Battle system changes

I noticed on the pre order page for stormblood that battle system changes will be coming... What exactly are these changes?

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

I noticed on the pre order page for stormblood that battle system changes will be coming... What exactly are these changes?

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we wont no until later this month SE is keeping it top secret, but the main goal is to reduce button bloat is all we know, and a cross role system instead of class

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

I noticed on the pre order page for stormblood that battle system changes will be coming... What exactly are these changes?

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They will address the battle system changes in the next Live Letter (some time this month).
Expect merging / removal of ineffective actions, the introduction of Role Skills as opposed to Cross Class skills and job-specific UIs.

There's some information floating out there about possible changes in some interviews Yoshida has done, but not everything has been revealed about the changes yet.

Check this link.

Only things that we know is, they will streamline skills, change how the cross-skills system works and add more stuff to the UI to help the player when doing some skills.

"Please look forward to it, hai."

As I could see in that Reddit posted here, I'm kinda excited with the possible changes. I'm really hoping that they use skill modifiers (a.k.a Traits) than giving New skills from 61-70

They are changing the system to appease the 1 job only people and the people who will eventually buy level potions when those become a thing. Oh and yea to make it more streamlined that too.

We will find out on May 22.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...15377b688a4756

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

We will find out on May 22.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...15377b688a4756

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Not used to seeing Live Letters on a Monday.

The battle system change will not effect the way we fight enemies now? For example, they are still keeping "stay out of the red zone" mechanic when fighting bosses and mobs? ?

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Not used to seeing Live Letters on a Monday.

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Makes sense, since the servers will be down. Keeps the hype train going. Wrong Monday ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

The battle system change will not effect the way we fight enemies now? For example, they are still keeping "stay out of the red zone" mechanic when fighting bosses and mobs? ?

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No one here really knows, we can only make educated guesses. Wait for the 22nd.

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

Makes sense, since the servers will be down. Keeps the hype train going.

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I thought the servers are going to be down the 15/16th of May?

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I thought the servers are going to be down the 15/16th of May?

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Realized it after I posted. Bad work internet load times are bad. I edited it.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

The battle system change will not effect the way we fight enemies now? For example, they are still keeping "stay out of the red zone" mechanic when fighting bosses and mobs? ?

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

No one here really knows, we can only make educated guesses. Wait for the 22nd.

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They will not be taking out mob AoEs and markers. This is a staple part of combat and would require them to rework every mob in the game, including overworld trash mobs. The likely changes you will see are:
1) Streamlining of action combos
2) Rework of cross job skills (we already know know this is becoming role skills, just not the fine details)
3) Removal/reworking of underutilized skills (once more we know this is happening, just not the details)
4) Changes in damage calculations based on stats, potency and weapon damage, likely minor tweaks
5) Refinement of action animations including animation locks

Beyond those, I wouldn't expect much else.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

They are changing the system to appease the 1 job only people and the people who will eventually buy level potions when those become a thing. Oh and yea to make it more streamlined that too.

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I ran into yet ANOTHER DRK without GLD leveled yesterday. Appeasing can't come fast enough.

Battle System changes refer to the revamping of the current "Cross Class" system because of it's restrictions when becoming jobs. The restriction being that currently a job can only cross-class from 2 other classes, but since HW and now SB are job only, cross-class becomes an archaic system since it provides 0 means to be able to cross-class from those 5 jobs.

The other change is re-evaluation skills and abilities in the game and removing them based on how useful they are, for example they noted Fracture as an ability that could either be changed or removed because as it stands for a lv 60 WAR it's ability actually hurts WAR's flow rather than assist.

But I believe those are the two main points, they aren't going to remove the indicators for attacks or anything like that, battle revamp relates to changing the current "Cross-class" system and cleaning out class/job abilities that have become outdated/useless.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I ran into yet ANOTHER DRK without GLD leveled yesterday. Appeasing can't come fast enough.

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This is a little off topic. But just because they make more tools accessible to people like that doesn't mean they'll use them. If they wanted to use Provoke on their DRK they would have gotten it before leveling DRK. But they didn't, which means even if it were available, they wouldn't have used it.

Devs cannot fix players like this, only themselves.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This is a little off topic. But just because they make more tools accessible to people like that doesn't mean they'll use them. If they wanted to use Provoke on their DRK they would have gotten it before leveling DRK. But they didn't, which means even if it were available, they wouldn't have used it.

Devs cannot fix players like this, only themselves.

