Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

Such as Thordan...

It could allow us to know before queing if someone is new or not.
It's really boring to have people joining when you ask for no bonus and are pretending to know the fight but actually don't.
It makes everyone waste time for nothing.
You'd say, we could just kick the bonus, but it's not easy to figure out who it is,and we don't want to endlessly make new pf (because of course, people will or give a chance to the bonus or just leave).

At least, with raid finder, we knew before if someone didn't meet the condition to enter the duty.

Ever time I tried raid finder it didn't work how where u having any luck

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Ever time I tried raid finder it didn't work how where u having any luck

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Hes talking about queing up as a full party but having the "clear"-option selected. If one person hasnt cleared it, it wouldnt let you queue up, making it easy for farm parties to make sure everyone in there got the clear. Kicking people and setting up a new PF is way more likely to happen if it happens before everyone loaded into the fight and sees the bonus-message.

But beside from actual full-groups: Even for solo-queues I'd like them back in RF... Sophiafarms with randoms in RF/DF that actually worked because you could select "clear" and 95% of people knew what they were doing... beautiful :')

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Ever time I tried raid finder it didn't work how where u having any luck

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Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

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That explains why it's hard for some to even get into some extremes and beginning raiding. That type of functionality needs to go imo. Use party finder for that type of exclusion. This has actually irritated me. Perhaps it's time for the raids to just be added to duty finder as well.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

That explains why it's hard for some to even get into some extremes and beginning raiding. That type of functionality needs to go imo. Use party finder for that type of exclusion. This has actually irritated me. Perhaps it's time for the raids to just be added to duty finder as well.

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All the raids are already in DF lol, there is not one left in RF

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

All the raids are already in DF lol, there is not one left in RF

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For now as they just shifted all the old content. That will change, however, and as stuff is added to stormblood people will be back to this type of situation.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

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It's use wasn't to discriminate it was to prevent people wasting time..

Before the raid finder was put in it was virtually impossible to queue an extreme primal and actually clear it..

The addition of raid finder increased clear rates significantly.. a lot of people got a lot of clears and farmed a lot of drops using raid finder.

Putting them back in duty finder undoes that.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It's use wasn't to discriminate it was to prevent people wasting time..

Before the raid finder was put in it was virtually impossible to queue an extreme primal and actually clear it..

The addition of raid finder increased clear rates significantly.. a lot of people got a lot of clears and farmed a lot of drops using raid finder.

Putting them back in duty finder undoes that.

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Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

That explains why it's hard for some to even get into some extremes and beginning raiding. That type of functionality needs to go imo. Use party finder for that type of exclusion. This has actually irritated me. Perhaps it's time for the raids to just be added to duty finder as well.

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1) Raids and Extremes are now in DF
2) RF gives you basically the option to queue as "I have cleared the content" or "I havent cleared the content" - as soon as you have cleared something, you can choose the option you prefer. And that is a good function - it actually allows people to do this fights, using the RF instead of queueing for it, waiting - and the ending up with 3 people who havent got the slightest idea about the encounter (and two of them dont speak english, so you cant even explain!). Why does DF has to be a paradise for people who want to wipe within the first phase of Nidhogg Extreme because they cant dodge dives?
3) Even when using PF you're still queueing up by DF/RF - if you put "No Bonus" into your PF group (something, that is absolutly legit, mind you)and you try to queue up for the content, selecting "cleared it!" it wont let you if one person still hasnt cleared it. It is more likely that this person will be replaced before you even get into the fight if you find out before. A sudden bonus-message appearing when you expected a farm-group often leads to people insta-leaving.

It isnt used to "discriminate" people who havent gotten the clear yet - it is used to ensure that people who know the fight and would like to get their loot can make sure that they get paired up with people who know what they're doing.
Everyone who says "Oh, but its so aweful that people can choose not to queue with those who havent cleared it yet!" seems to me like a person whos hoping for a carry.

You guys make it sound as if people who want to farm content are such monsters because they dont want to hold every newbies hand through savage personally...
I like helping people and I do that as often as I can - but sometimes I'd like to focus on my own progress. And that progress might not be to get to the add-phase in Zurvan EX but to actually kill him and get the weapons I need.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

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Using raid finder in Sophia ex. I managed to get about 50 clears quite a few weapons and couple of other bits. With a very high success rate. I think maybe 5 or 6 of the raid finder groups I joined disbanded..

