Zurvan, Soar, and the Community!

Why is it NOT ok that Soar can't be skipped, but it IS ok that people who CLAIM they never seen Soar be excused if they mess it up?

I, personally, just refuse to believe that players who have Zurvan on farm has never seen Soar.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Why is it NOT ok that Soar can't be skipped, but it IS ok that people who CLAIM they never seen Soar be excused if they mess it up?

I, personally, just refuse to believe that players who have Zurvan on farm has never seen Soar.

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Because anyone should have the gear necessary to skip soar at this point, fight is easier and faster with it skipped.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Because anyone should have the gear necessary to skip soar at this point, fight is easier and faster with it skipped.

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You can't skip soar, you can only skip the FIRST soar.

People still need to know how to do it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You can't skip soar, you can only skip the FIRST soar.

People still need to know how to do it.

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Technically you can by killing him before it.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Because anyone should have the gear necessary to skip soar at this point, fight is easier and faster with it skipped.

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That's not really answering the question!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...88/V1zUqaO.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...72/t0wImhK.png

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Originally Posted by Kxteel

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That diagram is extremely misleading because the battlefield is sideways for the soar patterns, not even 90° but like 80°... disturbing.

It is more quick kick someone one wait for another 5-10 minutes than extend the fight 1 minute... wait. Mathematics...

I don't understand why people want to avoid Soar, it's so easy to not die on it...
A guys in my party toldl everyone a trick that was really helping; "put a mark (ctrl + right mouse button) on minimap (for the A Pattern)"

I hope a patch will come soon so it'll not possible to avoid it, it would be fun ;D

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

I don't understand why people want to avoid Soar, it's so easy to not die on it...

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Because they like waving their DPS numbers in everyone else's face >w>

I get that this game is dps heavy, but good lord...

Maybe if EVERY fight still made people do mechanics (like Ramuh, Leviathan, T9), we won't have a problem much!

Soar isn't the problem really. It's the fact people run around like headless chickens with their tethers...

Soar is a slight variation on abilities we've seen from six years ago and continued to be used over a decade over in one form or another.
It's absolutely an indication someone is doing something wrong if you see Soar, but you be unable to execute the mechanic is laughably more embarrassing for anyone involved.

Yeah I have to admit, Soar is the least of the worries in Zurvan. Finding a group that can do tethers is the real kicker for me.

I only skip soar ironically.

Honestly, if you are not skipping the 1st soar one of two things is happening. 1. You are very under-geared as a group. 2. You are an under-skilled player and you don't understand your class mechanics and or job (or you are dead because you fail mechanics).

Get over it - learn to play the game. People know the Soar mechanic because you have to do it typically in the last phase anyways - skipping the first one just proves that you are not incompetent.

Skipping Soar isn't really 'DPS heavy' to begin with. It's pretty much just do your opener properly and you should get the boss HP low enough to skip by the time he gets to that point in his rotation. Even more so if you're bringing 5 DPS, otherwise it undoes the point of you bringing 5 DPS in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I get that this game is dps heavy, but good lord...

Maybe if EVERY fight still made people do mechanics (like Ramuh, Leviathan, T9), we won't have a problem much!

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This game is still tame compared to competing MMOs lol. Google Guildwards 2 pre-HoT bezerker meta or Aura Kingdom (aka Fantasy Frontier Online) and you will see what a DPS meta actually looks like. The hyperbole is real.

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Originally Posted by Aerilon

Honestly, if you are not skipping the 1st soar one of two things is happening. 1. You are very under-geared as a group. 2. You are an under-skilled player and you don't understand your class mechanics and or job (or you are dead because you fail mechanics).

Get over it - learn to play the game. People know the Soar mechanic because you have to do it typically in the last phase anyways - skipping the first one just proves that you are not incompetent.

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How about people may want to, you know, see the things the devs programmed to be seen by players in the game!

