Concept: Heavy Machinist Tank

http://i.imgur.com/VcraaV4.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/eOs6oYK.jpg?8

http://i.imgur.com/sGbRKXa.jpg?1

DeviantArt Link: http://magicdragonmage.deviantart.co...0%3A1491180189

would really like it if i could get some feedback particularly on the artwork and detail. i did not know how to exactly capture the FFXIV theme, but i tried my best while also adding a Steampunk theme. i think it fits well with the class.

anyway, just open to any suggestion as to what to add before i do some digital art.

Popular Subjects so far:

Q: "Minigun = ranged DPS?"

A: i know that when you see a giant mini-gun, you think "long range, high damage DPS".

this is not the case. the classe's basic attacks would have mid-range suppression-based effects with average DPS a tank would normally have. effects such as "slow" and "heavy" upon an enemy while the player is shooting will ensure that the class will keep a fair distance from agro-enemies while doing so.

It's a neat piece of artwork, but my brain is breaking while I try to figure out how it would work mechanically. The minigun suggests high damage output, but I don't see how easily that could be balanced with the need to mitigate incoming damage.

I'm also shuddering at the parts list that would be needed for a BSM to make those weapons. MCH weapons are already extremely complicated.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

-good question-

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thats when things get creative. the gatling gun would have average damage, but also place suppression-based status upon enemies.

for example, one basic attack will empty a magazine upon a target and place a "slow" or "heavy" effect on it. this attack will last for short period of time, so the player is not required to hold down the ability to fire. just select it and the attack automatically fires the entire magazine.

players can interrupt this attack by selecting a reload ability, which resets any previous weapon-based ability. the ability will also work like a combo ability only after the entire magazine is depleted, which will result in a much faster reload animation. once a target is eliminated, the ability will automatically activate and the reload animation will be much faster.

I just don't understand how the minigun, in the hands of a tank of all roles, isn't going to be knocked aside from even the most mild attacks or weight put against it. It's clearly too large to be handled manageably in CQB. It makes about as much sense as a parry-tank running on a toothpick (or even a rapier, given the size of boss weapons).

I also have to ask, why a tank at all, especially given that XIV's latency prevents most melee from reliably attacking moving targets? Why put this kind of armor or role on a ranged heavy weaponry class?

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

How is that statement in any way any kind of reason to prevent such a job in that role? BRD/MCH have no problems hitting targets while moving when their casting stance isn't on, this job would be no different albeit likely have a reduce ranged in comparison (10-15y range perhaps).

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"Melee," I said. As a tank, you position for melee, yet the only advantage for being a ranged tank is to reduce auto-attack damage intervals taken over a given fight which can only be done by kiting, which in turn makes it difficult for melee to hit the targets at all.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Welcome to pretty much every animation in the entire game then.

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Hence the "yet more"...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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so to explain, the weapon DOES NOT work as you would expect it to.

i understand that when you see a minigun, you think high dps long range weapon capable of mowing down enemies like you see in movies or other games.

that is not the case. please refer to the second post already answering this question.

basically, it would have average DPS with suppression-based mechanics that slow down and enemies. as for the range, it would be tough to code, but im thinking about bullet damage drop and accuracy drop depending on how far the enemy is.

i was also thinking of adding push-back and stun mechanics so that even mid range would makes sense. probably in the form of concussion grenades, flash-bangs and heavy rounds to force back enemies.

so i did not know that BB code was available on this forum, so there you have it. you are no longer required to visit the link.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

so to explain, the weapon DOES NOT work as you would expect it to.

i understand that when you see a minigun, you think high dps long range weapon capable of mowing down enemies like you see in movies or other games.

that is not the case. please refer to the second post already answering this question.

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I never said it was, nor did I imply that I felt it niched as a DPS due to its damage rate. I referred only to its obvious weight and unweildiness. Your second post only answers a small part of my questions, insofar as this class having on demand Heavy, which can mitigate some of the melee's concerns for one particular focus target at a time. However, I felt those questions were enough for the time being. As I understand it, your class uses channeled, effect-sustaining attacks that produce reduce recast times upon ending (not triggering) that are reduced if the channel is completed. However, for that duration one is locked to a single target. How long are these channels? Will this negatively affect target-rotating for appropriately spreading enmity, or will that whole function be blanketed instead by AoE usage, such as through your proposed grenades?