Queueing seph ex or Thordan ex in duty finder. Before raid finder was added was pretty much a guaranteed waste of time.... thus no one queued it. Which is why they added rid finder in the first place

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

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Because people who want to help people learn will not click "cleared". People who want clears and farms don't have to deal with teaching, meaning toxicity from frustrated people is gone, and people who want to learn are paired either with others wanting to learn or others who want to teach.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Using raid finder in Sophia ex. I managed to get about 50 clears quite a few weapons and couple of other bits. With a very high success rate. I think maybe 5 or 6 of the raid finder groups I joined disbanded..

Queueing seph ex or Thordan ex in duty finder. Before raid finder was added was pretty much a guaranteed waste of time.... thus no one queued it. Which is why they added rid finder in the first place

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Oh I see you meant successful wins, not first clears. In any case, while I can obviously see how this benefits you, surely you can see that it punishes many others? Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not? Especially when everyone who has the clear and could thus help you is being given a direct incentive to not help you (i.e., a higher success rate by not allowing new players).

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Because people who want to help people learn will not click "cleared". People who want clears and farms don't have to deal with teaching, meaning toxicity from frustrated people is gone, and people who want to learn are paired either with others wanting to learn or others who want to teach.

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Does anyone actually do this? I don't use the raid finder, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen says no.

Also it's kind of alarming how casually people in this thread dismiss the unwashed masses. God forbid we should have to teach someone. Surely the party finder is a separate but equal method for those poor souls. :rolleyes:

Ask yourself: Why isn't everyone a mentor? Answer should come to you as: Not everyone wants to teach. RF gives an option to separate people out. God forbid people play the game without having to teach someone new *every time*.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Oh I see you meant successful wins, not first clears. In any case, while I can obviously see how this benefits you, surely you can see that it punishes many others? Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not? Especially when everyone who has the clear and could thus help you is being given a direct incentive to not help you (i.e., a higher success rate by not allowing new players).

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And having them in DF without the option to select "clear" punishes everyone who wants to actually farm and clear that content - not somehow get the kill. Forcing experienced people to help new ones get their clears isnt a good solution - it only leads to a lot of frustration and fighting between those who would like to farm that content and those who havent even read a guide or cant even understand the simplest mechanics.
Again: It is a good function. It allows people to focus on their own progression, if they wish to do so. I shouldnt have to help everyone, sometimes it has to be okay for me to focus on my own wishes. Sophia EX is really the best example - a kill there takes 10 minutes, not the 40 minutes I spend with a kill-party a week ago. But in that case it was even fine for me to spend 40 minutes, because I was in the mood to help out, teach and explain that fight. But when I'm not but still want that bird, that HAS to be fine too. No one should be expected to play this game for the sake of others.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Does anyone actually do this? I don't use the raid finder, but all the anecdotal evidence I've seen says no.

Also it's kind of alarming how casually people in this thread dismiss the unwashed masses. God forbid we should have to teach someone. Surely the party finder is a separate but equal method for those poor souls. :rolleyes:

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Yes, I do. When I feel like helping out and teaching, I will queue for my mentor roulette, for EX-primals, raids... I will join learn and "help to kill"-parties in PF when I see them and when I have the time on my hands.
But please explain to me why it makes me such a horrible person that once in a while I'd just like to get some smooth, quick runs in?
Why do I have to teach and explain the fight everytime I queue up for it again and again and again?
Why is the progress of every new person much more important than my own goals?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Oh I see you meant successful wins, not first clears. In any case, while I can obviously see how this benefits you, surely you can see that it punishes many others? Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not? Especially when everyone who has the clear and could thus help you is being given a direct incentive to not help you (i.e., a higher success rate by not allowing new players).

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There was nothing preventing people who had cleared from queuing "Duty Incomplete" to help out people looking for clears, if that's what they wished to do. Some did, by the way (plus it was essentially a guaranteed tome bonus). It's not like they took the ability to form PFs away, it just provided an easier avenue for people to get what they wanted.

I highly doubt there was a massive number of highly skilled players that just couldn't pull off a clear because of the RF not allowing them to queue with completers.

I don't understand why people don't just use party finder to make a learning party. Like, it's legitimately confusing to me.

I am notorious for attempting extreme fights at least a year after they come out. I'm not a hardcore raider and I mostly just don't have the patience for it. I hear tales of people 'never being able to find a learning party,' but whenever I have gone to get a learning party together, I've been able to do it. It used to take a couple to a few hours back when party finder was only server based, but now I can get a full learning party together in 45 minutes. And that's far more useful to someone looking to learn the fight, because the people joining that learning party know what they are signing up for. People can help walk you through things and explain, and you learn the fight, and it's great. People DO join these things, despite the naysayers.