People don't get that Soar is only 1 or 2 patterns. The easy pattern, where the lines are all split up and your directions don't move, people tend to not mess up. It's the other pattern. All you need to do is explain it like this:

1) Split arena into "North and Easts" and "South and Wests."
2) Tank is always "North."
3) Tank always stands closest to the singular line going "NW to SE".
4) NW drops toward the South, watching where the Soar from "NE to SW" goes and adjusting to be as close as they can estimate.
5) SE adjusts up, being above the Soar going "NE to SW."
6) S adjusts to the Soar going "NW to SE," estimating as close as they can.
7) SW adjusts to the spot between "NW" and "S."
8) NE adjusts to the spot between "N" and "SE."


People constantly make the mistake of I just run to my cardinal now- you can't do that.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

How about people may want to, you know, see the things the devs programmed to be seen by players in the game!

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Soar will still be present in the last phase for the vast majority of groups. Not skipping the first Soar is still an indication of weak performance and/or low gear.

With this line of thinking, you might as well stop DPS entirely until you see the full rotation of every single phase.

The problem for competent people is not that Soar is a "hard" mechanic to execute. Seeing the mechanic slows any farm attempts by default, is an indication of slow runs in general (due to weak performance/DPS) and makes any attempt at competent parses null (for people who do that) when you're basically wasting seconds doing nothing.

Not skipping Soar is entirely fine if the party doesn't dictate it. But if the PF requirements do dictate it, then you'd best be able to perform at least an adequate opener.

Tethers kill people more than soar. I can't tell you how many farm parties have stupid wipes due to tethers.

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Originally Posted by Kxteel

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...88/V1zUqaO.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...72/t0wImhK.png

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That soar diagram is not good. Because it's not properly aligned with the directions. With it, you could think you could stand south and always be safe. You cannot.

This is a much better one. This is how it will look when Zurvan is being tanked in the center facing north. In other words: how all parties do it.

http://i.imgur.com/jZ0tQkV.png

NW is normally seen as the hardest spot but it's actually real easy once you know the trick to it. People always put A B C markers. A/C east or west and B south. For NW, you just have to stand directly across the marker for the west side whenever the ribbon pattern comes up. That will put you precisely where "6" is on the diagram and you'll be hugging the line whenever it pops up.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

How about people may want to, you know, see the things the devs programmed to be seen by players in the game!

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How about you still see the mechanic even if you skip the first one. LOL

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I, personally, just refuse to believe that players who have Zurvan on farm has never seen Soar.

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This is not true. They must have seen it while training because they didn't know how to manage their CDs & do their positions for the fight yet.

I've been to farm parties where they never skip the first Soar, yet we still farmed him.
People who complain about Soar are ones who did not train to do the mechanic or refuse to learn it.

If you are going to jump into a farm party you should know how to handle every single mechanic.

People just refuse to learn the mechanics, is all.
Soar is SO easy to learn and saying "but we SHOULD be able to skip it!" is absolutely NO excuse to not know how to do it, because a single mistake of a single person will lead to a wipe,
and that alone takes longer than soar would even if you did it every. single. time. It's ridiculous. You'd expect people to know how the mechanics of a fight work if they declare they can farm it.

The utter refusal to learn something extremely easy to make the run failproof just baffles me.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

The utter refusal to learn something extremely easy to make the run failproof just baffles me.

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"D-don't tell me how to play!"
"H-how about you pay for my sub, then you can tell me how to play!"

People just refuse to learn their rotation, that is all.
The opener is SO easy to learn and saying "but we SHOULD be able to do soar!" is absolutely NO excuse to not know how to do it, because a having low dps means having to do the second soar /the tank buster. It's ridiculous. You'd expect people to know how to play their job if they declare they can farm it. The utter refusal to learn something extremely easy to make the run failproof just baffles me.

