[Suggestion] 1 Job, 2 Roles

Greetings everyone! I'll get right to it.

Samurai Ability: "Tank Stance"

* Toggle Skill
* Substantially increase enmity generation
* STR and VIT values swapped
* Auto Queue as Tank if on
* Cannot toggle off while in Queue or Duty
(If you changed jobs in queue, Tank Stance would still be on when you switched back)

Red Mage Ability: Healer Stance
(Assuming RDM will already come with some White Magic)

* Toggle Skill
* 3-5 Most useful healing skills are unlocked
* 3-5 Most powerful damaging skills are locked
* INT and MND values swapped
* Auto Queue as Healer if on
* Cannot toggle off while in Queue or Duty
(If you changed jobs in queue, Healer Stance would still be on when you switched back)

Addressing drops:

* Increase rate of INT and STR based gear
OR
* Currency only gear system. (You put in the time, you should get the gear)


Your thoughts?

This has been proposed before. The general consensus is: "No thanks".

As much as I wouldn't mind being able to heal on a RDM, I have to say no as well. Maybe in a distant expansion in which they give each job a secondary role with a similiar-but-different weapon selection, but right now, I don't think we can hope to see it.

No thanks. The system as it is creates jobs with specific lore and capability in their role. Making hybrids out of DPS jobs is just another way of allowing the DPS mentality to bleed into other roles.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No thanks. The system as it is creates jobs with specific lore and capability in their role. Making hybrids out of DPS jobs is just another way of allowing the DPS mentality to bleed into other roles.

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Pretty sure the DPS mentality already exists in other roles. Warriors and Scholars are staples in the tanking and healing role due to their ability to effectively DPS.

I theory, this is great, however, in practice it is abysmal... What happens is you get a DPS version queue up as a healer, just to get faster queues, then refuse to heal as its "not their style." I've seen it happen in other games, and those forums are stuffed to the gills with threads asking for them to be removed.

The simple truth of the matter is that in MMOs, choice and options are a lie and illusion. It's simply better to have a job designed for a specific role and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Pretty sure the DPS mentality already exists in other roles. Warriors and Scholars are staples in the tanking and healing role due to their ability to effectively DPS.

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Indeed, that's why I said "another way" because the bleed over is already a near lethal hemorrhage.

The OPs suggestion would simply further sideline tanks and healers, a thought to which I could give my verdict, but I would likely earn a forum ban for the language.

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Originally Posted by Ramath

I theory, this is great, however, in practice it is abysmal... What happens is you get a DPS version queue up as a healer, just to get faster queues, then refuse to heal as its "not their style." I've seen it happen in other games, and those forums are stuffed to the gills with threads asking for them to be removed.

The simple truth of the matter is that in MMOs, choice and options are a lie and illusion. It's simply better to have a job designed for a specific role and leave it at that.

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It doesn't work this way with Summoners and Scholars though. Can't say I've come across Scholars who refuse to heal because it isn't their Style. Which is why I'd prefer this was done with a secondary kind of weapon. Imagine being able to queue as a Warrior with the DPS role while dual-wielding axes? Or as a Dark Knight in the DPS role with a Scythe? In a lot of ways a second weapon option for a second role would balance things out reasonably with player expectation and desire.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

It doesn't work this way with Summoners and Scholars though. Can't say I've come across Scholars who refuse to heal because it isn't their Style. Which is why I'd prefer this was done with a secondary kind of weapon. Imagine being able to queue as a Warrior with the DPS role while dual-wielding axes? Or as a Dark Knight in the DPS role with a Scythe? In a lot of ways a second weapon option for a second role would balance things out reasonably with player expectation and desire.

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Well, SMN and SCH are 2 different jobs. Hes talking about differentiating them with skills, which is entirely different.

See SMN/SCH as to why they don't want to do something like this...again.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, SMN and SCH are 2 different jobs. Hes talking about differentiating them with skills, which is entirely different.

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Except not really, he suggested that when they activate the stance, they lose some abilities and gain access to others that fit the role.