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They might not know they need to get it. The game doesn't tell you, you need certain skills. You only learn from people telling you or researching your job. New people coming into the game don't usually do detailed research into jobs. They just pick them up and start playing. Provoke or gld skills are not "needed" for normal questing. Learning this information comes more naturally the longer they play.There are some players that are bad but not knowing to level gld for DRK doesn't automatically make you bad, if you don't know. The game should guide new players a little more in that area. I'm glad they are changing it. If you need a skill for certain jobs, the game needs to tell you about it or give it to you.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

They might not know they need to get it. The game doesn't tell you, you need certain skills.

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I'm really hoping that they err on the side of making cross-class skills more 'visible' via a role-based UI, rather than actually removing the need for players to level different classes.

That said, I suspect they'll go the appeasement route, and just strip out enough depth to make the system idiot-proof. It's been their modus operandi since 2.0 was released.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

They are changing the system to appease the 1 job only people and the people who will eventually buy level potions when those become a thing. Oh and yea to make it more streamlined that too.

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The one job only people? I'm pretty sure the reason for them changing the skill system is to do away with 2.0 content going forward. Besides the cross class system was so poorly implemented to start with you almost had to level up an entire class just for one skill to properly utilize your main class. All the classes should of already had access to all the skills they needed in order to function, it's mind boggling why they didn't do this with 3.0.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

They might not know they need to get it. The game doesn't tell you, you need certain skills. You only learn from people telling you or researching your job. New people coming into the game don't usually do detailed research into jobs. They just pick them up and start playing. Provoke or gld skills are not "needed" for normal questing. Learning this information comes more naturally the longer they play.There are some players that are bad but not knowing to level gld for DRK doesn't automatically make you bad, if you don't know. The game should guide new players a little more in that area. I'm glad they are changing it. If you need a skill for certain jobs, the game needs to tell you about it or give it to you.

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This is as well. This game does a horrible job presenting information, either it doesn't do it or it does it to little to late. I tried tooth and nail to get a friend of mine to play this game. He wanted to try all the classes out to find the area he preferred to play as, this was before the Novice Hall came out, and he didn't want to take up other people's time while he was learning the basics of each 3 classes. When Novice Hall came out I told him how they implemented it and he thought it was slap in the face to start what he calls "the training quests" when you already slogged through a few levels of the game with no mention of a guide that helps people.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This is a little off topic. But just because they make more tools accessible to people like that doesn't mean they'll use them.

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Not necessarily - case in point, there are white mages that don't use cleric stance, despite it coming free.

However, it increases the likelihood they'll do so, because it suddenly takes a whole lot less effort to get the spell (deterrent 1) and they no longer need to play a class they have no interest in to get it (deterrent 2). As an additional plus side, if the person simply was ignorant of the skills importance, you can fix the issue within the same instance at the cost of a mere 30 seconds skill lockout.

Personally, I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna make alt-characters just a little less of a pain.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

The one job only people? I'm pretty sure the reason for them changing the skill system is to do away with 2.0 content going forward. Besides the cross class system was so poorly implemented to start with you almost had to level up an entire class just for one skill to properly utilize your main class. All the classes should of already had access to all the skills they needed in order to function, it's mind boggling why they didn't do this with 3.0.

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I think you're right as to the motivation, but it's sad to see. The class system was intended to fill the same role as the Subjob system in FFXI, which provided an astonishingly deep level of customization, particularly when participating in low-man / solo content. I don't think sacrificing this mechanism on the alter of simplicity and accessibility is the right way to go.

That said, CLEARLY the current cross-class system doesn't provide any real semblance of choice or customization. It needs to be addressed. I just disagree with the notion that classes should come 'pre-packaged' so to speak.

At the level the class system currently exists, and will (from what we know) in the future, I don't really see the point of it but to reduce creative expression. I mean for every ability that is shared that is one less theme'd ability to your job itself. Unless they're going to have it sort of morph slightly when you use it.

So assuming for example you have something like invigorate, looks and is called the same for all jobs with the same mechanic for all - that's boring, imo, when we could have each have their own self sufficiency skill that behaves and looks different. Like any shared tank skill could be theme'd holy/light, dark, or rage, rather than "boop here is the same exact skill for you all".

The FFXI like job system where it adds customization and thought, yeah okay I can understand it's existence, but what we have now - I don't see why we need it except to reduce the creativity of our jobs visually, thematically, and mechanically.

(Of course I like that I can switch jobs, I'm not saying get rid of that, just suggesting that the job skill sharing feature is only a burden now and not a gift).

Also this reddit page isn't so bad in context of this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_know_so_far/

https://i.imgur.com/leuWYjP.png
https://i.imgur.com/GgFLcb4.png
https://i.imgur.com/LpwsoUS.png

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Originally Posted by Malzian

4) Changes in damage calculations based on stats, potency and weapon damage, likely minor tweaks

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Wouldn't read too much into this one. They had to 'adjust damage calculations, etc' in HW expansion too.

