So Cleric Stance

I hear cleric stance was removed because holy was too strong, and so instead of nerfing holy or all healer aoe's if that was the issue. You remove cleric stance?
I mean wtf who does this?

So why you guys making healers reliant on everyone else to get wins. I know dps is gonna be like i lost because my healer was noob. But they dps they know no better 55% of the game is dps and 10% of them actually know what they are talking about.
Jokes aside.

Bring cleric stance back in pvp because i'm and pretty god damn sure its forcing 20-40 percent of healers to not pvp or more, i just got mostly finished with the pve and the moment i found out cleric was gone i hung up the astro and decided to pvp on my DK and i can imagine im far from being the only healer who's done that.

Moral of the story getting rid of cleric stance will slow kill your pvp if it already hasn't bring it back or atleast a pvp version of it thats not as strong, or nerf healer aoe

I'm... a little confused. Why would you need cleric stance in PVP? It swaps your INT and MIND so that you do more attack damage right? You shouldn't be attacking if you're a healer on PVP. It's like throwing pebbles at the opposing team.

Or did I misunderstand?

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

I hear cleric stance was removed because holy was too strong, and so instead of nerfing holy or all healer aoe's if that was the issue. You remove cleric stance?
I mean wtf who does this?

So why you guys making healers reliant on everyone else to get wins. I know dps is gonna be like i lost because my healer was noob. But they dps they know no better 55% of the game is dps and 10% of them actually know what they are talking about.
Jokes aside.

Bring cleric stance back in pvp because i'm and pretty god damn sure its forcing 20-40 percent of healers to not pvp or more, i just got mostly finished with the pve and the moment i found out cleric was gone i hung up the astro and decided to pvp on my DK and i can imagine im far from being the only healer who's done that.

Moral of the story getting rid of cleric stance will slow kill your pvp if it already hasn't bring it back or atleast a pvp version of it thats not as strong, or nerf healer aoe

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https://m.popkey.co/ee5665/64mkb.gif

lol nah, I don't think you've realized this, but unlike pve, pvp is incredibly healing intensive. You don't have time to dps. Heal your team.

You could use your dps abilities in defensive ways that could help your team though;

-If you see an enemy running away from your melee dps? slow their ass down with swiftcast + stella/stone

-You need to get away from annoying enemy dps and/or interupt melee lb? swiftcast + ice 2/holy.

-you wanna interupt enemy bursts at the begining of the match whichnot only helps you but your team too? sprint + swiftcast +holy or sprint + celestial opp

-you want to push some one away from you and sometimes even kill them if you aim it properly? fluid aura


You gotta think outside the box and i know what I'm about to say is going to be taken out of context but in pvp, you are a healer + support. You are there for that only.


edit - now that i think about it, if for some reason you really wanted to dps as healer, you could just equip int accessories and wear the field commander set and go to town. It would gimp your healing though and people would think you're trolling.

I don't think you understand the healer role in pvp. There's some great posts on how to be a good healer in pvp on this sub forum. Might want to check them out.

So basically 2 warriors and a dragoon just said Nah you don't need to be able to defend your self at all. So basically by your standard your dps classes shouldn't have any utility right your job is to do dps so why you need an escape, or a stun or a slow?

You reaction to healers have half there bar being useless is i want my heals so your not allowed to hurt anyone but yourself?
Moral of the story here now is basically if you wanna be a healer you need to be reliant on dps to get anything done, but if your dps a healer would make your life easier but it not needed because u can still get objectives done.


O gtfo people like you will refuse to heal on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

So why you guys making healers reliant on everyone else to get wins.

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Good healers can carry way better bad dps as bad healer can carry good dps.

Please don't be that guy that lets dps at ice in frontlines die, because you want to deal dmg too. Without cleric stance your spells do only like 10-15% of the normal dmg, and ice has also that fancy 50% magic buff, because SE wanted to nerf blackmages, because they can attack from the distance (not like bards and machinist can do that too ? but whatever).

Listen to the girl
http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Good healers can carry way better bad dps as bad healer can carry good dps.

Without cleric stance your spells do only like 10-15% or the normal

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No its a straight 50-60% damage loss.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

So basically 2 warriors and a dragoon just said Nah you don't need to be able to defend your self at all.

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I've played healer in over 1000 matches of FL and a great deal in feast ( i leveled healers just for pvp actually, scarcely heal in pve) and I know how to defend myself without personal dps thank you very much. I've listed 4 ways you can turn offensive abilities in pve into defensive abilities in pvp. You'd be wise to follow them.