Which is essentially the same as switching between SMN/SCH, except they just have to switch a stance and not a soulstone/gear. They said they'd rather not do two jobs (or in this case, a hybrid) tied to a single base again, as it limits what they can do with either of them.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, SMN and SCH are 2 different jobs. Hes talking about differentiating them with skills, which is entirely different.

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A good point. I can't agree with a Stance because you'd still have subpar tanking/healing due to a lack of the appropriate skillset. 5 tanking or healing spells/skills wouldn't be enough to effectively tank I imagine. You'd also not have access to the necessary cross-class/job skills that'll be coming up.

I think at the point that it becomes fair it would be easier to just design a new job, easier for SE I mean (all the abilities and scaling, stat allotment, what items they needed, etc) - for players being able to not do anything but have an entirely different type of job would be big boon.. to the specific befitting player at least (assuming SE could balance it lol). I think it'll be better if we just related the job via story and perhaps requirements, to unlock Shogun have a level 60 Samurai.

Talking about weird scenarios with stats though, I think it may be interesting to see a job here and there (not common) that uses stats that would be considered unusual. For example:

Necromancer support healer using INT (BLM/SMN gear) instead of MND
Aether/Gravity/Bloodmancer, some sort of Golbez like influence mage using VIT/STR (tank gear)
Geomancer tank using MND/INT (mage gear).
Dancer healer using monk like gear.

Just random examples, don't be concerned if you feel Necromancer isn't a healer or Geomancer a tank or whatever lol - was just picking weird variations outside the norm. Obviously the job would need to consider side stats, like a DD using tank gear you might not give them any defensive abilities or give them a lot of self weakening abilities that empower themselves to balance out the naturally high gifts from being able to use tank gear (must be mindful of the theme a gear set gives, but shouldn't be impossible to design with).

Breaking the normal scheme would make it even more important to either A. make personal loot (what drops is yours) and or B. make loot tables change their rates based on the composition of the group so rates increase of usable main gear and decrease for other non-present jobs.

No thanks. I want a real Samurai tank

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No thanks. The system as it is creates jobs with specific lore and capability in their role. Making hybrids out of DPS jobs is just another way of allowing the DPS mentality to bleed into other roles.

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What about making DPS out of hybrids? Traditionally that's what a RDM started off as in the FF series. Jack of all trades and master of none. Now, they're strictly DPS. After they announced it at fanfest or whatever it was, it was touted as a melee/ caster hybrid, I was pretty stoked about playing that job. Now that it's out that they're only ranged DPS, some of that excitement has left, but still leaves me wanting to play that job. What are your thoughts about that?

I have no clue about SAM in the FF universe though.

Yoshida commented on something similar (notice how his reply can answer your question, but not the interviewer's qustion):

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

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Customizing characters besides just appearance?

We got several posts from players who wanted to be able to customize not only their character's appearance but also their skills and equipment for a particular job so that they could show some more individuality. This is a topic we've seen come up since the initial release of A Realm Reborn.

Yoshida: Right. So, if we did something like add mode A and mode B for dragoon, eventually people on the internet would examine them and choose which one was stronger. Then, when we created new content, the content would have to be based on whatever was strongest. There would be a lot of discussion about the job states like "that job is too strong" or "that job is too weak" and people would always choose what they felt was best. That's not to say a skill system like that would be negative, but the armoury system itself already allows you to play all of the different jobs. Since we already have that system in place, I'm not expecting that we'll make branches for jobs for the time being.

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On the "good" side, never I thought I'd live to see a white mage being more versatile than a red mage. Experiences that only FFXIV can offer.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Necromancer support healer using INT (BLM/SMN gear) instead of MND
Aether/Bloodmancer using VIT/STR (tank gear)
Geomancer tank using MND/INT (mage gear).
Dancer healer using monk like gear.

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Necromancer: Won't happen for lore reasons. Basically, raising the dead is blasphemy and unholy. Practitioners are seen as evil and are either executed or jailed. That comes from Koji directly in an old Live Letter (that I'm not even going to attempt to dig up, it's that old).
Aether/Bloodmancer: Aether itself is horribly unstable and unpredictable and directly channeling it is detrimental being ultimately lethal to the user. This is why Matoya chastises Y'stola for using it to see since it will slowly kill her. I think Blood magic falls under the same category as Necromancy.
Geomancer and Dancer: We'll likely see these jobs at some point.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Yoshida commented on something similar[...]

