Trend: Kicked for PvPing in PvP

As of late, I have noticed this new Garo trend of openly discouraging PvP to prioritize hitting Ice. That's all well and good for those who do not wish to PvP or are playing strategically to avoid feeding a premade, etc...but lately it's been taking a drastic turn from openly discouraging PvP to actually removing those who ARE pvping.

For example, this has happened to me 4x thus far in 24m FL. I queue solo about 80% and Ill be with my group around the ice, gaining battle fever while they score points hitting Ice. Im not feeding or going off on my own, I'm just simply stopping the opposing team from scoring on Ice. Ill see a "oh he's a feeder, not doing objective, etc" and then Im kicked...with Battle Fever.

I understand that Garo temporarily revitalized PvP queues, but at what cost? Shatter only compounds the issue by making PvP totally irrelevant a majority of the time.

Am I the only person experiencing this?

I mean, the goal of Shatter is to kill the ice, and to do enough PVP to prevent the other team from killing it.

If you're not killing the ice because you're too busy fighting the enemy team in the middle, you're going to lose. Focus on the objective. If you want to PVP teamfight more, queue for Seal Rock.

Also, I kind of doubt your story.

Statistically, a random player who hits ice contributes much more to victory than a player who kills. 1 kill is 5 points, and you gain around 1 point per second by hitting ice. Not your fault, it's just the way SE makes their PvP, by making PvE elements more important. Join our PvP discord and do matches with premade parties, we usually always ignore ice and win most of the times still.

I think it's a good strategy for some people to do non-ice objectives. The other team will get less ice points if they have to worry about the threat of losing their base and their people getting killed at spawn.

If kicks happen often for play style differences, I think that's more a problem with the players on that datacenter.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I mean, the goal of Shatter is to kill the ice, and to do enough PVP to prevent the other team from killing it.

If you're not killing the ice because you're too busy fighting the enemy team in the middle, you're going to lose. Focus on the objective. If you want to PVP teamfight more, queue for Seal Rock.

Also, I kind of doubt your story.

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1. What makes you doubt my story?
2. The goal of Shatter is not to attack Ice. The goal is to collect data. Hitting ice is one method to collect data. There are three methods currently to gain data to win. I've won entire matches were my team did not touch Ice at all.
3. Queue for Seal Rock?Now I know you're just trolling.

Ok, I have to admit i'm sick of seeing this. If you play Shatter with me you'll actually be PvP'ing. Even as a WAR that can do dmg, I can do far more "damage" to the other team by keeping them from hitting the ice. If you see a blm or mch with high/fever on the other team, do you think a tank is going to do more dmg than them, or would I be better off distracting the other teams main dps to keep them from dmging the ice/crystals etc.

It's about more than just kills. Although i'm not going to give away too much of my strategies in Shatter, if you control mid and farm kills you can win. It's the same as Seal Rock and overcoming the RNG everyone complains about.

If you don't know, come PvP with me ;)

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

1. What makes you doubt my story?

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That it wasn't a mentor?

Never seen anyone booted from Shatter for PVPing, only seen people booted for afking pretending to "guard" base. Even those small bands of YOLOers that do nothing but chase dual ASTs all the way back to their base and die horribly don't get kicked, at worst yelled at in alliance chat.

Well im running around doing PvP with my warrior all the time. I dont get kicked or questioned.... atleast until now.

Got kicked end of match for guarding a small ice that was almost dead killed like 5 people going after it one at a time off on my own, would have won the game for the other team had I finished it off. Buying time for my team who were alone at a big ice uncontested, that would have won it for them if they broke it before any other ice broke. Another match got my rear end kicked up and down the map but stayed with the group got last place and 3 coms. Logic does not apply to mob content strategy.

ps: I'm one of those garo pvpers you seem to not like, at least you know I will not continue participating after I've collected all the shineys I wanted.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

ps: I'm one of those garo pvpers you seem to not like, at least you know I will not continue participating after I've collected all the shineys I wanted.

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I don't think veteran pvpers have any issues Garo people per se, it's the Garos that literally started pvping this patch for the first coming into FL with the entitled mentality that everyone who has been pvping for years, suffering with horrendous queues, must now suddenly drop what they love doing (pvping) and start hugging ice to win them their mounts.