It's unfortunate that they designed this fight with a skip threshold that's easily reached. I mean maybe they didn't factor in 5 dps 1 tank (I know competent groups can still skip with 2 tanks, but I'm generalising :P) but the fact that this threshold exists has made the fight so centralized about it.
I've seen farm groups that can kill it consistently - and still disband because some elitists who were out of position for the "2nd" soar, saved by the tank LB every time, were more concerned about the fact the 1st wasn't skipped than the fact that we just got 3 tokens back to back with no fuss. And speaking of the second Soar, that still exists unless you solo heal successfully, pretty much. Yet it can be somewhat trivialised by tank lb...somewhat.
It really should've been analysed better before they released it. Give more incentive to have a second tank. Make the follow up to Demon Claw break through immunities. Make the adds need to be kept separate to justify a second tank by making them share buffs with nearby enemies or something. Force Soar + Demon Claw to happen at certain % rather than move on without them.

But alas, we have what we have. I don't know if maybe some people get confused with the positional callouts since they aren't directly on those compass points - and as seen above there are several diagrams for this that aren't oriented well. Then again, you often see people call NW and go the complete opposite direction so...who knows. The fixation on Soar and dps is kind of bizarre since meteor tethers should be the biggest worry since a lot of PFs won't really communicate fixed positions or follow a rule like "go clockwise if your pair isn't behind you" or something...everyone just vaguely goes to whatever's closest to them at the time...which is sometimes okay if people spread around the boss beforehand....hrm. I dunno, they really should've designed the fight better, not that it fully justifies the community's response to it.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

People just refuse to learn their rotation, that is all.
The opener is SO easy to learn and saying "but we SHOULD be able to do soar!" is absolutely NO excuse to not know how to do it, because a having low dps means having to do the second soar /the tank buster. It's ridiculous. You'd expect people to know how to play their job if they declare they can farm it. The utter refusal to learn something extremely easy to make the run failproof just baffles me.

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Bad trolling there.
Standing in one pre-assigned place for 5 seconds is not the same level of difficulty as doing a correct lvl 60 rotation.
Also, even if all the dps do perfect dmg, if the tank doesn't keep aggro well or whatever, you end up with dead people who deal no dmg and will end up having to do soar anyways.
Relying on dps only is NEVER a failsafe strategy, it's the "let's rush and hope nothing goes wrong because we are f*cked otherwise" strategy.
If everyone knows how to do mechanics AND the dps is great, everything is fine.
If everyone only knows how to deal dmg, if anything goes wrong, it's a wipe.
If everyone only knows how to deal with mechanics, even if the dps is not enough, it's still not a wipe because slowly killing it is still killing it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Standing in one pre-assigned place for 5 seconds is not the same level of difficulty as doing a correct lvl 60 rotation.
Also, even if all the dps do perfect dmg, if the tank doesn't keep aggro well or whatever, you end up with dead people who deal no dmg and will end up having to do soar anyways.
Relying on dps only is NEVER a failsafe strategy, it's the "let's rush and hope nothing goes wrong because we are f*cked otherwise" strategy.
If everyone knows how to do mechanics AND the dps is great, everything is fine.
If everyone only knows how to deal dmg, if anything goes wrong, it's a wipe.
If everyone only knows how to deal with mechanics, even if the dps is not enough, it's still not a wipe because slowly killing it is still killing it.

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Sure, but those player who understand and play their class properly have no trouble dealing with mechanics like soar. Also if you can't skip soar in a farm party with 6 dps then something is really going wrong.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You can't skip soar, you can only skip the FIRST soar.

People still need to know how to do it.

