4.0 tank buff ability changes, please don't do this

"PLD's Rampart and DRK's Shadowskin are becoming the same skill (no mention of WAR's Foresight, but I can only imagine it will be as well), and will be a cross-role skill for tanks."

-https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/5xrv3u/more_information_from_korean_live_letter/

I can understand issues like changing Thunder 1,2,3,etc, but fusing a tank buff that is class specific to make 1 cross-job ability that neither can use by itself is kind of frelling stupid. It takes away class individuality to make a single skill, while dark can't equip rampart nor can pld equip shadowskin. This seems pointless and just removes job flavor.:confused:

well rampath and shadowskin are already the same but diferent name, icon and animation, the only one was working diferent is innerbeast, i dont mind if they made it like a generic mitigation tool for all tanks if they still keep they animation and icon, idk something like in the lisp apear like "defense of the tank: 20% damage mitigation 90 seconds recast" but depend of wath job you equip it take the name, the icon and the animation of rampath, shadowskin or innerbeast.

Where was this verified at?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Where was this verified at?

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The Korean live letter

Yay, more "Here's some changes for you DPS to look forward to. No, we still have no idea what we're doing for you Tanks and Healers."

So how does this benefit tanks again, by just makin them a single ability , it would make sense if we had a fourth tank and now they have access to it but wont be getting one of those so it basically, just would make warrior even more op

The change is fine, as long as each class keeps it's unique graphic I have no complaints.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

The change is fine, as long as each class keeps it's unique graphic I have no complaints.

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I agree, I expressed concern for this when I first heard this news.

What's the purpose of making Rampart and Shadowskin the same skill?

Sure, they do the same thing, but isn't playing different classes also because of visual appeal?
I really love the Shadowskin animation with the greatsword being held like a shield in front of you.

Rampart also looks cool with the barrier-like shells around you.

If they become the same ability, I feel like each job loses its unique appeal, even if it just cosmetic.
I would really hope they at least keep the animation for each job, it helps maintain the individuality that I've enjoyed between the job roles.

There are a few implications here.

WAR will now have access to rampart if it's a role skill, so will PLD and DRK get something equivalent to inner beast?
Is this just for rampart to put some meat on the role skill bones or is this going to effect other skills with similar effects too? E.G. Will sentinel, vengeance and shadowskin be combined too? If so, which one will take priority? 30% mitigation or 40%? 3mins or 2 mins CD? Will all tanks gain the vengeance counterattack?

If they take away access to Internal Release imma cry.

I still don't understand what will doing this accomplish.

Yes, at the core they are both pretty much the same skill, so does this mean WAR will have access to another flat percentage damage reduction skill on top of Inner Beast?

Will other tanks get IB equivalence too?

Will PLD finally be able to block magical damage?

Will all tanks play pretty much the same except with different flavor?

I just can't see where they are going with this.

So... tanks will be getting homogenized, but I'm sure the devs still will find a way to make PLD weaker than the other two.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

So... tanks will be getting homogenized, but I'm sure the devs still will find a way to make PLD weaker than the other two.

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Sentinel being merged with Shadow Wall. Please look forward to it.

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For tanks, they plan to do something (no specifics) about WAR OT.

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mmmmmm, well lets see.

edit: well remember rampart is a 10% damage mitigation with a trait to become a 20%, so meaby means WAR are only going to get a 10% damage mitigation, meh how knows

For some reason the more I think about the tank change the more I think that Foresight will become the -20% damage ability for all tanks.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

For some reason the more I think about the tank change the more I think that Foresight will become the -20% damage ability for all tanks.

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If it does, I'm gonna rage...

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

If they take away access to Internal Release imma cry.

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I'm curious about how this will work too, IR and second wind are pretty great tools in the WAR arsenal. Stoneskin and protect in PLD's and those are a big part of its identity too, as the healing tank. So there must be something that's going to keep these tools in their kit.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

The change is fine, as long as each class keeps it's unique graphic I have no complaints.

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:: Not aimed at you, Khal, just generally speaking...

That's a heck of a condition that would have remained guaranteed if they simply didn't change it. And for what?

The only possible benefit is that Gladiator can get its Rampart-equivalent at level 1 instead of level 2 (as there is nothing that can down-sync a DRK to level 1 anyways). Whoopdi*******do? How is any level one Gladiator going to feel disturbed by his lack of Shadowskin for the three courier quests level 1 lasts?

Other than that we no longer have any assurance that they will keep their unique graphics, and are damn near assured that they won't keep their unique names. There is zero change to button bloat, as each only ever had access to one of the two anyways. (Were there just too many terms in the game? Was this an attempt to battle bibliobloat?) How do the positives here possibly outweigh the negatives?