They'll get their mounts and never look back at pvp while the rest of us are still here. So no, I don't care about getting random Garos their mounts, just like they don't care about PvP.

In 24 man ice is way more important then kills. It also it sounds like you have a "different play style" then most. Also multiple kicks implies you complain when people ask you to change and have a rep. I have never seen you, but people who have a rep get booted as soon as seeing doing their own thing.

PvP = player vs player, nowhere in there is the word kill. You as a player are supposed to be completing your objective before the enemy team does. In shatter, killing enemies has very little impact on this goal. A kill loses the enemy team 5 points and gains your team 5 points, killing a big ice gains your team 300 points. If there is one enemy attacking a small ice, sure, kill them, the points they gained alone on that ice will be outweighed by the points they lost by you killing them, but on a big ice you're better off contributing towards that 300 points to get as much of it away from the enemy teams as you can.

If you want a killing fest, go and play slaughter, I know it's 50 capped and that sucks, but if kills is all you want that's where you go, not shatter.

Large Ice: 300 points available
Small Ice: 70 points available


Assuming 50 active combatants (DPS):
Large Ice translates into roughly 6 points per combatant
Small Ice translates into roughly 1.4 points per combatant (I use the term roughly because ice is magic resistant and some DPS may not contribute as much due to stuns, sleeps or not getting max DPS from their rotations)

Killing an enemy player: +5 points for your team, -5 points for the enemy team

At large ice, killing 1 enemy player effectively gives your team +10 points over the team in which your PvPer defeated their PvEer and +5 points over the other team.
At small ice, when a large group is present your +5 points for a kill is 2-3 times more points than you could have gotten from the small ice; however 50 DPS per small ice is rare and your contribution may be more effective by destroying the ice.

So, killing an enemy player at the large ice is doubly effective against the team that lost a player and just slightly less than your contribution against the other team.

Imagine though if your entire team (appx 16 DPS, not including healers - assuming you have healers) kills one other team (24 players - assuming your DPS is good enough to do so):

+5 points per kill for your team, -5 points for the enemy team

effective points for NOT DPSing the large ice: 120 points, points for killing the large ice: 100, you're already 90 points ahead of the team you focused down (see below)

the team you killed lost 120 points, so their net gain for the ice is +30 points (because your team didn't DPS the ice, the distribution is 50/50 for 150 points)

The third team however has gained +150 points and they have an advantage over you of +30 points.

those +30 points will require that you kill 6 of their members to break even. given that you killed 24 other players; it's likely that at least 6 of your team members now have fever giving them an increased DPS output and making subsequent skirmishes more favorable for your team.

Even splitting your DPS to physical -> ice, magical -> players will result in an advantage for your team by the end of the match due to point gain, enemy point reduction and your increased DPS in the form of fevers and highs.

So when you see someone trying to kill a member of an opposing team while you're at the ice; it will give your team an advantage for you to help out.

The game is not won on the first 2 ice or by ice or kills alone.

Garo people: support those people getting fevers and highs, their contribution is more than double that of those people destroying ice because not only did they gain your team 5 points for a kill, they also took away 5 points from another team and when they get fever or high their DPS output increases substantially.

Veteran PVPers (and Garo people): small ice gives the largest ROI in terms of DPS/TIME:POINTS unless a small number of players from another team is at the small ice, in which case kills give the largest ROI both in reducing points from the other team, reducing damage done by the other team to the ice and gaining an easy +5 per kill

In the end, this mode is like any other mode. Various strategies work and you need to be able to adapt on the fly to how your team is performing and what the other teams are doing.

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Originally Posted by Llus

info.

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What you don't take into account is the three team variable. If a team kills to many of one team and score slides out of window of victory. "lets kill them and pad are Hand achievements." So killing to many is an extremely bad strategy, unless you know how awesome your pug is.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

What you don't take into account is the three team variable. If a team kills to many of one team and score slides out of window of victory. "lets kill them and pad are Hand achievements." So killing to many is an extremely bad strategy, unless you know how awesome your pug is.

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Reread, I did include the third team.


