that did the exact same thing but just named differently. Don't worry about it, it's fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorcerious

They're not homogenizing shit, all classes still have their own unique flavor and play differently.

It's not like in WoW where all healers had a Flash Heal that did the exact same thing but just named differently. Don't worry about it, it's fine.

---

This. People are complaining without even trying out. Warriors are High HP High self healing tanks with big damage, Paladins are the super mitigation wall who can take anything in the face without sweting and Dark Knights are a high magic defense tank with high MP management.


I Think SB will bring even more diversity with the job gauges. (With entirely new mechanics for DRK and PLD)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inuk9

This. People are complaining without even trying out. Warriors

---

Wrong warriors no longer have blood bath or access to second wind or foresight thus trading three df cool downs for one without bloodbath I wouldn't call them self healers anymore. Especially from what it looks like the stance dancing on them will be alot more difficult as it seems u lose gauge and ur df cool df cool downs do give u more

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

Wrong warriors no longer have blood bath or access to second wind or foresight thus trading three df cool downs for one without bloodbath I wouldn't call them self healers anymore. Especially from what it looks like the stance dancing on them will be alot more difficult as it seems u lose gauge and ur df cool df cool downs do give u more

---

What? I'm talking about current meta, no one knows how its gonna be on SB. But I bet Warriors will get more self heals to compensate that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

Wrong warriors no longer have blood bath or access to second wind or foresight thus trading three df cool downs for one without bloodbath I wouldn't call them self healers anymore. Especially from what it looks like the stance dancing on them will be alot more difficult as it seems u lose gauge and ur df cool df cool downs do give u more

---

Foresight is a joke and has nothing to do with self healing. WAR might be losing Bloodbath but at the same time based off of the live letter it appears that they might be trying to nerf tank damage in general by switching our attack power to be based off of STR again but removing our ability to equip STR accessories while also lowering the % increase from berserk. Additionally, with higher gear comes a larger HP pool and a greater need for mobs to hit harder as a result. With both of those in mind, it seems to me that the returns from bloodbath were going to take such a drastic hit that bloodbath may not have been viable anymore. The loss of second wind is annoying but we maintain equilibrium, thrill of battle, storm's path and presumably Inner Beast (unless I missed that they are axing inner beast) all of which self heal. Granted equilibrium, storms path and inner beast may take a hit in potency due to the aforementioned VIT/STR swap for attack power but it's impossible to know what they will be adding (or altering) to our toolkit which has self healing involved.

Stance dancing will seemingly cost you a portion of your gauge but at the same time each stance skill doesn't require the gauge (stacks) to be full nor does it require you to use it all for each skill. It's just a different trade off and should make resource management a bit more compelling on WAR.

I will be losing about half my healing ability on summoner with the accessory changes. There will also be a loss of crit and my sch is still running a determination deficit.
I put all my attribute points into mind tonight. Not sure if summoner will even be allowed to use it , guess we'll find out in June.
-edit
I know you read that up there. No its not a troll post. I worked damn hard the past 7 months balancing accuracy, determination while attempting to stack speed and crit.
Trying to boost my smn while not crippling either.
I was supposed to be detoxing from eorzea. Now I'm trying to fix this hot mess before June 15.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorcerious

They're not homogenizing shit, all classes still have their own unique flavor and play differently.

It's not like in WoW where all healers had a Flash Heal that did the exact same thing but just named differently. Don't worry about it, it's fine.

---

All XIV healers have a 400 potency heal and a second stronger heal, all effectively 650 potency at 17% crit, iirc, excluding Noct Sect bonus. That's hardly different from two strong heals but at different cast rates (expense for bonus speed instead of bonus potency).

In WoW's case there are embedded mechanics that can still differentiate them, though, e.g. Illumination, Riptide, etc. While I'd rather not see the equivalent of Cure I/II on every future healer, there are ways to make distinct gameplay even out of an (overly) familiar ability spread.