I'm very intrigued with this idea. Sounds like it will be fun to play if executed correctly. Animations should have various types of cannon attacks etc. Maybe this tank can be a specialist in AOEs. We'll call it...WAR MACHINE.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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in that case, im open to any suggestions.

AOE sounds great along with the concept in the second post.

i do understand that target rotation would be difficult. which is why i think it would be smart to add a ceasefire ability along with a reload ability. this would pause the active timer of the last used primary-weapon-based ability (basic fire) so that the player may rotate targets and continue the timer later.

i would not be so concerned for the shape and weight of the weapon itself. i trust in the animators to find a way around its details.

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Originally Posted by rxnin

Maybe this tank can be a specialist in AOEs. We'll call it...WAR MACHINE.

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If XIV thus far is anything to go by, any specialist will always be taken for certain fights and banned from the rest, unless gimmicks specifically force its viability (as with the LB gauge).

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

i would not be so concerned for the shape and weight of the weapon itself. i trust in the animators to find a way around its details.

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It's not that I distrust the animators to find ways around the details. It's that I trust that they will (disregard all obvious physics issues in favor of nice, quick, responsive animations and zero interruption while the minigun would have been battered about), leading to yet more unrealistic animations and weapon usage.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

in that case, im open to any suggestions.

i do understand that target rotation would be difficult. which is why i think it would be smart to add a ceasefire ability along with a reload ability. this would pause the active timer of the last used primary-weapon-based ability (basic fire) so that the player may rotate targets and continue the timer later.

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Thus far we have many, many weaponskills that are in appearance multi-striking while in actuality being mere single strikes with added application delay. Alternatively, you could just use mobile cast times in the form of channeling, striking many times over the duration where all share the same crit calculation and simply divide the snapshot value over each hit as to reduce cost. In either case, though, unless your channel times are to exceed the GCD, I don't see a reason not to use the typical GCD. By using the GCD, you'd have the exact same freedom of rotation as others (physical in the first case, casters in the second), and the exact same weave opportunities. I'm not saying that should be the goal, but unless you have some reason to compromise those (e.g. it doesn't make sense to be able to toss a grenade while still channeling fire from the mini-gun).

In my opinion, the class would work far better in a game that isn't target-locked, allows for projectile trajectory, and has a whole lot better netcode and/or server proximity. As far as jobs go that would be obviously cheated by issues in execution, designs like these seem among the most vulnerable. Either the benefits and distinctions one would intuitively assume the class would possess are instead just skins for homogenized combat, or it faces additional issues that will kill the job for most of its players.

:: That's true of most of my own job designs as well—which is why most of my posting involves smashing my head against the undermechanical limitations wall of the game in the hopes that my suggestions resound enough to be heard by the workers opposite or dent it enough to leave some thin space for something worth building upon—but short of such improvements, we work between very tight walls when trying to come up with something meaningfully new. I'm sorry if I've come off hypercritical. I just fear that yours is particularly new and refreshing, and thereby particularly dependent on certain reforms not to be particularly screwed. For these reasons I'd recommend trying on for size each of the norms, or what the job would be if homogenized and how well you can still convey its feel in those confines. Where it most limits you, consider then what mechanics would re-allow for your job as you envisioned it. Sadly, those parts will be as much the task as the job design itself.

As much as a "gun" based tank would be for this game anytime I think about it I just fuse PLD with MCH in my mind, Bacily (shield & handgum) with no turret's or Gauss stance (thou it could be its "DPS" stance respecivly) & that its "tank stance" added an "energy blade" to the gun (would be the same skill in eather stance just diff animation per stance with diff abilities)

Idea of 2 classes fused came from the fact that I saw a clearly CNJ Y'stola use the dome move of AST... just like o.O wait you used what, I mean sure you're trained in magic by ppl of the country who made AST but you're using a CNJ weapon... damn it why can't I do that with 2 classes (hence PLD/MCH fusion was born in my mind, this help little in giving sujestion on you're idea OP srry)

AS for sujestions on OP's class idea maybe Magitek Barrior bit's when in "Tank stance" to block arrgo'd mobs? like mini-protect's that float around avi but snap to attack side if hit (min 4, 1 per side) would allow use of semi-flashy gun animation without it being smacked about like a ragdoll

Ultimately the game will have us enter Garlean homeland right? Would it be so crazy for a gun based tank, perhaps something so simple as a gunblade (as corny and stupid in my opinion I've never liked the idea) job to be taught to the WoL?