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Heh, that interview still cracks me up.

Expecting DPS to pull 85-90% of their theoretical potential while expecting healers and tanks to not even use their entire skillset. And people talk about double standards!

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Necromancer: Won't happen for lore reasons. Basically, raising the dead is blasphemy and unholy. Practitioners are seen as evil and are either executed or jailed. That comes from Koji directly in an old Live Letter (that I'm not even going to attempt to dig up, it's that old).
Aether/Bloodmancer: Aether itself is horribly unstable and unpredictable and directly channeling it is detrimental being ultimately lethal to the user. This is why Matoya chastises Y'stola for using it to see since it will slowly kill her. I think Blood magic falls under the same category as Necromancy.
Geomancer and Dancer: We'll likely see these jobs at some point.

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Were you just entertaining the lore ideas for the fun?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Just random examples, don't be concerned if you feel Necromancer isn't a healer or Geomancer a tank or whatever lol - was just picking weird variations outside the norm.

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I mean it's cool if you were doing it just for fun, but if you thought I was making "legitimate, thought out examples" it was more like me whipping up random things that break the normal "mage gets the mage gear, healer gets the healer gear, ranged players get the light cloth" without utterly destroying job image. RDM image is not one in full ironworks of fending for example, they have an image and I do like SE maintaining job image as best as they can - which is why suggesting a job that is abnormal makes more sense to me. Also I like Golbez so something that gives a throw back to him would be cool :3 (but he's sort of a BLM so somethings have to change, if they did attempt it).

Although I think even if it is a horrible idea I still like costly magic ideas in games, Lore: "doing this is bad for you but is powerful" me: ". . . . . LET'S DO IT!!!!". lol. Like FFXI's Bluemage. So while yes lore says messing with something is dangerous, I don't think that makes it illegal - makes it more interesting ;D.

The whole Necromancer thing could be problematic though, even an inkling that you bring back the dead yeah.. makes sense as a lore issue (although I think people also hate Dark Knights if they knew more about them). The living dead ability is pretty close to necromancer right?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Necromancer is dumb and un-FF (even though we got it in FFV advance, it was just a BLU that used Dark Magic). Even still, it would just be another pet job with some kind of Ghost or Zombie egi. Boring.

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Fixing way too much on the "random" examples mate. It was not "make a necromancer" it was just attempting to make examples of situations outside the norm - and just because one job interpretation was bad does not make them all bad, that's a bit silly. However the lore that everyone wants to murder you if you were a necromancer is a bit significant lol.

Necromancer is dumb and un-FF (even though we got it in FFV advance, it was just a BLU that used Dark Magic). Even still, it would just be another pet job with some kind of Ghost or Zombie egi. Boring.

A Job with versatility? Heavens forbid!

We can't stray from the holy trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS, it would destroy the world as we know it!

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Were you just entertaining the lore ideas for the fun? Cause I just whipped out random examples, and said so in the same post for the sake of showing "weird combinations" like a mage tank using mage gear, or a DD mage using tank gear.


(I mean it's cool if you were doing it just for fun, but if you thought I was making "legitimate, thought out examples" it was more like me whipping up random things that break the normal "mage gets the mage gear, healer gets the healer gear, ranged players get the light cloth".

Although I think even if it is a horrible idea I still like costly magic ideas in games, Lore: "doing this is bad for you but is powerful" me: ". . . . . LET'S DO IT!!!!". lol. Like FFXI's Bluemage.

The whole Necromancer thing could be problematic though, even an inkling that you bring back the dead yeah.. makes sense as a lore issue (although I think people also hate Dark Knights if they knew more about them).

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Eh, it was more an examination of why we're not likely to see those particular jobs even without the weird gearing and stats. Some jobs, just by their nature alone, won't fit in the XIV universe... so while theorizing about such things is fine, it's difficult see those two in particular as examples of what you're intending since they really don't work in the game anyway.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Eh, it was more an examination of why we're not likely to see those particular jobs even without the weird gearing and stats. Some jobs, just by their nature alone, won't fit in the XIV universe... so while theorizing about such things is fine, it's difficult see those two in particular as examples of what you're intending since they really don't work in the game anyway.