You could also...idk, outheal damage taken or ask communicate with your team mates and tell them to defend you especially if you have a paladin with you. Use your pvp abilities and pve utility too. Research is all it takes. You'd then realise that stone 3 and malefic 2 are useless in pvp as it requires cast time and even with CS it won't do as much damage as any real dps.

You seem to have no idea what you're talking about. healers aren't useless. Try playing monk or dragoon when you have battle high/fever without one when you're up against more than one opponent then you'll see what i mean.

As a astro and whm i can survive up to 2 (maybe 3 w whm) dps/tank easily, stun them and run for my team, i never felt confident enough to (for science) dps in pvp, only a few debuffs , for stun/heavy purposes , and i feel so proud when i can make my party live through intensive aggression, if cleric were on in pvp i can see a lot of healers forgeting their function to dps ineffectively instead, while their team dies one by one.
(Btw that comes from a main healer since 3.0, when i started to play)

Healers heal and support their team in PvP.

If you're more worried about defending yourself, learn to utilize your cc/mitigation skills. At the worst, play a dps or tank.
Your team should be covering and defending you. Especially if they like living.
Nothing is 100% guaranteed. Once you're out of big healing CDs, if you're not out of danger, you're in trouble.
Icebound Tomeliths in Shatter have a 50% magic resistance. Healer dps on ice is a waste of MP.
Healers heal and support their team in PvP, end of story.

-Tanks Get to do damage and be tanky and get to heal themselves.

-Dps gets to have amazing utility skills to lock down support or escape and do damage.

-And Healers Get to support (and btw with cleric stance you lose that support advantage while you dps while everyone keeps both)

Yeah sounds fair. The response to not having cleric stance is wait to be saved bro, if a healer is not around and your a dps or a tank you got coping skills. But if your a healer pop your cd's and no one comes get your ass handed to you and/or run away. I have no idea how you guys think its fair for every other class to be able to 1v1 or 1v2 fine if they are good but not healers your only option is to heal thru it and run or heal thru it and wait for some one to save you?

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

So basically 2 warriors and a dragoon just said Nah you don't need to be able to defend your self at all.

O gtfo people like you will refuse to heal on purpose.

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You want screenshots of my pvp healing achievements? Yes, I am a warrior main. However, I heal in pvp, both Frontlines and Feast. I'm almost to my third Wolf in White Robes achievement. I've got my Gloria key. The other wins were on other roles because I'm versatile, and I'm not gonna be one of those people who queue in and refuse to change because they want kills.

A good healer is VERY hard to kill in pvp but you're not there to do damage, though I do delight in getting a Rampage. Healers are there to heal, stoneskin, and cc. If I want to get kills I roll Bard.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

You want screenshots of my pvp healing achievements? Yes, I am a warrior main. However, I heal in pvp, both Frontlines and Feast. I'm almost to my third Wolf in White Robes achievement. I've got my Gloria key. The other wins were on other roles because I'm versatile, and I'm not gonna be one of those people who queue in and refuse to change because they want kills.

A good healer is VERY hard to kill in pvp but you're not there to do damage, though I do delight in getting a Rampage. Healers are there to heal, stoneskin, and cc. If I want to get kills I roll Bard.

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Okay so if we can just say what classes are there to do i can say tanks are there to tank so they should have no damage at all. Just remove all offense abilities and replace them with cc's.

Thats what your argument is right there.

And further more tanks are hard to kill to so if thats the case they should be unable to kill anyone ever anyways. Again by your standards.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Okay so if we can just say what classes are there to do i can say tanks are there to tank so they should have no damage at all. Just remove all offense abilities and replace them with cc's.

Thats what your argument is right there.

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Tanks don't work the same in pvp as they do in pve, either. It's one of the reasons I hate playing tank in pvp, though I will if no one else does.

There isn't an enmity table in pvp. I can't provoke someone off a healer. I can, however, go harass and stun lock the other team's healers or hold someone in place for the dps to burst them down. But I can't actually "tank" opposing team members. That's why tanks roll dps stance unless they need tank stance if they're getting jumped.

Not sure what you mean by "argument." My intent is to inform. You decided my point was invalid because I have "warrior" up by my name. I'm providing more information that I do, in fact, heal pvp.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Tanks don't work the same in pvp as they do in pve, either. It's one of the reasons I hate playing tank in pvp, though I will if no one else does.

TherThat's why tanks roll dps stance unless they need tank stance if they're getting jumped.

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Yep, they roll dps unless they getting ganked then they go into tank stance, and if they don't have to go into tank stance they go into dps stance and wait for it do damage.