But let's assume that the 3rd team did 100% of the damage to the large ice while you were killing the other team. That effectively means the 3rd team is up on you by 180 (since they got 300 points for the ice, you got 120 points for destroying the 2nd team and the 2nd team is at 0 points because they can't have negative points). So at the next ice, you kill the 3rd team instead of the 2nd team and again assume the 2nd team got all the points from the ice. Now you've reduced the 3rd team's points from the first 2 large ices to 180 while your team is now at 240 and the 2nd team is at 300. However, at this point your team should have 6+ players with fevers effectively giving you an insurmountable DPS advantage.

This does assume DPS know their PVP rotations, healers know how to stay alive and keep other players alive, but the point is that people that PvP in these casual PvP modes are actively contributing as much or MORE than those that are practicing their rotations on a striking dummy and should be given assistance to secure kills and get their fevers and highs just as those that want to DPS ice should be given assistance.

Would never Kick someone PVPing, even thou Shatter is more PVE where you can hit other players by incident.

But some good people killing off enemy players can disrupt the enemy team enough to make the rest do their points on ice safe.

You cant calculate that... you have to take in account the Mana the healer looses for a rez, or the time the player looses by getting rezzed/rezzing himself and get back from base to combat...
Weakness debuff... you can easyily kill him off 2nd time... double weakness...

thats all stuff why you cant "calculate that stuff" like you cant say "that soccer team got the more expensive players thus they must win"... not even accounting morale of the party (not talking bout the substats here!)

Killing off people in Shatter is important in my opinion, but as you see in this debate, many people think the only key to win is "who gets there first, wins"

I mean, in an ideal world, Shatter would operate under the basis of "bads/newer players = get ice, baller PVP vets = kill dudes" but I think a lot of the "guys stop chasing, focus ice" whining you see in alliance chat comes from the fact that skill level is a variable and unless you can actually secure that kill, you're just tickling the other guy, making their healer work a little (not much net gain due to how crap healers are at doing anything to ice) but otherwise just wasting time.

So it's not necessarily that "zerg ice, ignore doods" is the CORRECT strategy, it's just that its usually the safest strategy when dealing with uncoordinated randos of wildly varying skill levels.

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Originally Posted by Llus

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In shatter it's actually +10 for each kill not +5.

This kind of thing has been an on and off trend since Shatter was released, so it's not all that shocking to see it happening again. It's just one of the many reasons why that game mode has been widely disliked by avid PvP'ers since it was released. It is a terrible trend, though. Kicking anyone out of PvP for actually doing PvP is kind of moronic, especially when the common mentality on how to win in Shatter is often wrong. There's no question that killing ice scores the most points, but it's not always the best option. If you're cut off by an enemy team or just unlucky with the spawns, then you're better off to pick at the enemy strays rather than bleeding more points trying to get to something you'll never score majority on. Or you could just back-door an enemy base. There's always other options in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Reread, I did include the third team.

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You were missing what I was getting at. If one team falls to far from behind and have a few vocal players they can decide who wins. I mean a single mindedness tunnel vision bent on destruction. 48vs24 is not desirable and that is what can happen with kill first type teams. Aether has been plagued(blessed?) with premades. A lot of times third place just keeps pushing premade. Sure they get lots of points from kills but also lose some as well. While the lucky team just has to stay out of the way and do the PvE objectives for only a positive gain.

Literally third place has no desire to win. Just a desire for kills and making the team that decided to kill them lose.

Just got out of a match 500 points down since a premade farmed kills. They were pretty well tied for first at 1k in points. They ended up losing by over 500 since they couldn't handle the pressure of 24 people ignoring everything else but them.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

In shatter it's actually +10 for each kill not +5.

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Is it? Hmm, that's even more incentive to KO opponents; effectively +15 points for your team for each kill and really throws my calculations out the window since a full alliance wipe would be +240 points; only 60 points less than the points available in the large node.

Big ice in 72m has 480,000 hp, divided by 300 is 1600 so yeah, about 1 point per second dpsing (pretty sure most ppl do less than that in pvp but w/e), and that ice will be dead in 20 seconds with 15 people hitting it (/cough. yeah. bear with me)

Ok so say you have 5 ppl each from team A B and C at ice. Team A and B both have all 5 hitting ice. Team C has 4 people hitting ice and one person going for kills. Lets pretend this person doesn't suck and is able to get 1 kill every 5 seconds.