In general, before accept things on such unlikely conditions as "so long as it doesn't do any of the things that would assumably go wrong with it", how about looking at the positives, and just how small they are in these cases against those likely negatives.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There is zero change to button bloat, as each only ever had access to one of the two anyways. (Were there just too many terms in the game? Was this an attempt to battle bibliobloat?) How do the positives here possibly outweigh the negatives?

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I thought as much also, but please see this post:

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

For some reason the more I think about the tank change the more I think that Foresight will become the -20% damage ability for all tanks.

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If my theory is correct, that is the "fix" (please note I am using this term VERY loosely) to some button bloat. Allowing Drk and Pld to just use Foresight (which will have the same effect) and thereby freeing up the Shadowskin and Rampart button... that is assuming you even cross class foresight in the first place. The more I think about it though, the more I think Foresight is going to become THE 20% damage reduction button.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's a heck of a condition that would have remained guaranteed if they simply didn't change it.

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It's not that big of a deal. If you use Fracture on PLD, it already has a different animation than WAR, while still being the same skill.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

The more I think about it though, the more I think Foresight is going to become THE 20% damage reduction button.

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I'm not sure why Foresight would be included as part of the Shadowskin/Rampart thing. It has as much in common with them as Convalescence and Thrill of Battle do; "20% something for 20 seconds"
Less in common actually, Convalescence and Thrill of Battle at least help when magic damage is going out by way of ease of recovery or extra cushioning. Foresight doesn't touch the Magic Defense stat, only Defense.

foresight might just get chopped, also idk what people expected...this is what skill consolidation looks like :P (honestly i see them maybe saving some of the animations for "other" skills, though I wouldn't mind if they just had like x skill does 20% reduction then does rampart shadowskin or foresight based on class for animation since I don't see it being easier the other way around anyways)

I am curious to see how they handle WAR overall though, its the only tank that has had a considerable "hint" of nerfing aimed at it by Yoshi P himself. (will suck a bit, but if it brings them all in line screw it >.>)

Assuming PLD and DRK get unique skill replacements for Rampart and Shadowskin, respectively, then I see nothing wrong with this change. Also I assume Inner Beast will be adjusted in response since the last thing WAR needs are more mitigation options.

The Foresight comment was most likely the user thinking it's a 20% DR like the other aforementioned skills.

Hope they do the same for Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes. Just consolidate it into one ability and give traits to improve it to certain jobs. Also remove the penalty, it's pointless. This isn;t FFXI

Geit and Shield Oath will get merged to a single skill and be a cross role skill please look forward to it warriors!

seriously this only seeming to benefit warrior. probably Second wind and ir will be going away though,
and yeah someone said it homogenization. For those skills in particular though, theyre pretty much the same. now if shadow wall and vengeance got merged id be ok with that definitely as a cross role skill.

People say that homogenization isn't really ideal and I agree with that, but seeing how they've shot themselves in the foot with the balance issue, it could be their only way out in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

People say that homogenization isn't really ideal and I agree with that, but seeing how they've shot themselves in the foot with the balance issue, it could be their only way out in my opinion.

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This isn't homogenization. Its moving a common must have cooldown from the individual job skill list to the role skill list.

Merging Rampart/Shadowskin/Foresight into one role skill frees up 1 ability and 1 trait slot for all 3 jobs which can have actual unique distinct abilities in those slots.
Shifting Provoke and Convalescence to the role skill list opens up 1 trait and 2 more ability slots for Paladin.

The question should be: "What unique things are they going to add to each job in these slots?"

Will freeing up 3 ability slots mean that Paladin can have its own AoE attack, HP Shield spell and another way of protecting the party pre-50?

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

This isn't homogenization. Its moving a common must have cooldown from the individual job skill list to the role skill list.

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The problem with this idea is the more things they just turn into a universal button to make way for new things at the level is that it's still not considering their plan to keep our button count the same.
Three new things to press before even hitting 50, then whatever it is they're adding in 61-70. What are they cutting?
So far the only button anyone is suggesting be actually cut is Foresight. It has no actual similarities to Rampart/Shadowskin, and is in fact currently able to be used along side them, so just suddenly deciding it's the same as them is one cut. That's it. Still need two more cuts just for Provoke and Convalescence as you're suggesting. Still need a few more cuts for 61-70 stuff.
Telling us they're going to turn functionally identical buttons into the same button in name tells us nothing about what they're actually going to do. -20% taken button is still -20% taken button.

I don't see the reason for this change. It is fine as it is right now.

I see the reason to get some skills out due to the lack of space for new skills, but i don't see any reason to make classes easier. If someone wants to play properly he will learn and if not then not, playing with only 4 buttons instead of 20 won't change anything about that.

SE devs - finding new ways to screw over paladin with every patch and expansion.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

If they take away access to Internal Release imma cry.

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Get ready to cry. I see Blood 4 Blood, Internal release, second wind, basically every job buff being ripped from their jobs and stuffed into this system.