When thinking about it. The gunblade is not anecessarily effective at long range but excels in close ranged bursts.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I just don't understand how the minigun, in the hands of a tank of all roles, isn't going to be knocked aside from even the most mild attacks or weight put against it. It's clearly too large to be handled manageably in CQB. It makes about as much sense as a parry-tank running on a toothpick (or even a rapier, given the size of boss weapons).

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Aside from ignoring the fact this is a fantasy game, you seem to be oblivious to the existence of Dark Knight in this game. Large unwieldly weapons? There are DRK swords in the game that would weigh over 600lbs (272kg). Those swords wouldn't even be able to be carried around by normal people, let alone swung at the speeds they are. A minigun of that size would be comparitively lighter, with other examples in media/games, such as the Heavy's "Sasha" stated to weigh 231 lbs (105kg). On top of the Heavy in the role of a tank as well in it's respective game gives it a prime example of a tanky archetype in that style (i.e. using a big gatling gun).
Countless video games have a Heavy Gunner type enemy/archetype that almost always takes the form of a very heavy armored juggernaut. There are even MMO's that have the same archetype, such as SWTOR's Trooper class, who did just fine fighting in close quarters with their big guns against people with lightsabers.

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I also have to ask, why a tank at all, especially given that XIV's latency prevents most melee from reliably attacking moving targets? Why put this kind of armor or role on a ranged heavy weaponry class?

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How is that statement in any way any kind of reason to prevent such a job in that role? BRD/MCH have no problems hitting targets while moving when their casting stance isn't on, this job would be no different albeit likely have a reduce ranged in comparison (10-15y range perhaps).

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leading to yet more unrealistic animations and weapon usage.

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Welcome to pretty much every animation in the entire game then. BRD jumping in the air, doing a backflip while raining down arrows? So realistic! How about MNK's shoulder tackle, where they cover 20yards in half a second, accelerating to speeds upwards of 80 mph instantly.

I think your drawing and idea is awesome. I love thinking outside of the box. I feel that a new tank should be wildly different because you've got two with swords and one with an axe; any more slashing type tanks would be so boring and redundant.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

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that was a major part in my mindset when creating this concept.

the thing about creating tanks now a days in FFXIV is that its hard to be original, especially if the gameplay is limited to close range melee and large two-handed weapons (and i do count paladins and gladiators for their shields).

sure, it would be easy to make a "club/warhammer wielding tank" but how can the devs create mechanics that would be completely different from Warrior or Darkknight and make it stand out? why not just give the WAR blunt based weapons of the same stats?

the only two concepts that i feel would be original is this one and a duel-wielding "barbarian".

basically, the devs options are limited in terms of originality. that is one major reason why i believe Stormblood does not feature tanks and the SAM was not a tank class due to the mechanics and animation being too similar to Darkknight (why not just give the Darkknight samurai-themed gear instead of spending long development time creating an entirely different class?).

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

(why not just give the Darkknight samurai-themed gear instead of spending long development time creating an entirely different class?).

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with that said, i do hope they make samurai-themed gear for the Darkknight in order to satisfy players that really wanted the Samurai to be a tank. i feel as if this is the best solution.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

with that said, i do hope they make samurai-themed gear for the Darkknight in order to satisfy players that really wanted the Samurai to be a tank. i feel as if this is the best solution.

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With the expansion so largely taking place in the East, hopefully we'll see some decent samurai-like outfits (in the armorered Samurai sense of the job) for most mail/plate jobs. Definitely looking forward to it.

Edit: Just need them not to give great katanas exclusively to Samurai after that...

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

It's a neat piece of artwork, but my brain is breaking while I try to figure out how it would work mechanically. The minigun suggests high damage output, but I don't see how easily that could be balanced with the need to mitigate incoming damage.