Amounted to little more than tuning the scaling curves of stats to accommodate the new max lvl & ilvl. They have to tweak the pipe-work to keep the stats to yielding what they currently do.

Will have to do that again no doubt.

I hope the role skill require to level up each class of that role to level 30

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Originally Posted by Felis

I hope the role skill require to level up each class of that role to level 30

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From what we know its just every so many levels more skills magically appear that you can use from the role list. Maybe it will work different but thats all we know from some translations and interviews. You won't have to level other classes/jobs within that role now.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Wouldn't read too much into this one. They had to 'adjust damage calculations, etc' in HW expansion too.

Amounted to little more than tuning the scaling curves of stats to accommodate the new max lvl & ilvl. They have to tweak the pipe-work to keep the stats to yielding what they currently do.

Will have to do that again no doubt.

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Well, I did qualify that with "minor tweaks". You might see a slide of a couple DPS up or down, but I doubt it would be ultimately noticeable without hard data crunching. Still, it qualifies as a battle system adjustment so I included it anyway.

Removing cleric stance ;D

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

we wont no until later this month SE is keeping it top secret, but the main goal is to reduce button bloat is all we know, and a cross role system instead of class

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Main goal: to reduce button bloat
New actions: look a lot like button bloat.

The new DRG skill looks like a Deathflare equivalent, and the Monk skill some type of instant GL3 booster. The first, if anything like DWT-burner (just with BotD now), will be used once per burst phase at an exact (last possible) second unless its intended target would disappear earlier (in which case it'd be used at that last possible second). That would essentially increase skill gap in order to simply afford more obligatory burst dynamics, with zero added thought, only an extra key-stroke. The second simply devalues the primary function of PB while affording another rarely used skill a free, albeit likely still inferior, use. Here's hoping they're not what they look like, because that would be pure bloat. (Note: the others aren't much better in terms of functional overlap or what will most likely end up as additional unvaried usage.)

Here's hoping we'll see stacked actions or combo skills made individually usable, rather than that very obvious opportunity to reduce bloat going to the wayside while more nuanced skills get axed....

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

They might not know they need to get it. The game doesn't tell you, you need certain skills.

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If they don't know, its because they don't want to. I don't get why people keep kicking the can down the road on who to hold responsible.

When some first plays a game. It is their responsibility to learn it. How did the Very First 50 Warrior know to get Provoke? They tinkered with it, they read how cross class worked in the ingame guide. Then they told their friends who told other friends, and then someone posted a forum post and spread it further until there was a website one could find on google.

Why don't we hold everyone to the same standard as the first pioneers of a game? If it was that archaic, then no one would have Provoke other than Paladins. The difference between player skill is how much effort into learning the game, practicing their mechanics, and adapting to new situations.

If someone doesn't have provoke, its because they didn't put in the effort to know that they need it, the effort to get it, and most likely didn't think they needed it. If they leveled a DRK to 60 and entered content that needed it. They learned right then that they should have made more of an effort with their role. And even then there's a likely chance they won't care. Short of giving it to them automatically, and then locking out abilities except for it, they probably still won't use it.

Its common decency to make sure you don't let a group down before entering a group goal oriented duty. If you go in there without the proper tools. Then you let the group down. This cannot at this time be done by 'accident'. 'I didn't know' actually means, 'I didn't care enough to look it up.'

But its easier to blame the game and tell the dev 'fix it for me'. Then it is to hold a person personally responsible. If you kick the can down the road, you eventually will have to deal with it again. In this case. Sure give it to them. But what will you do when they 'don't remember to use it'?

I'd deal with them now. Even if its an 'innocent' (and I don't believe in 60 levels of innocence in this case) then they will still learn. If they are as altruistic as you all claim every newbie to be, then they will right their wrong. So in the end, everything works out.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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Such ignorance, first and foremost there were many people when 2.0 launched that didn't have every cross class skill available, I myself didn't have blood for blood once I hit 50 on BRD, I didn't even realize I was missing it because it wasn't a requirement to open up BRD unlike PUG was. I was busy learning my main class and not thinking about nearly maxing out a 3rd class for one skill. Granted with provoke, it's unlocked earlier than almost any skill minus cleric stance that I'm aware of it, it doesn't me this system isn't horribly designed, it's in most cases a horrible attempt to get other players to play other classes with the incentive to use typically one skill out of the toolkit for your main.