I roll heals and if im ganked i run away and when im in those moments when i don't have to heal and i have a low hp target in front me what you know what i do, i wait for a dps to do something or wait for the enemy to run.

WHY CAN'T YOU SEE what i do?
People get to multi task and be viable in different stages of the fight but not healers no you have one job and only that job.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

-Tanks Get to do damage and be tanky and get to heal themselves.

-Dps gets to have amazing utility skills to lock down support or escape and do damage.

-And Healers Get to support (and btw with cleric stance you lose that support advantage while you dps while everyone keeps both)

Yeah sounds fair. The response to not having cleric stance is wait to be saved bro, if a healer is not around and your a dps or a tank you got coping skills.

But if your a healer pop your cd's and no one comes get your ass handed to you and/or run away.

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healers don't need to dps, because your team already has dps...what part of that don't you undersatnd? you're there to HEAL because you're a HEALER. You have utility to defend yourself and there's no situation where you need to do damage.

You should be reposing enemy players and healing your team and buffing them for the next encounter, that is your job. If you want to deal damage, level a dps class and deal damage.

p..s i just looked at your lodestone....and lol, for the love of god level your gladiator to ATLEAST 22 and get provoke, and level your conjurer to 34 for stone skin.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

You have utility to defend yourself and there's no situation where you need to do damage.

You should be reposing enemy players and healing your team and buffing them for the next encounter, that is your job. If you want to deal damage, level a dps class and deal damage.

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Tanks should have no way of dps'ing then since there's dps in the game.
Dps should have no way of saving themselves either or healing because there are healers.
There should be no way for any class to participate in any other stage of a fight other then the one that the role its designed to.

We should remove blood for blood and Convalescence and blood bath. Because it the job of the healer to heal and if anyone else heals we have balancing problems. You know what cure should be removed from black mages and physiq shold be removed from summoners too.

Is that what your saying because if its not your gonna have to give me more details.

Look, in a nutshell: pvp in FFXIV was, and continues to be, poorly implemented but it IS working as intended. Just because you don't like the way it works doesnt make it less functional as-is.

I'm a huge advocate of healer dps in PVE content.

PVP is not the place for healer dps. That doesn't mean you can't get kills. And you do have some offensive abilities. Do you have your PVP toolbar set up? Have you ranked up your pvp skills?

This seems like an issue where you're expecting your pve experience to cross over. It doesn't. It's a different mode of play. Adjust accordingly.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

This seems like an issue where you're expecting your pve experience to cross over. It doesn't. It's a different mode of play. Adjust accordingly.

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No i was expecting my class to be able to be able to kill people it may take longer but actually do it. Like ever every other mmo i've played as a healer, you have the capcity to take some one out its slow and methodical but you have it. I was expecting the same courtesy tanks get when they go into pvp.

Not excessive damage but enough to get by.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

p..s i just looked at your lodestone....and lol, for the love of god level your gladiator to ATLEAST 22 and get provoke, and level your conjurer to 34 for stone skin.

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Don't need stone skin nocturnal stance...i don't even think you understand how astrologians work...

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Tanks should have no way of dps'ing then since there's dps in the game.
Dps should have no way of saving themselves either or healing because there are healers.
There should be no way for any class to participate in any other stage of a fight other then the one that the role its designed to.

We should remove blood for blood and Convalescence and blood bath. Because it the job of the healer to heal and if anyone else heals we have balancing problems. You know what cure should be removed from black mages and physiq shold be removed from summoners too.

Is that what your saying because if its not your gonna have to give me more details.

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wrong, tanks aren't there to dps, genius, they're there to CC'd and defend/harass healers/black mages and before anyone says anything, outside of fell cleave, warrior can't dps much at all.

DPS has extremely limited amount of self healing and defensive buffs. You'd know this if you had a dps class leveled.

Healers can actually DPS if you did the whole thing what i said earlier - equip intelligence gear and go to town, you wont hit as hard as an actual dps class but hard enough to be somewhat of a threat.

Why should we remove blood for blood? what? and conva? convalescence HELPS healers. Why don't you work on getting the actual ability first. The healing abilities DPS has is not even powerful at all and tanks work completely differently in pvp compared to pve...and since when do summoners and black mages ever use cure? in pvp and pve?? they aren't healers....

Look, you obviously have no idea at all what you're on about. Just stop lol.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Don't need stone skin nocturnal stance...i don't even think you understand how astrologians work...

