Hello! I hope whoever is reading this is having a great day! As the title suggests, the following is my idea for what I believe would better suit Warrior's playstyle and help it stand out from the other tanks. Warrior is currently in a great place, but lacks a unique identity from the other tanks. The following are my suggestions to make Warrior more focused on converting damage to healing to stay alive instead of flat damage reduction mechanics like the other tanks.
- Revert Inner Beast to heal you for 300% of the damage dealt and remove the damage reduction aspect
- Buff defiance to increase max health by 35%, heal you for 25% of damage you deal, and remove Bloodbath.
- Change Storm's Path to apply a shield for 150% of the damage dealt instead of a heal for 50% of the damage dealt and remove the damage reduction aspect.
Let me know your thoughts and have a great day!
Warrior Suggestion
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02-25-2017, 12:20 AMThatusernameistakenWarrior Suggestion
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02-25-2017, 01:17 AMKai_Lee
Oh wow, talk about OP
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02-25-2017, 01:19 AMKai_Lee
You don't need a healer anymore with those suggested changes, plus equilibrium plus second wind, potion and thrill of battle
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02-25-2017, 01:28 AMThatusernameistaken
It's my understanding that crossclass skills are being reworked/removed in Stormblood, so Second Wind wouldn't be part of the toolkit anymore. And TBH, Warriors didn't need a healer back when IB was a 300% heal and people still complained it was underpowered. They complained so much, in fact, that Warrior was changed to what we see today. So the community definitely didn't see this playstyle as overpowered back then as you're suggesting. Even taking into account the additional tools we have today, I do not think this would be nearly as OP as you're suggesting.
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02-25-2017, 03:11 AMIlan
Nah it won't be OP if you heal yourself by 25% on every hit that you do since WAR don't deal any dmg at all.
That is sarcasm if there are people out there who aren't able to understand that. -
02-25-2017, 03:36 AMDementIt would be incredibly OP to have even more HP, a constant form of Bloodbath and shields equivalent of non-crit SCH shields (my Storms Path can crit to 3-4k which would give me a ~6k shield every 3 GCDs as well as cure me for about 3k HP in those 3 GCDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken
Also WAR wasn't changed because it was underpowered, it was changed because of the way Twintania's tankbusters worked. WAR had no mitigation while PLD had a ton of mitigation. WAR could literally not tank it because Death Sentence would basically 1 shot them. It's hard to use a reactive ability (Old inner beast) to heal yourself when the move is designed so that PLDs would have to use mitigation. Couple that with the way endgame healing works (you proactively cast Cure when high damage is coming, you don't wait for the damage to go out) and it was a mess of overhealing. It's much better to have a proactive ability (new inner beast and vengeance) to mitigate. -
02-25-2017, 04:10 AMbounddreamerLOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Ilan
Thanks for the laugh -
02-25-2017, 04:50 AMReynhartKeep in mind that, back then, WAR had absolutely no mitigation...at all. And that the healing bonus was not tied to Defiance but Wrath. For me Defiance should stay as it is, and Inner Beast could be reverted back to its previous effect...with a little twist. Any HP leech above your max HP would increase your max HP for a short duration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken
I'd like WAR to come back to its original concept of tanking by sheer HP and increased healing. -
02-25-2017, 05:59 AMshao32the problem whit this 2 are how scaling with damage, the defiance buff heal you for 25% + innerbeast 300% heals can be pretty much more with bersek, i mean its become a 325% self heal around the damage you dealt with inner beast?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken
and the shield/selfheal need to be tie on defiance or those 150% shields on deliverance can be more powerfull that sentinel or by exception they dont stack with healers one, all this changes with the actual state of bersek can make WAR stay in they OP status this expansion, i dont want to imagine a 150% shield in deliverance with bersek.
in any case i put all self heals and shields effect behind defiance and bersek dont scale with ap anymore to have it undercontrol, meaby reduce the effects of someones to make unchained more usefull and act like a virtual cd bcs you can use those shields every 2 gdc. -
02-25-2017, 07:23 AMUltimatecaliburAnd the Warrior would end up close to where it was in 2.0 with similar problems. Not enough damage taken vs self-healing equals immortality/near immortality. To much damage taken vs self-healing equals being to squishy to be viable. Non-percentage based mitigation leads to small viability sweet spots on the immortality curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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02-25-2017, 09:04 AMCafPow
the trick is .... that every tank should be able to tank kinda everything.
so ... well ... Balance is quite a Thing here.
yet, Paladins have better Defense, while Warriors can heal themselfs better. One could improve those Aspects, but then, the Balancing of Bosses would become impossible again.
And ... without a Healer, making them kinda useless ... well, that can't be the goal, considering that they want to do something else than DMG too... -
02-25-2017, 09:59 PMReynhartPercentage based max HP/healing received increase would do perfectly fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Just giving the healing boost to Defiance itself would have saved WAR from lot of crap in 2.0. -
02-26-2017, 12:39 AMUltimatecalibur-X% damage taken and +X% max hp/healing received are two sides of the same coin and are both forms of percentage based mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Thrill of Battle+Convalescence is effectively a -16.6% damage cooldown and Rampart is effectively a +25% MaxHP/healing received cooldown.