I can only hope we'll be getting something to replace these...

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The question should be: "What unique things are they going to add to each job in these slots?"

Will freeing up 3 ability slots mean that Paladin can have its own AoE attack, HP Shield spell and another way of protecting the party pre-50?

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I agree with this. I think if anything, these changes will leave DRK and WAR feeling more or less the same (save for whatever incoming nerfs they have prepared for WAR), but it will help Paladin a little bit by giving them things that actually build a much-needed class identity while not necessarily adding more skills than they already have. Cross-class skills were so useless for PLD that you ended up just having them there, and this isn't counting Tempered Will and Cover, which are almost never used. As much as I love Tempered Will and would hate to see it go, I think the aim for this change to free up skill slots is to give PLD some utility that is actually useful, making the job gain more from cross-role skills, and maybe open up new skill slots to fix some of the job's problems, like lack of AoE and TP issues.

This might benefit DRK in the long run too, perhaps by giving them better enmity generation in single target scenarios.

The aim of this kind of change is something that could potentially help WHM in the same vein, since they are the healer role that gains the least out of cross-class skills. Putting Provoke and Cleric Stance in the cross-role skill list will probably free up something to hopefully give WHM some of the much needed MP management, mitigation or utility the job is lacking right now.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

If my theory is correct, that is the "fix" (please note I am using this term VERY loosely) to some button bloat. Allowing Drk and Pld to just use Foresight (which will have the same effect) and thereby freeing up the Shadowskin and Rampart button... that is assuming you even cross class foresight in the first place. The more I think about it though, the more I think Foresight is going to become THE 20% damage reduction button.

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Again though, if you have, say, 18 native skills and 4 cross class skills instead of 17 native skills and 5 cross-class skills, then there is ZERO change to button-bloat. It only reduces the number of names involved in the game. If you mean that it frees up the Shadowskin/Rampart/Foresight level 2 skill slot for something more interesting (the 20% instead being given automatically as their first *mandatory* cross-class slot, for instance), then there may be something to that, but consolidating ACROSS classes does not change button bloat. Only consolidating multiple skills into one WITHIN a class and then REDUCING the total skills given to the class can reduce the button count.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's not that big of a deal. If you use Fracture on PLD, it already has a different animation than WAR, while still being the same skill.

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If you use Impulse Drive on Monk, it still has the same particle effects as on Lancer. As Rampart was only ever a squat, forgive me if I find the added effects more important, and worry that there is no precedent for their being distinct between classes.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

The problem with this idea is the more things they just turn into a universal button to make way for new things at the level is that it's still not considering their plan to keep our button count the same.

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You are confusing things. They said to different things that they will be moving must have skills (such as Provoke and Rampart/Shadowskin) to a Role skill list and that they will be reducing button bloat by replacing old abilities with higher level abilities. Traits will likely be changing how some current abilities work. We will not be getting 5 new abilities in 61 to 70 like we did 51 to 60. We will likely be getting only 1 or 2 new abilities with the rest of the improvements being from existing abilities upgraded by traits.

The Paladin is cutting these skills that go in the 5 cross class skill slots:

• Cure
• Foresight
• Skull Sunder
• Fracture
• Protect
• Bloodbath
• Raise
• Mercy Stroke
• Stoneskin

Warrior is cutting these skills that go in those 5 slots:

• Savage Blade
• Featherfoot
• Flash
• Second Wind
• Convalescence
• Haymaker
• Internal Release
• Provoke
• Awareness
• Mantra

Dark Knight is cutting these skills that go in those 5 slots:

• Foresight
• Skull Sunder
• Fracture
• Bloodbath
• Mercy Stroke
• Savage Blade
• Flash
• Convalescence
• Provoke
• Awareness

All 3 Tanks are replaced those skills with a Role Skill list likely containing these and possibly other abilities and they are intending that we will switch stuff out based on the needs of content:

• Provoke (mentioned in the announcement)
• Rampart/Shadowskin (mentioned in the Korean Live Letter)
• Convalescence (likely)
• Awareness (likely)
• Bloodbath (possibly)
• Mercy Stroke (possibly)

4 of these abilities are currently Gladiator/Paladin abilities. Moving these from the Gladiator/Paladin skill list to the Role Skill list will free up 4 ability slots and 2 trait slots.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A whole ton of assumptions with little evidence.

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Outside of the few things specifically stated, what proof do you have to any of that? How do you know we're only getting 1-2 skills 61-70? How do you know they're just going to be unloading a ton of traits into things to change them up? How do you know that Foresight is going to be gone completely? That Reddit speculation, where most people seem to be getting the idea that it's getting axed and fused to Rampart/Shadowskin, page even updated pointing out that they shouldn't have made that speculation due to them not being the same thing but being unaware of it due to not even being a tank.
They aren't telling us anything of value and the things that would be most helpful are what they're being most vague on.