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mitigation is mitigation, smarty pants. if you knew anything at all, which you obviously don't, you'd know One is insta cast, one isn't you'd use them differently depending on the situation. I've play AST in pvp, for over a year. You ain't even got your garo mounts yet lol.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

mitigation is mitigation, smarty pants. if you knew anything at all, which you obviously don't, you'd know One is insta cast, one isn't you'd use them differently depending on the situation. I've play AST in pvp, for over a year. You ain't even got your garo mounts yet lol.

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I usually don't do this, but im going to say you need to stop posting in this thread you officially some how not added any content to your post and its fairly long and some how proceeded to insult your own intelligence and my own. Reread your post and see if you actually rebutted anything i said. Seriously there's no way to respond to any of your individual statements.

Your job is to keep people alive, if you don't want to do that, roll another class.

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Originally Posted by Murph

Your job is to keep people alive, if you don't want to do that, roll another class.

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I understand what my job is i do that well. Because of that job im supposed to do nothing else? Do tanks have that issue honestly?

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

I usually don't do this, but im going to say you need to stop posting in this thread you officially some how not added any content to your post and its fairly long and some how proceeded to insult your own intelligence and my own. Reread your post and see if you actually rebutted anything i said. Seriously there's no way to respond to any of your individual statements.

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How have I insulted my intelligence at all? please provide examples.

You opened up this thread stating something rather absurd and ignorant considering your lodestone profile, you don't have anywhere near any significant experience in pvp. I >someone WITH significant experience in pvp< responded and told you were wrong and offered good advie on how you should play the job role in question. To which you responded with the ignorant and snarky remark;

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

So basically 2 warriors and a dragoon just said Nah you don't need to be able to defend your self at all.

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and i repsond accordingly reinforcing my original post, healers are there to heal. Instead of taking the advise multiple people have said on here about numerous things brought up, you continue to argue like you know it all when you so obviously don't and now you're playing victim??? why are you even here?

What do you mean by "nothing else"? There is plenty you can do besides healing, it's just not damage.

If you get focused, just keeping yourself alive should be distracting enough tanks and dps that YOUR tanks and DPS can kill something else. That is the game, it's actually very well balanced team vs team. The imbalance in FFXIV PvP is the skill gap from person to person, not job to job.

If all things are equal (which you don't see often, maybe in 4v4 ranked feast in all Plat+ matches) then class imbalance can matter. Even in FL it's more organization, timing and teamwork than any 1 ability or skill being nerfed or overpowered.

It's a delicate balance, but if you take away "dps" from a tank, why would they need to mitigate any dmg, who would attack them?

It's a lot deeper than most think or care to look into.

It's been like this since forever, don't really understand why you cry about it now. Want to do damage? Go dps, it's that easy.

This entry to the "Healing Horror Stories" thread sums up the OP's issue:

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Tried out pvp on my astrologian, cleric stanced grayed out, move cursor read cleric stance is unavailable in pvp. Never entered in pvp again with my healer.

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"So why you guys making healers reliant on everyone else to get wins"

Cleric stance will not solve this for you. Especially when they'll gladly los you and do dumb overextends anyway forcing you to heal more, which means you spending less time in Cleric stance. You've got people from ranked here who have played anywhere betweeen hundreds and thousands of games here telling you why this won't work, if you're just going to refute every single example as to why this isn't the solution then I don't know why you'd even ask for a discussion when you just want self-validation.

Cleric stance in PvP is something that is not needed. In the current modes, you frankly have no time to even set foot in Cleric Stance.

With even my limited time in the Feast, there is no time to toggle cleric stance. With people and jobs' burst that can kill a person in one or two GCDs, why would you enter it in the first place? Your team would die (if the other team knows what they're doing) in the time that Cleric Stance is able to be toggled off.

In Frontlines, you shouldn't be trying to DPS ice unless it's only your team around a big ice for example. This only happens when there's a double A pop. Especially with the 50% magic damage buff the ice has.

Not having Cleric Stance also removes much of the power that certain comps would have if they did. If we had Cleric Stance active, who's to say that we won't see full parties of WHMs spamming Holy at people trying to kill them? Every Holy would do 3k damage and only 4 of them would kill someone. It's Cometeor stacking but on GCD.

Cleric Stance is disabled to prevent cheese like that as well as making healers actually do their job and heal. Everyone expects a healer to heal, but if they just DPS, then they're not a healer, much like those healer bots in FL.

Healers are reliant on others in PVP just as DPS and tank are reliant on healers. It's intertwined that way. Yes, we have a couple self-heals but they're nowhere NEAR as good as those coming from a healer. In PVP your goal, like it or not, is to heal yourself and your teammates and get the dogpile of enemy dps and tank off of you so that you can continue to focus on your goal. Throwing in the ability for healers to DPS in PVP would just add another layer of complexity to an already stressful job.