No, you shouldn't join a farm party to get your first clear. Consider Thordan Ex. There's a mechanic in that turns into a wiped raid if one person doesn't know how to handle it. The bottom line is that people join farm parties for safe, quick clears because they are grinding for loot and that is not a fun process. So they want it to be quick and at least painful as possible. It's a matter of time. And like I said, my experience has been that setting up your own learning parties in party finders gets you those first wins quickly. Waiting for someone else to do it or be charitable with their time does not.

If I... you know, a ilevel 236 DRK, can get a learning party together two weeks ago and get my lanner by the end of the same weekend, I'm sure others can.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Yes, I do. When I feel like helping out and teaching, I will queue for my mentor roulette, for EX-primals, raids... I will join learn and "help to kill"-parties in PF when I see them and when I have the time on my hands.
But please explain to me why it makes me such a horrible person that once in a while I'd just like to get some smooth, quick runs in?

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I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

Ill just say this. it being this close to SB... and fact no more RF. i wont be DFing any bird parties regardless now in derp pf. ill do it if i know the ppl or some1 vouches for them

Most of the clears I've gotten in heavensward were through the party finder. It is used. However, let me tell you I have seen looking for first clear party sit all day on the weekend and no one join. However, the already cleared party goes on a rampage. party Finder alreadylet you set up raids. Having a raid finder that is in the same vein of the duty finder that allows exclusion seems redundant especially if they are trying to figure out why only 10ish percent of the population does this content.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

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it doesn't exclude anyone though. there's a practice option in the raid finder which you should use if you wantto practice.... just because that option is going to put you with people who also want to practice and not with people who will just carry you does not mean you are excluded in any way....

I got my first clears for Sophia zurvan and even nidhogg using the raid finders practice options,,, there is no way I was excluded from the content.

the only thing I was excluded from was farm parties. but as I hadn't cleared the fight I was in no way ready to farm it....

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm not calling you, or anyone here, a bad person. I'm just pointing out that you're asking for a feature which has only one function, which is to exclude people. Square Enix's policy here seems to be to allow for this exclusion while the content is new and particularly difficult, but to open it up to everyone after a time, but even that bone thrown to newbies seems to be too much to ask.

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Yes, because the content still requires you to do mechanics and know the fight - we're not that overgeared yet. And because some people still want to farm that content to get their birds or weapons or whatever. Again: The progression of newbies shouldnt be more important then the progression of anyone else. The feature is in place to seperate those who want fast, quick kills and those who are okay with learning and slow progression (or need to learn the fight and should therefore be okay with learning)
That "bone" you're throwing there - thats "my" time. (not actually mine, but you get the idea, I hope)

The most recent of these was released 7 months ago. The oldest was released in November 2015. We're going to be able to unsync this content in 2 months. There's no reason to put these back into Raid Finder. Anyone who was serious about tackling this content and getting their clears has had ample time to do so.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

it doesn't exclude anyone though.

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Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Again: The progression of newbies shouldnt be more important then the progression of anyone else.

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Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion..

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they might not be able to join a farm party which is clearly beyond there capabilities if they haven't cleared the content yet...

but it doenst exclude them from the content. they can still join practice parties or even parties seeking completion both of which would be better suited to that palyer than a farm party..

anyone expecting to join a farm party and get a clear instead of joining a clear party or a learning party basically just wants to get carried.. its this amentality that has lead to the whole "no bonus" culture, because players just aren't honest and don't want to join parties that actually fit there abilities and instead expect carries..

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Having to struggle with bad parties to get a clear is better than not even being allowed to try, is it not?

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I'm not sure I agree with this statement, personally.

In some sense, you're correct; if you remove emotions from the equation, struggling with a bad party provides a hands-on chance to learn mechanics, thereby improving your ability to clear the fight down the road. Over time, you'll improve enough to the point where you can get a win.

That said, emotions can't be removed from the equation. Random groups are composed of radically different players. Some want to learn, some don't. Some want to teach, some don't. When you throw a mixed group of these personalities at a fight, it often becomes stressful for reasons entirely apart from gameplay. People will quit, people will yell, people will be passive-aggressive, people will continue getting hit by the same damned move, frustrating everyone else. I've been through groups like this (I don't like to be the first to leave), and they SUCK. They make for a far more miserable experience than simply not bothering with the fight in the first place, to me at least.