More so, cross class abilities stopped being relevant on 3.0 release as 0 skill has the ability to cross over, it's developmental flawed to not give classes the skills they need to function going forward, you can't shoe horn players into old content for one skill and say with a straight face the system works like it should. As I stated with the Novice Hall and the issue my friend had with it, who might I add didn't buy a sub after his trial because the lack of training the game offers, you can't release a game and keep it updated while expecting new players to be able to learn both the old ways of the game, and the new simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

More so, cross class abilities stopped being relevant on 3.0 release as 0 skill has the ability to cross over, it's developmental flawed to not give classes the skills they need to function going forward, you can't shoe horn players into old content for one skill and say with a straight face the system works like it should..

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I've never debated that fact. The system is flawed. But how many MMOs have flawed systems that take years to be fixed or worse, never fix them? With that said, my point is the system we have is the system we have currently. Therefor everyone is playing under the same system and should be held to the same standard.

If we all threw our hands up and said, "Oop! Systems flawed, lets not do content that requires us to participate in the flawed system" then none of us would have completed some of the harder content. But instead we found ways to mitigate the system or simply toughed it out. The first players did it, the next gen of players did it, and the newer players certainly can do it.

Should it be fixed? Absolutely. But we don't let people off simply because they're not willing to put in the same effort in as the first players who cleared through said content.

Not knowing about a skill because you are a new player doesn't mean you aren't making effort. Those two things are completely unrelated. Even the developers have admitted the cross class system is a bad game design which is why they are changing it. You shouldn't have to level other jobs for some basic functionality. If these were advanced skills for high level gameplay like getting that extra 5 % DPS or whatever that would be different but essential skills for gameplay is ridiculous. This is the first game I've ever played where I had to do this and I would imagine so for the vast majority of players, it isn't something anyone really thinks about too much until they start playing other jobs to higher levels which a lot of players never do. Maybe if you could actually see the cross class abilities before you gained them more people would notice them but they don't even show up. Players shouldn't have to go to some place outside of the game to see what the skills are.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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Yes and how many of those MMOs die or go free to play because they don't make an effort to fix the flaws? We do not play under a system built for cross class abilities, we haven't since 2.0, again SE made all 3.0 abilities solely job abilities. DRK, MCH, and AST don't feature any base job, they were designed for currently players to pick them up and already know what the basics of each job signifies.

Your entire idea is based off brand new players having the knowledge as players since day one, let's take a new player off the boat. They want to play WHM, so they level CNJ to 30 and ACN to 15, and they go about their time and find out they need swift cast, but they find out because someone from 2.0 told them about it, not the game itself. So now that new player learned something that the game doesn't attempt to make known, only because of someone else.

Again I didn't know I needed Blood for Blood at all until I got to 50, I seen MNK using it and figured it must be something that only physical classes get, and me being ranged wouldn't get that since the trade off of the skill is you take more damage as well, and being ranged I'm not in the immediate area of danger, therefore in my mind that particular skill shouldn't have crossed over.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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You know how ridiculous this reads i hope?

Thats a combination of old people yelling at clouds and saying back in my days we hadnt this so im not using this + because its possible to do it this ways and people before me do this way it should be this way, which is some dangerous line of thinking

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Yes and how many of those MMOs die or go free to play because they don't make an effort to fix the flaws?

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Where did I say they shouldn't? Again you are operating under the assumption I think it should stay how it is, I don't.

But since it IS how it is, we have to deal with it, as the alternative is to what? Quit?. And I don't believe its wrong to think a level 60 'newbie' should be expected to know as much or be expected to learn as much as the first level 50s in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Wouldn't read too much into this one. They had to 'adjust damage calculations, etc' in HW expansion too.

Amounted to little more than tuning the scaling curves of stats to accommodate the new max lvl & ilvl. They have to tweak the pipe-work to keep the stats to yielding what they currently do.

Will have to do that again no doubt.

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^ This seemed mostly to be de-tunings for the stats over the increased level cap to ensure that haste, etc., didn't start the new expansion high already (or therefore end the expansion at ridiculous levels). Heck, the changes to how Crit works that came with HW can also be seen as a slight Monk/DRG buff and a noticeable Bard nerf.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

More so, cross class abilities stopped being relevant on 3.0 release as 0 skill has the ability to cross over

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Because after lv 50 you don't get class skills anymore, only job skills.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I think you're right as to the motivation, but it's sad to see. The class system was intended to fill the same role as the Subjob system in FFXI, which provided an astonishingly deep level of customization, particularly when participating in low-man / solo content. I don't think sacrificing this mechanism on the alter of simplicity and accessibility is the right way to go.

That said, CLEARLY the current cross-class system doesn't provide any real semblance of choice or customization. It needs to be addressed. I just disagree with the notion that classes should come 'pre-packaged' so to speak.

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The "depth" in FFXI's subjob system was a false choice though. Sure you could technically do whatever you liked, but in my 10 years the community always had BiS and god help you if you deviated even a little.