I guess no one remembers the broken mess that was cleric stance healers in FL: Secure. Skilled healers in FL were unkillable whilst having the fighting power of DPS.

It's not even about having time to toggle cleric on. In FL, there are many instances you could. It's about holding back a healer's potential to be semi-gods on the battle field.

No, it's not coming back and it should stay that way.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

I guess no one remembers the broken mess that was cleric stance healers in FL: Secure. Skilled healers in FL were unkillable whilst having the fighting power of DPS.

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It was awesome!
( ' w ')b

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Don't need stone skin nocturnal stance...i don't even think you understand how astrologians work...

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If you don't understand how essential stoneskin is in PvP (it's not just all about you, you do have a team to look after...) you haven't been PvPing long enough to even have an opinion anyone would remotely take seriously. If you were my healer and you didn't even apply one of the most fundemental buffs that healers use, It's going to be one interesting ride.

I can't tell you how many times I've died with Battle Fever literally at the feet of my healer...while they're casting Stone III. So no, you heal in PvP and when you've been doing it long enough you'll reflect on your current stance and realize how absurd it is.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

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You must not play Feast or anything with living players. Try turning on Cleric Stance in Feast for 5secs and you'll see why it doesn't work. Our job as DPS is to well.. kill things! And help the team when we can. Use Mantra, Stun/Silence/Bind enemy team, give MP, and stop incoming damage if you're a SMN.

What the heck are you talking about with Healers relying on DPS? A good healer can fend off DPS for a long time. DPS and Tanks NEED healers if they want to survive longer than 5secs. Healers are capable of self-preservation. DPS are not.

Your job is to: Heal, stop incoming damage from DPS(that includes watching for bursts), support your team ESPECIALLY as an AST(It's the most supportive healer in PvP imo). Give cards, fend off enemies either by running, stopping, or asking the team for support. No you do not go kill the 3 people trying to kill you. That's not your job. Your job is to heal, not kill. No one said you couldn't attack. Which you can. Stun people, ->heavy people, push people. This is why your "Tanks shouldn't attack then! >:0" doesn't work. Tanks aren't DPS. They can attack people but they aren't built to kill. And news flash.. Tanks need to hit stuff to inflict the desired effect : p.

Your argument: "Other MMOs had it" doesn't work either. Why? Because this isnt "other MMO", it's FFXIV. Those rules don't apply.

You need to PvP more. Alot more before you try to tell everyone off. No one likes a know-it-all who doesn't have experience under his/her belt and then doesn't at least have the skill to have some form of backup. It doesn't work. Trust me.

This guy got a lot of hate but I can understand where he is coming from. That being said, I understand where everyone else is coming from too.

I think things got a little off track. If OP wishes cleric had a bit better damaging capabilities, so what? And yes, cleric is a healing role, your main purpose is to heal. At the same time though, if OP wishes cleric could rely on itself a bit more for damage, especially when solo'ng and things of that nature, I don't see anything wrong with that and, as a cnj/whm myself, I too would like it if cleric had a little more damage potential.

I believe what started as an open ended conversation/idea turned into, no you're wrong, I'm right kind of nonsense. In most cases though, and especially since other classes don't have the healing potential a whm does, you should be healing, I don't think anyone would argue that. At the same time though, I've found myself, on multiple occasions, trying to kill something, whether it be a FATE or just a decent lvl'd mob, and it really takes me some time to put down. If it's a boss of a FATE, I tend to put Aero on it and spend some time just melee'ng cause I will run out of many with the 1,000 stones I will have to cast to try and kill the thing by myself.

Maybe you're solution is, always run with a party, why are you playing by yourself? Stop wanting to DPS if you're a healer, blah blah blah lol. I find it completely reasonable to want to do more damage as a healer. I won't argue, and I don't think anyone would, that dealing damage in a healing role should be your number 1 priority, but it's a valid wish nonetheless. And yea, for PVP and what not, you probably would focus more on healing. I just don't think it's that farfetched of an idea to want a healing class to deal a bit more damage so you don't have to spend so long trying to kill something if you're on your own. I don't PVP myself but there may be instances where your group could benefit from whm damage if maybe some dps is dead or you're kind of backed into a corner.

I'm somewhat surprised at the number of opposing replies, I think it's more a result of some fan boy stuff going on lol but that's just me.

Thanks for bumping this year old topic with a hearty triple post.

wtf is this doing in my forum topic