Rampart in a list of selectable role skills? Hope you like your DF tanks with no basic defensive cooldown ;)

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Rampart in a list of selectable role skills? Hope you like your DF tanks with no basic defensive cooldown ;)

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lol yes pretty much this. maybe theyll just boost tank stance to 40 percent damage reduction though, cause this, this sounds pretty awful but true, looks good for warrior. Maybe berserk will be tossed into role skills though. yeah probably not

If one of the goals of the new battle system rework is to keep the number of actions unchanged (to keep hotbars and keybinds from becoming excessive), then you cannot add a new action without either removing one action or merging two. It's a bit like that challenge mode at fanfest where you are only allowed five actions on your hotbar: it forces you to distil the job down to its essential actions.

I feel like the shared role actions are a bit of a distraction in this regard. If you move Provoke off of PLD's job actions and into the shared role actions, it does not free up an extra place on your hotbar to introduce additional action. Every tank still uses it. It just simplifies the naming conventions because you no longer need a new "Provoke" for every tank job. It also simplifies the work needed to create a new job in a particular role category, since you have a starting template to work with.

If you want to look at how the devs could free up hotbar space, it's worth looking at some of the proposed BLM changes. For example, if Enochian is now a permanent buff, then it also doesn't have to take up space on your hotbar. It just needs to be a trait. Likewise, you really don't need two separate hotbar actions to change between two stances. If Sword Oath and Deliverance were traits instead of actions, you would just need a single action to toggle to Shield Oath and Defiance, respectively. That would free up room for additional actions. You could adopt a similar approach to NIN poisons and MNK stances as well.

The proposed change to merge Thunder I-III could be implemented as trait-based as well. If you need to have an action whose potency scales with level, then you can just implement in different traits instead of distinct actions. When you level sync, the traits adjust. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar for WHM's Stone I-III, although I can't really think of a tank analogy at present.

There are a few other ways that you could combine actions as well. WAR's stance dependent actions could be merged to free up hotbar space (i.e. IB/FC and SC/Decimate). This wouldn't be particularly surprising, given that the Wrath/Abandon stack system is potentially getting merged into a single "Origin" system, based off of their proposed UI changes. Similarly, some buffs that get activated synergistically (i.e. IR/Berserk) could have their effects merged into a single action without significantly changing gameplay.

I don't think that moving Rampart/Shadowskin to the shared role actions pool represents homogenization. Functionally, defensive cooldowns often have parallels across all three tanks, with slight variations for flavor. As an example, you could easily merge Sentinel, Vengeance, and Shadow Wall into a single shared action, and keep them functionally identical to the way that they are now by adding job specific traits:

i.e. Sentinel: Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 10s, Recast: 180s.
PLD trait: Increases damage reduction to 40%.
WAR trait: Delivers an attack with potency 50 every time you take damage. Grants a stack of Wrath/Abandon/Origin. Duration increased to 15s. Recast reduced to 120s.
DRK trait: Nil.

This sort of thing doesn't change gameplay, outside of helping newer players to pick up and learn new jobs without having to relearn the nomenclature. Also, if you need to introduce a new tank job, you just look at the shared role skills and make slight variations on the theme to create a starting point.

The merge between Rampart and Shadowskin doesn't really affect PLD and DRK players outside of superficial appearances (personally, I don't care what they do with the name as long as they keep the DRK animation, as it's aesthetically a step up from PLD's 1.0 era animations). It does, however, impact WAR, giving them a powerful new 20% DR cooldown.

This is important, because most of the differences in WAR's cooldown kit relative to the other two tanks were based off of the fact that it historically didn't have access to Rampart. Inner Beast was changed in 2.1 from a major self heal to a short duration, on-demand 20% DR cooldown as an alternative, compensating for the fact that ToB and traited Foresight just didn't cut it on their own. WAR's stronger cooldowns tend to be much shorter in recast than the other two tanks to compensate for a lack of access to Rampart. This historically lent itself especially well to OT situations where you just need to briefly step in once every minute, blow through your strong cooldowns to eat a tankbuster, and jump out, rather than taking sustained damage with 35s interval tankbusters.

The addition of Raw Intuition in HW as a makeshift physical Rampart, along with the introduction of Fell Cleave to disincentivize IB fit in with this proposed development. If WAR gains access to Rampart, I'll be very interested to see how the rest of WAR's defensive kit gets reworked around this.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If one of the goals of the new battle system rework is to keep the number of actions unchanged (to keep hotbars and keybinds from becoming excessive), then you cannot add a new action

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With what you mention about tank stances how would that work with drk

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

With what you mention about tank stances how would that work with drk

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Darkside, like enochian would just be permanent probably and maybe finally have the outside mp regen penalty removed
mechanically dropping tank stance wouldnt really change, but you wouldnt need that button to cut it on or off(darkside)