It's for this reason that I support the Raid Finder, or any tool that enables some amount of segregation amongst the player base. Yes, there are downsides, but in my mind, they're necessary. And I say this as precisely the type of player this discrimination most harms (skilled, well-researched, but recently returned from a long break).

After all, at the end of the day, automated systems like the Duty Finder are around solely to speed up the previously-manual process of building a group, something featured in most every MMO. Manual control allowed people to discriminate in all sorts of ways if desired. New players still found opportunities and, what's more, the opportunities they found were much more likely to be accommodating. That beats joining a group that doesn't want you around any day of the week, in my opinion.

He isn't talking about farm parties or clear parties in the party finder. He is talking about the ability within the raid finder to only allow those that have cleared. Just FYI.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Were you doing content you had previously completed? Based on the various Raid Finder threads, it seems that its primary use was to discriminate against people who haven't yet cleared the content.

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It wasn't discrimatory. It was allowing the groups that wanted to farm be able to farm without having people who are looking for easy clears/carries to join in the group. I'm all for helping people clear, but it agitates me to see people sneak into a farm party and not even have a clear for the content. Especially when the PF description says "No Bonus." We're there to farm it, not help an individual understand the fight and clear it. The groups where we have tried to help the bonus person never resulted in a clear most of the time anyways, so all that time was just wasted. And it's extremely frustrating when all you want to do is farm some days.

I can't tell you how many PFs I ended up in where we couldn't queue into an Extreme because someone had a bonus and was trying to sneak in. Worst yet is that they didn't speak up when people asked "Who hasn't cleared? We'll help you, but we need to know who you are and how far you've gotten in the fight." If people want to learn content, make a PF for a LEARNING PARTY; I see them quite frequently when I'm browsing PF for things to do. I've joined a bunch of them just to help. Make a learning/clear party. Don't try to sneak your way into a farm; you'll just end up on people's blacklists.

It took me longer than it should have to get Thordan's and Sephirot's birds. Because so many people were joining farms without a clear, and expecting the rest of us to carry them. Even worse was some lied that they had cleared the fight on an alt. But you knew they were lying the minute you got in the duty because they died to just about everything.

Even after I have cleared, I still stick to learning groups for enough runs to understand the fight more. Because I sure as heck do not want to be carried by other players. Nidhogg Ex for example: I got my bird on my clear, and only cleared it one more time after that. I don't know at least 50% of the fight, or understand it at a level that is acceptable to me. I'm not going to join a farm and burden those who want loot and quick kills with my own inexperience. Sephirot Ex: never cleared as a healer before, always ran on either tank or bard. So I would look for more of a learning/clear to practice healing it rather than waltz into a farm party and be uncertain. Especially as a healer. (I did learn a bit more about healing SephEx, enough now to comfortably join farms.)

People in this thread keep saying "Make a PF for farm parties." Well, it goes both ways. Make a PF for learning parties. It's not like it's that hard. And you'll be paired with other like-minded people, and probably some mentors that want to teach. No one wants to teach mechanics in a farm.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

He isn't talking about farm parties or clear parties in the party finder. He is talking about the ability within the raid finder to only allow those that have cleared. Just FYI.

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Yes and that allows farms while using the RF
and it allows farm parties to make sure that everyone has the clear before queueing up for the content. If one person in the group doesnt has the clear, but you select that option, the game wont let you queue up. If that happens you can remove the bonus-person before getting into the content, making it more likely for the rest of the group to stick around.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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Then the majority should work together to accomplish their goals. In the long run, that will feel a lot better than joining a farm party and be carried knowing that they contributed very little to the overall success of the party.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)
2) Now that we have established that a good amount of clearless people might not even care for the clear, lets rethink "majority should be most important" - that sounds appealingly true at first, but is it? I say: Its not. Most often those people who are raiding/doing ex-primals are those who are really invested into the game, might have been for years and hopefully for SE will continue to stay loyal to the game. Giving reasons to farm those fights (for example the mounts - and even more so with HW now: Kill the primal 99 times, get the mount) almost screams "Farm me!" To keep this playerbase, who is actually intrested in that, happy by giving them the means to make farming easier (RF-clear-option) is a pretty good move by SE
3) You're focussed on the benefits of the newbies - but do they really benefit from getting paird up with impatient people who want a fast clear and will get upset at them because they're failing easy mechanics? No, they dont benefit from that. By seperating those people from those who are new (and those who are willing to teach/take it slower) the toxic behaviour in those fights gets reduced

Also to clear this up: Is your issue that less people are queueing for the content with RF (because you've got two queues) or is your issue that people who havent cleared it ar less likely to be lumped together with those who have?
Because if its the later it sounds a lot like "It is more difficult for newbies to get carried in DF" and not "Its more difficult for them to see the fight".
Expecting a carry and being upset when that doesnt happen anymore... phew...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)

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I'm only countering this because this is something that irritates me.