So, at the start
Team A, 5 players on ice, 0 points
Team B, 5 players on ice, 0 points
Team C, 4 players on ice, 0 points

At the 5 second mark, you have
Team A 5 players on ice, 25 points
Team B 4 players on ice, 25 points
Team C 4 players on ice, 20 points

10 seconds
Team A 4 players on ice, 50 points
Team B 4 players on ice, 45 points
Team C 4 players on ice, 40 points

15 seconds
Team A 3 players on ice, 75 points
Team B 4 players on ice, 65 points
Team C 4 players on ice, 60 points

20 seconds
Team A 3 players on ice, 90 points
Team B 3 players on ice, 85 points
Team C 4 players on ice, 80 points

There's now 10 people on ice, with 45 points left on the ice. So for the remainder give 4.5 points per person to each team:
Team A: 103.5 points
Team B: 98.5 points
Team C: 98 points

So team A wins? Nope. Factor in points from kills
Team A: -10 : 93.5 points
Team B: -10 : 88.5 points
Team C: +20 : 118 points

Team C also just gained a battle high and should be able to do even better the remainder of the match. Killing isn't a problem. Going for kills, and failing on the other hand, is. But then so is that one healer who keeps letting people die while doing stone III spam on that magic resisting ice for around 300 damage per second. /shrug.

An even more fantastic solution would have been for all 5 members of team C to just kill everyone, get lots of battle highs, then proceed to clean up whats left of the ice (and in the long haul, dominate the match)

Most people aren't that good at kills, no, but, and I hate to break this to you all, most people aren't that good at dps, either. I guess its a risk-reward thing to a degree. Being a crappy dps will still net your team some points. Being a crappy PvPer and failing to down anyone will get your team nothing. OP did say he was getting fever so I assume in his case he was having some success. And I don't think "differences in play style" (something a gm supposedly said to some guy in a completely different context two years ago in a screenshot on reddit) applies to someone playing the game as it was intended to be played.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

You were missing what I was getting at. If one team falls to far from behind and have a few vocal players they can decide who wins. I mean a single mindedness tunnel vision bent on destruction. 48vs24 is not desirable and that is what can happen with kill first type teams. Aether has been plagued(blessed?) with premades. A lot of times third place just keeps pushing premade. Sure they get lots of points from kills but also lose some as well. While the lucky team just has to stay out of the way and do the PvE objectives for only a positive gain.

Literally third place has no desire to win. Just a desire for kills and making the team that decided to kill them lose.

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Ahh, I see your point. Yea; generally a kill-only team in 72 man will start getting focused by both of the other GC's alliances and unless you have all 3 of your alliances stacked with regulars you're going to lose a ton of points because you'll be in a 2v1 situation the entire match. Which, in itself can be pretty fun even for the 2nd place and 3rd place teams - I feel bad for the 1st place team in that situation though because that must be really boring.

People get kicked in shatter? That's strange, I don't really consider myself that great of a healer and nobody ever wanted to kick me

Bloody hell, this is disturbing. . . People wanting to kick for attacking other players in PvP? Wew, Hydaelyn save these children from themselves!

I've made the suggestion several times to have casters - who do less damage to ice due to its 50% magic resistance - focus on ccing/killing the enemy team at objectives. They can't score if they're not alive to hit the ice, plus any caster with adrenaline can pull double duty using their LB on a tightly packed group of enemy ranged or the melees at the ice. Trying to go for the ice only, then play a passive strategy besides is simply wrong. Same goes for small ice; take out the people there (if there's more of you than them), then it's all yours.

NEVER. CAMP. ICE. Not even if it's the last one. Why? Because some of us are looking at the map. If I know your whole team is camping ice in the north, but your base is south, your base is about to get taken. OR, I can simply have my team rush yours and send you packing, possibly before the ice activates, then you lose your opportunity to be first entirely. Never camp ice.