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Ah well I wasn't seriously concerned about "Necromancer" as much as the combination of off gear and role combinations, so the point of making "necro" was sort of out of focus for the point of the post as much as it was to focus on the gear and role combinations being different (purposeful mismatching). Suppose I could have been incredibly vague instead XD.

Further on aether: We already have aether manipulations I thought, iirc is sort of breed into many jobs already with specifically easy examples on BLM and SMN (one spell is literally called Aetherial Manipulation). I think it's also said in lore with BLM story/certainly SMN's (although both are on small scales). I haven't memorized the lore but isn't the larger/sloppier forms the ones that cause a lot of issues (like Y'shtola's)? Like Primals, giant bodies of aether. I don't remember the exact point it was considred taboo, but at a low level I'm fairly certain it's the core premise of many jobs and accepted activity (mostly when you're manipulating your own, SMN is sort of a black sheep with tiny grabs at other's but not enough to get rocks thrown at by the public yet hehe).

I mean I wasn't really imaging a job that uses purely unaspected aether but since you said we likely couldn't have one based on it.. what were you imagining a tank aethermage to be? I'm interested in :3, I like danger jobs - Harmonixer in Shadow Hearts, Bluemage becoming a beast in FFXI. As for context why I said aether I just was trying to say BLM without saying BLM haha - since Golbez is pretty much BLM with AST side spells. I'd say just add his armor into the game as fan service but then it would be made so everyone could wear it and I dunno, WHM in Golbez armor feels like a weird idea to me (I'd rather not then.. what a party pooper I am I know lol).

Dancer seems like an easy likely example of doing an unusual build though, clearly the monk gear is close enough to Dancer that many thought the monk in the trailer was a teaser for dancer. So you could have your healer decking itself out in cloth strength gear with crit/det.

Anyway, I picked other weird job names because I didn't want to piss people off with their favorite images like Timemage in subligars only, Beastmaster in Dark Knight only~! I didn't really think many cared about Necro so I could say whatever I want, apparently its disliked as a job entirely haha, and I know DNC is liked but I didn't feel I was going outside the idea too much by saying monk gear. The opportunity to switch it up with gear would be best for something either new or certainly abnormal (which would of course make it much later in the timeline/when Yoshida doesn't want to revive a well known job), but I still think it could be fun to see something as simple as gear groups break "sometimes" (so long as it doesn't kill looting rates). So I like some of the Op's idea of things shifting, just think it should be done in a separate job not 1 -> 2. 2:2. (Whether it's themes, roles, or gear).

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I came up with this thread when thinking about how most of my friends/FC mates will be maining dps come 4.0. I've been healing 90% of the time since 2.0 and was hoping for a break and going dps myself. So it's depressing thinking about the long queue times and the fact it'll mostly be solo especially at a time when my favorite FF job is introduced. My hope is they all get bored and go back to what they we're doing before, or maybe I'll hate RDM in FF14 :P

WAR and SCH are already problematic guaranteed raid slots, which is two too many to begin with

/absolutelynot

To be honest most jobs already are split between 2 roles.

Ast is a support role and a healer role
War is a tank role and a dps role
Ninja is a dps and a support role
Scholar is a dps and a healer role.

Most jobs are multi riled. Except the 3 that are currently undesirable and no one really wants

Whm pld and monk.

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Originally Posted by Stitches1974

I have no clue about SAM in the FF universe though.

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They throw gil at the problem :)

Want to down that pesky current raid content well use "Gil Toss" and throw gil at your problem only 50M gil and you too can solo the top content!

(for those who dont get it I am joking even though Gil Toss was kind of the sam thing in previous games)

If you want a job/class to fill more than one function I suggest you try World of Warcraft. Otherwise I'm not sure how well such a thing would work with FFXIV. Also why are PLD, WHM, and Monk undesirable? Don't you know that WAR are undesirable in Zurvan extreme.