You see farm parties more because so few people will join a learning party. I still have yet to clear extremes because learning parties never happen. I have even bothered to make one myself, only to sit around for 40 minutes before closing it because nobody joined it. My FC was trying to do Seph, even when it wasn't the newest one, and we couldn't do it because we could not get 8 people to come along in for a learning party.

That's part of Talraen's point. It's so much of a hassle to even try to get a learning party going that some people who want to do the content end up not doing it. I think as a middle ground though, we should be able to tell quickly who the new person is when the message pops up. It is rude to join a farm as someone who never did it, at least not without permission. That way you don't have to worry about trying to figure out who, but it'll make it easier for those who still haven't cleared.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)
2) Now that we have established that a good amount of clearless people might not even care for the clear, lets rethink "majority should be most important" - that sounds appealingly true at first, but is it? I say: Its not. Most often those people who are raiding/doing ex-primals are those who are really invested into the game, might have been for years and hopefully for SE will continue to stay loyal to the game. Giving reasons to farm those fights (for example the mounts - and even more so with HW now: Kill the primal 99 times, get the mount) almost screams "Farm me!" To keep this playerbase, who is actually intrested in that, happy by giving them the means to make farming easier (RF-clear-option) is a pretty good move by SE
3) You're focussed on the benefits of the newbies - but do they really benefit from getting paird up with impatient people who want a fast clear and will get upset at them because they're failing easy mechanics? No, they dont benefit from that. By seperating those people from those who are new (and those who are willing to teach/take it slower) the toxic behaviour in those fights gets reduced

Also to clear this up: Is your issue that less people are queueing for the content with RF (because you've got two queues) or is your issue that people who havent cleared it ar less likely to be lumped together with those who have?
Because if its the later it sounds a lot like "It is more difficult for newbies to get carried in DF" and not "Its more difficult for them to see the fight".
Expecting a carry and being upset when that doesnt happen anymore... phew...

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1.) Is a fair point
2.) Consider why Square Enix adds mounts to make old content farm-friendly. They aren't doing this to keep old players loyal, they're doing it to keep people running the content so new people can get clears! I think your argument here is exactly backwards.
3.) As I said elsewhere, it sucks to be biased against when you join a party, but at least you have a chance of getting the clear when you do that. You don't have any chance to clear with a party that you can't join. So yes, this is a net benefit to a player without a clear, even if it's a questionable one.

My issue is that people are upset that they lost the option to exclude players. I have never used the raid finder, nor have I used the duty finder for content that was ever in the raid finder, pretty much because of the attitudes espoused in this thread. The toxicity isn't being avoided, it's just being couched in different terms. Empathy is in short supply.

To be perfectly honest, I 100% understand your point of view. But I also understand why nobility wouldn't want to associate with peasants; that doesn't mean I support feudalism.

Instead of having a raid finder, they could just add more options to the DF.

*Only match with players who have cleared the duty.

and the opposite

*Only match with one or more first-time players.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

snip

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I fully understand your point - and even though I'm often open to help and teach, I still have to ask (like, in general, not you personal): Is it fair that those who have the desire and skill to farm content are thrown back at square one each time they attemtept to do it in DF?
I've done that back for Ramuh EX, because I wanted that pony to bad - it was not fun. Not fun at all. I got maybe 4 or 5 clears in DF - and with that about... 30 people their clears, I'd say? I stopped when my friends got a bit worried about my sanity - when we farmed it again eventually they'd let me have the first pony to prevent me from going back into DF.
With RF-clear and Sophia however they gladly joined me and we had good, proper farmruns.

Maybe I'm super-selfish here, but I dont want to constantly sacrifice my time and the fun I have with this game and various contents because I end up at square one each time I'd like to do the content but dont want to comitt to a farm-party.
SEs goal should be to make their game the most pleasent experience possible for everyone - and RF is adding to that, by giving us a CHOICE.

(Also... I thought Balmung had such a high population? It surprises me that you couldnt get a party together...)

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Originally Posted by Talraen

To be perfectly honest, I 100% understand your point of view. But I also understand why nobility wouldn't want to associate with peasants; that doesn't mean I support feudalism.