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Yeah, that's not true. Kill it under like 6 mins and you'll not see soar at all

1. Soar skip with proper gear in't hard. Don't farm an extreme fight with ajob you can't play on a high level.

2. If you go single tank -> soar skip. No ifs or buts. The whole point of not going with 2 tanks is to skip soar.
Sticking to a one tank group without skip doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

Yeah, that's not true. Kill it under like 6 mins and you'll not see soar at all

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The whole killing it before 6 minutes is monumentally harder than skipping first soar. Skipping the first one requires a brain and a knowledge of how to opener. Skipping the 2nd one actually requires solid mechanics, good uptime and knowledge of how to maintain decent DPS over a long period of time while doing the above. This is the reason why its stupid to go full ham on skipping first soar then wiping to the 2nd one.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

1. Soar skip with proper gear in't hard. Don't farm an extreme fight with ajob you can't play on a high level.

2. If you go single tank -> soar skip. No ifs or buts. The whole point of not going with 2 tanks is to skip soar.
Sticking to a one tank group without skip doesn't make sense.

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But sadly not skipping soar is half the time not really the fault of the dps. It's the PLD sat there in shield oath with minimal damage going out and the 2 healers doing zero dps.

Here is the answer --

To skip soar, with the currently available gear even if you don't do Savage, all you need to do, especially if we're talking about solo-tank / solo-healer comps, is do a proper opener followed by you standard rotation.

That's all.

If you can't skip soar, it's a sign that you don't know your opener and don't know your rotation. For any player, that is really the ground-level basics of your job in EX content.

It's an EX-trial not EX-roulette. You should know your opener and rotation. Period.



To the other point about farm players not knowing about the first soar and demon claw, I'll just use my situation to explain.

I cleared Zurvan EX first day in maybe half an hour with my static. We farmed it ~20 times with a few sub-ins. We skipped soar every single time.

Later that week, while helping people clear, I encountered the first soar. I was a bit surprised and confused because that was the first time I'd seen it. Yea, I adjusted fine since I already knew how the mechanic worked but it was still a bit disorienting.

Recently, while bird farming, I was doing Zurvan in RF duty complete and not only did we see the first soar, but also the first demon claw because of how bad the DPS was. While I knew about the first soar, I had no idea that you could see demon claw there. Thankfully, the positioning of the boss was still recoverable.

Sometimes I watch weekly Savage clear streams on twitch and it feels like I'm watching entirely different fights. I see people doing the later phases of A9S that my static skipped week 1. I see people doing the later phases of A10S that my static skipped week 1. Their A11S mechanic rotation is something I haven't seen for ~4 months.

So that's how very good players can not know about certain mechanics. They aren't used to playing with bad players.

The top-tier of the raiding community is pretty insular. They rely mostly on friends, friends of friends, LSes, and sometimes their FC to fill groups for content and ensure a basic level of competency. You are not going to encounter that many top-tier players in random PFs or RFs.

tethers really do seem to be more of an issue than soar in my experience and its largely because people don't want to adjust their play for them. i've seen many a zurvan farm wipe because black mages didn't want to move when they had the tank tether. if you won't move when its crucial for you to do so because you want to push your dps then you really need to run the fight on something else.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

This is not true. They must have seen it while training because they didn't know how to manage their CDs & do their positions for the fight yet.

I've been to farm parties where they never skip the first Soar, yet we still farmed him.
People who complain about Soar are ones who did not train to do the mechanic or refuse to learn it.

If you are going to jump into a farm party you should know how to handle every single mechanic.

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Which goes back to one of the reasons I asked my question, because those who have it on farm say they NEVER seen Soar in no shape or form, but get upset when the first Soar appears. This person, who "never seen Soar", seem to die to the first one when it's NOT the X-Shape.

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Originally Posted by Texa

tethers really do seem to be more of an issue than soar in my experience and its largely because people don't want to adjust their play for them. i've seen many a zurvan farm wipe because black mages didn't want to move when they had the tank tether. if you won't move when its crucial for you to do so because you want to push your dps then you really need to run the fight on something else.

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Not defending them, but I just want to ask: Can you blame them for it, when the group is putting so much focus on players pushing dps?

It went from wanting to skip Soar to overall clearing the entire fight quickly.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

*SNIP*

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I like your points. I would like to note that statics almost ALWAYS do better in content Week 1 than those without a static and need to pug.