Get off your mounts near enemies. No seriously, GET OFF YOUR MOUNT NEAR ENEMIES. Don't get ON your mount near enemies. I've seen too many people simply mount up and try to leave as soon as the ice is gone. If I see you do it, I WILL attack you, purely to teach you why not to do it. If you're on my team, I will not cover you. You need to understand this is as bad in PvP as perhaps, say, standing in an aoe you have plenty of time and room to dodge in PvE; it's not smart to do. Don't do it.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

So it's not necessarily that "zerg ice, ignore doods" is the CORRECT strategy

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Nailed it. I was called all sorts when I suggested to focus the leading team whilst at the last ice. Guess what? Yep, those who scream loudest get listened to so 'we' focused the ice & the leading team won. People are convinced that if you get the last hit on an ice you will get all the points. It doesn't work like that, if an enemy team has taken the ice down to 5% & walked away you don't get 100% of the points by killing the last 5%!

I've seen many games won by focusing down the other teams to prevent them getting many/any points on the last big ice whilst only a few players take the ice itself down. We went from third to winning a couple of times doing just that. If everyone clusters the ice it dies quicker but that's because the other teams are hitting it too, thus taking points 'belonging' to you if your alliance has control of the ice & pinch points.

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

Weakness debuff... you can easyily kill him off 2nd time... double weakness...

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You will only see weakness in PvP if the Healer is completely new to pvp.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Ahh, I see your point. Yea; generally a kill-only team in 72 man will start getting focused by both of the other GC's alliances and unless you have all 3 of your alliances stacked with regulars you're going to lose a ton of points because you'll be in a 2v1 situation the entire match. Which, in itself can be pretty fun even for the 2nd place and 3rd place teams - I feel bad for the 1st place team in that situation though because that must be really boring.

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This is really more of a symptom of 3 way pvp than anything else, though I've found it to be an exception rather than a rule. Full focus due to score usually doesn't happen until late game, mainly because you run the risk of giving the third team the advantage if they choose not to assist. What is much more common, though, is that a team will feel like they're being bullied, and dog whichever GC has been pushing them the remainder of the match, regardless of score.

Actually, reliance on this occurring is the core of the "objectives only" tactic, weather people realize it or not. Counting on at least one of the other GC's being stupid, even if it does happen from time to time, isn't something I see as a valid strategy. Its been a thing since seal rock and I'm sure it'll always be around, because it does (sadly) work sometimes and confirmation bias leads people to think that its a good path to winning.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

This is really more of a symptom of 3 way pvp than anything else, though I've found it to be an exception rather than a rule. Full focus due to score usually doesn't happen until late game, mainly because you run the risk of giving the third team the advantage if they choose not to assist. What is much more common, though, is that a team will feel like they're being bullied, and dog whichever GC has been pushing them the remainder of the match, regardless of score.

Actually, reliance on this occurring is the core of the "objectives only" tactic, weather people realize it or not. Counting on at least one of the other GC's being stupid, even if it does happen from time to time, isn't something I see as a valid strategy. Its been a thing since seal rock and I'm sure it'll always be around, because it does (sadly) work sometimes and confirmation bias leads people to think that its a good path to winning.

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Yea, reliance on this strategy of objective only avoid PvP does work; but it's no better than a coin flip in most cases. When the other teams wise up and notice your score they'll often double team you and if they've gotten fever/high buffs you can say goodbye to your lead. This strategy of avoidance does seem to pay off better in seal rock vs new players when your team is in the caves as the coastal teams tend to keep fighting each other; but again this isn't really something you can count on for a win since you have a 1:3 chance of getting caves in the first place and you have no idea what the comp of the coastal teams are.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Yea, reliance on this strategy of objective only avoid PvP does work; but it's no better than a coin flip in most cases.

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Yeah exactly. And as someone who actually does enjoy pvp I find it extremely distasteful in principal. It assumes having very little confidence in yourself or your teammates ability to achieve victory through means of actual pvp. And if that lack of confidence is well founded, it probably *is* the best way to have at least some chance of winning a single match , but nobody is ever going to learn or get better (as you said, it is a coin flip *most* of the time, but not always). But then, that's probably fine with someone who just wants to get their rewards asap and never look back

He did get kicked that day for PvPing. it actually happen!