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On a side note, you seem pretty obsessed with calling newbies peasants and unwashed masses...

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing, either. This is why games like Overwatch have ranked matchmaking--it sucks for a newbie to get paired with someone who plays nonstop. It sucks for someone who wants to farm something to know that every DF that pops comes with the possibility of someone hopping in without even watching the vid and expecting the fight to be easy enough to do.

If a player doesn't want to teach they shouldn't be forced to, and yet without raid finder the chances are high that they'll have to. A fight that should take ten minutes suddenly takes up to 90 and what time the player had to farm is now up, and so is the free time the player set aside to farm. So they'll go instead to party finder and pray nobody sneaks in hoping for a carry, and DF will be even more dead than RF Uncleared is, meaning people hoping to just experience the fight have even less chance of doing so.

It seems to me OP just wants a better way to figure out who is ninjaing into PF farm parties when they have no clear. It just so happens that RF did that as a side effect when you attempted to queue. There was another thread about a similar topic recently.

Right now I guess your options are to just throw darts or everyone just leaves when no one fesses up if wipes occur.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

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Within 5 hours of the extreme coming out, it's only be farm parties up. And I personally don't end up doing the extremes early in the patch because I'm busy with other things, so by the time I want to do it, it's already too late.

Maybe with the change I mentioned (Where you can tell who's the new member,) it'd help farm parties with that issue, while still letting people go in DF queue without some long wait. It'd help both sides in this.

we don't have this problem in JP datacentre. i think NA and EU players just need to be honest and courteous instead of thinking of themselves first (it goes both ways). i was able to farm all my birds and get the phoenix mount via RF completed queue because no one queues completion if they didn't know the fight (and almost no one pays for clears there so you wont get people who got carried and sneaks into the completed queue) -> it's all about respecting other people.

if you want to try and clear primal ex and savage, create a "looking for help/learning" cross world pf (being very specific helps like "learning from phase1", "adds phase onward", learning from "1st void phase, looking to clear hopefully") -> it does not fill up? grab your LS and FC friends to come with you. no LS and FC friends who want to help? it's time to socialise - this is an MMORPG after all and social aspect is one of the big things in Multiplayer games. find a helping_you_content LS -> find a friendly raiding FC who wish to help you learn -> etc.etc. but you also have to carry your own weight and not put burden on others. this is why we have mentors and novices because everyone is new at one point.

it's the same for people who want to farm. they have a network of LS or FC people (and those from other FCs) and friendslists who they meet regularly in farms because they already did the above and they actually took the time to try and learn. because not everyone starts off in "farm status" right away everyone is new at one point. they will create PF and they expect like minded people and people of the same progression to join, if they want to help they will join the above learning and clearing pts, and will likely to join if they know how much time or effort they'd spend teaching if the PF was specific to what phase is being practised on.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion.

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

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Personally I think people trying to practice or get first clear should be using PF, just like how in the JP data centers most people use the "simpler" (as in not being able to choose who you'll be grouped, how far they've progressed in the fight) DF queue for farms, because farm parties need much less communication than practice parties or aim to clear parties. You just use macro to outline the strategy, people call out their spread positions, priorities etc, that's it. Everyone knows the fight. This works even when there's a language barrier between the Japanese and English speakers in JP servers, as long as we use google translate to get rough understanding on the macro.

When we're talking about practice and aim to clear parties, there are a lot more variables involved. Are you practicing for the early phases? Or are you trying to clear because you've practiced everything up to the last phase of the fight? Are you going in blind, not watching/reading any guide? Are you trying a non-standard strategy? You have absolutely no control in DF, unlike PF where you can specify if you're practicing certain parts, using different strategies, doing blind runs for challenge etc. You can't just mix everyone aiming for different goals like that together and hope they'll somehow work it out and clear the fight.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I have never used the raid finder, nor have I used the duty finder for content that was ever in the raid finder, pretty much because of the attitudes espoused in this thread. The toxicity isn't being avoided, it's just being couched in different terms. Empathy is in short supply.

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This probably explains why you're thinking this way. For the harder contents in this game, helping new players doesn't mean clearing in 30 minutes instead of 15 minutes. It may mean NOT clearing at all in 90 minutes. Some of these fights aren't so simple/easy that you can learn the whole thing in 60-90 minutes, so if you want to farm the content, having even one person new to the fight in your group can completely make it impossible to clear. It's not that people don't want to help others learn, but sometimes helping others learn means not clearing the fight.