They could have made Inner Beast increase MaxHP/healing received by +25% and Vengeance a +42.8% MaxHP/healing received cooldown to the same end effect.
It would have prevented the conflict about using Wrath stacks, but the mitigation from the Inner Beast, Vengeance, and Storm's Path changes was needed also.Quote:
Just giving the healing boost to Defiance itself would have saved WAR from lot of crap in 2.0.
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02-26-2017, 04:27 AMReynhartYes, they are....yet, for the most part, all tanks are using the first side. WAR has only one CD working with its max HP...and Convalescence is not even a MRD skill...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
I'm not sure WAR really needed all of them. Especially it they really wanted PLD to be defined by its mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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02-26-2017, 10:47 AMShurrikhan
The problem is that you have two ends to tank value: personal scaling and reactive scaling. The first outperforms the second in outgeared content, and underperforms in progressive content.
In other words, the portion of your own stats, as dealt through vampirics like Life Surge, Bloodbath, Soul Eater, and Inner Beast will eventually outdo the portion of enemy stats reduced by percentile mitigation tools, at which point the only advantage to mitigation tools is, typically, better window control and one-shot resistance. And until then, the other will outdo it.
By "theming" a toolkit on purely one or the other, as ARR originally did with WAR and PLD, you niche the content to which they can be taken, e.g. progressive content and past content.
Making Warrior more dependent on its self-healing would be fine if and only if the resource that feeds that self-healing also depends on input (on enemies) such that the job is generally about as input-dependent as the others, with duly roughly equal output. -
02-27-2017, 11:37 PMThatusernameistakenI don't think these mitigation tools were needed, and that's actually part of my problem with Warrior currently. They have so many damage mitigation tools now that they just feel like a Paladin that does more damage. They could easily distinguish Warrior from the other tanks by giving them survivability through +X% healing received as someone said above and then converting their damage to healing. They would also need a larger health pool to compensate for the lack of mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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02-27-2017, 11:44 PMThatusernameistakenIn ARR, WAR had a much higher skill ceiling (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "input") in order to be as effective as Paladin, which I was completely fine with because while it took more skill to perform the same, a top tier Warrior was able to bring FAR more to the table that a top tier Paladin in content that didn't absolutely require a Paladin in the first place. I wish to God they would bring back the ARR feel of Warrior without breaking the game or making it obsolete in certain fights. And let's not forget that even today Warrior is obsolete in certain niche fights (Zurvan Ex 1-tank strat for example). So even the current design has its viability flaws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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02-28-2017, 04:16 AMUltimatecaliburThat is because Zurvan EX is badly designed fight not because Warrior has viability flaws. The only reason Paladin and Dark Knight can cheese Demon's Claw+Wave Cannon and Warrior can not is because Hallowed Ground and Living Dead are 10s and Holmgang is 6s and 10s is long enough to cover both Demon Claw and Wave Cannon. If the gap between Demon Claw and Wave Cannon was a few seconds longer none of the tanks would be able to cheese the mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken
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02-28-2017, 05:07 AMTouchandFeelI'm pretty sure what they meant by "input", since they designated "enemies", was the damage taken by the WAR as opposed to damage dealt by the WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken
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02-28-2017, 12:58 PMShurrikhanI tanked First Coil and most of my roulettes as Warrior in 2.0 (including many a 3-dps, Warrior-is-its-own-heals-damnit AK run). I'm aware of the differences. But no, that is not what I mean by "input", nor do I see how the skill ceiling was any higher in 2.0 than post-buff, even if I did prefer elements of the 2.0 gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken
What I mean by "input" is the values received that could, depending on toolkit, have an effect on output, such as one's stats, one's healing taken, one's mitigation dealt, and one's damage taken. Essentially, everything but "output". In this case though I'm specifically weighing external input (mob stats) vs. internal input (stats). [If you wish to look at it simply, input is environment-based, and output is self-and-party-based, as heals are necessary to the equation of Warrior's strengths.] If the tank does not scale well with external input (e.g. percentile of damage taken), then it can only be truly balanced for a thin transcient moment. Until that point, he is inferior in progression (or hard-hitting fights in general) because the tanks better benefiting from external input (those with more percentile mitigation, as opposed to the Warrior's flatter or personally-based self-healing) will have higher overall output; after that point, he will be overpowered in that his benefiting more greatly from his own gear, which exceeds the strength of the mobs being tanked, will outperform the benefits of greater use of the damage dealt by enemy mobs (who are now becoming obsolete).
Again, you can make it more reactive and less preparative, as it was in 2.0. You can also make it face more compromise and decisions therefrom, as it did in 2.0. But you probably won't be able to bring back the no-heals-required aspect, and you certainly can't afford to leave it as imbalanced over time as it was in 2.0. -
03-07-2017, 01:51 AMMoogly
Reading from you guys now I'm starting to understand why once I met a healer in DF that didnt want to heal our tank. He was saying that the tank could sustain himself only with self heals like bloodbath... Sadly he was kicked because at that moment that wasn't the case at all, but now I understand...
Was WAR so good at self healing back then that you didnt need a healer at all in lvling dungeons ? -
03-18-2017, 04:49 AMMrSmileySometimes yes, not an entire dungeon though as cd's don't always line up. Some bosses I solo'd after party wiped to mechanics. high damage bosses not so much but still XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Moogly