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The picture is basically the Engineer - a ranged tank class from Wildstar. Even has more or less that weapon. Only thing missing is the optional pets Engineers can summon to do side DPS or off-tanking (they can 'slot in' a skill that gives them a pet similar to the Titan-Egi of a summoner, only it is a 'gun turret on spider legs').

How it works is basically just a high aggro hand held cannon, with the engineer wearing heavy armor, able to put up various shields and field effects. You can either use your 'tank bot' to position mobs, or let them approach you. I actually used a build with no bot, letting me slot more mitigation skills instead (In Wildstar you can slot only a few skills on your action bar, 8 if I remember right, but as you level you end up with a few dozen of them - so everybody ended up basically playing very differently even on the same classes, except for the people who just followed guides). It was a particularly good tanking class against ranged mobs like casters and gunners because it had a lot less need to 'gap close' compared to the game's two melee tanks.

The concept isn't new, just not in FFXIV.

Just think of a tank that could go into the middle of a room that had mages standing around the edges in a semi-circle... and not have to panic about figuring out how to group them up - just keep them facing your general front.
(The other tanks they had were a warrior that played a lot like FFXIV's warrior, only with a sword instead of axe, and a stealth tank called the 'stalker' - basically imagine if the ninja class was a tank, able to pop in and out of stealth constantly (up to almost every other GCD), and used wolverine claws). It was actually the stealth tank that ended up feeling the most unique... tanking at range seemed 'weird' until you did it a few times then you just started feeling like a 'generic MMO tank' most of the time... just at range...

Of course... Wildstar is a Science Fiction / Fantasy blend game. You start out in a spaceship... but you have magic. 'Engineer', as other people have pointed out - doesn't fit the genre here.

That said... if you took the MCH Job, swapped the guns for a single two-hander gun, removed about half of it's DPS skills and replaced them with the damage reduction abilities of the PLD and the AoE field of the DRK, but kept the turrets as an option to use INSTEAD of some armor ability (like: Defiance stance, Gunner Stance, or Turret Stance) - then gave it the armor of the PLD, Warrior, DRK... you would have the Engineer... It kinda played like that... :)

added a new and more detailed image of the fan art.

hope you like it!

For the most part I like your concept, as for feedback, I have some points you could maybe think about? I realise that you are very attached to the mini-gun with suppression fire, so I'd suggest putting the mini-gun on a turret that walks away and burrow itself into the ground. Then you could maybe have a pile-driver (with a riot shield attached?) as a close- to mid-range weapon to attack with blunt/pierce damage and quakes (for aggro?). When looking at the amount of protection the concept have, I can't help but think of explosives (which the shield on the pile-driver could protect you from as well). For AOE I'd suggest mines with fire/ice/acid/slime/electricity to damage/dot/slow. Gob hand-grenades to stun and blind? Fly up and do short-duration aerial bombing with gob-Illuminati-engineer-like wings, then use pile-driver when landing for extra damage? In my opinion part of a tanks job is to keep aggro on themselves and keep the enemies in place so that healers and melee dps don't have to run around too much. One could not do that, but it wouldn't be very fun for them.

Sorry if none of these suggestion was any welcome or helpful.

PS, maybe tangentially on-topic for help on mini-gun design: http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Rock_Eater

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Originally Posted by manamoppet

PS, maybe tangentially on-topic for help on mini-gun design: http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Rock_Eater

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i think something like a mortar as an alternative weapon would be a fantastic idea. perhaps even making mortars, or explosion-based weapons, a secondary off hand tool for the class.

it could either work like a turret placement, or perhaps a quickly drawn weapon.

either way, it sounds like a great idea.

added another concept image:

http://i.imgur.com/sGbRKXa.jpg?1

this one features a secondary weapon for the Heavy Machinist concept. this particular weapon is an artillery mortar that can be placed down, or converted into a weapon that can be quickly drawn and fired upon an enemy.

other forms of utility may include what kind of ammunition you want the mortar to fire, such as napalm, gas, concussion blasts, agro-flares, or simply explosive rounds. in its sentry mode, the mortar will fire automatically, and the different types of ammunition may affect the fire rate: for example, Napalm may cause less fire rate than regular explosive ammunition or flares.

you may set the mortar to target a specific enemy, or if there is no enemy tagged, simply the enemy you are attacking.