Do we need more "Demon Walls" in the dungeons?

Good day

If I remember correct, the Amdapor keep- is the only dungeon with the real wiping boss- Demon Wall (falling and dps check on bees). But all other dungeons till the present days are just some mindless corridors without any, even simple challenge

I make a request to make MORE 4-dungeons with the real wipe mechanics

Thank you

LIMIT BREAK THE LEFT BEE

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

LIMIT BREAK THE LEFT BEE

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that was an awesome time)

did you really need to start a new thread? as you have an active one about the same dam thing?

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Originally Posted by Edewen

did you really need to start a new thread? as you have an active one about the same dam thing?

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No, it are different ideas. Dungeons can have another structure, but still can not have any "demon wall', you know?

Doesnt the book demon guy in gubal have open ledges you can fall off? And when it was launched, a lot of people failed the bee corridor part of arboretum. The final boss in neverreap is on a(fairly large, but still) pedestal and even uses knockbacks. They are still using these ideas, just not every dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

Doesnt the book demon guy in gubal have open ledges you can fall off? And when it was launched, a lot of people failed the bee corridor part of arboretum. The final boss in neverreap is on a(fairly large, but still) pedestal and even uses knockbacks. They are still using these ideas, just not every dungeon.

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They are used very NOT OFTEN, but have you ever fall in Neverreap? The location is huge and you need to be the total idiot to fall because of the push. So, yes, it exists, but it is too "weak"

Me personally? Ive never fallen from any of these ledges(including demon wall - titan and leviathan have dropped me enough times to more then make up for this). Ive seen other people do it in each location. This feels, to me, like the sort of trick you cant use too often without it becoming tedious or boring.

The only reason why the demon wall was so hard because of the lack of gear at the time, with gear players simply ignore mechanics, with the dungeon now they are coming at a time when most players out gear them even when first introduced.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

Me personally? Ive never fallen from any of these ledges(including demon wall - titan and leviathan have dropped me enough times to more then make up for this). Ive seen other people do it in each location. This feels, to me, like the sort of trick you cant use too often without it becoming tedious or boring.

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How the mechanic, which make you to be in focus be boring?

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Originally Posted by Xyno

How the mechanic, which make you to be in focus be boring?

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A mechanic that forces period checks can be boring if it causes you to disengage from other actions of interest in order to prioritize it absolutely, rather than matching those actions to it. Sudden death mechanics tend to do that. In this case it's a periodic one, so those who can count down in their head or recognize the telegraph perform the mechanic with laughable ease—it becomes a "non-mechanic", unnoticed—but those who cannot will find themselves forgoing a hefty portion of gameplay just to deal with it.

All mechanics are limitations. The question is whether or not the window in that limitation is large enough to feel like it better frames the overall challenges of optimal combat in that fight, or so short that it feels as if it limits those challenges (e.g. there is no way to really push dps because of that window, which will often then affect different classes in an unbalanced manner).

I missed out on the bee enemies that were in Amapador Keep before nerf.
Were they really that bad? Or was it another "Plz nerf weeping city" thing where it just required you to turn away from netflix for a second to understand the mechanics?

It was a sad day when they removed the gnats from Demon Wall. :(

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Originally Posted by Frizze

Me personally? Ive never fallen from any of these ledges(including demon wall - titan and leviathan have dropped me enough times to more then make up for this). Ive seen other people do it in each location. This feels, to me, like the sort of trick you cant use too often without it becoming tedious or boring.

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you mustve never done AK in 2,0. Those bees were really good at getting people knocked off.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It was a sad day when they removed the gnats from Demon Wall. :(

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its amazing how 2 adds would turn a dungeon into a 50/50 clear rate. A long time friend of mine who used to main healer had a phrase made for her "I dont always medica 2, but when i do, its when the bees spawn in demon wall"

What if such dungeons with a real wiping bosses will be in the EX-roulette? Right now this roulette has no difference with other dungeons, EXPERT doesnt reflect its meaning

the problem is gear.

These expert dungeons need to be accessible to all casual players and therefore fall 30-40 ilvls under the general raider. The only way they could fix this would be a sync from the start to a minimum ilvl.

lvl 60 dungeon roulette could let it choose any of the dungeons and provide the same tomes as expert does now.
Expert could be forced to sync to minimum ilvl and provide double tomes.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

the problem is gear.

These expert dungeons need to be accessible to all casual players and therefore fall 30-40 ilvls under the general raider. The only way they could fix this would be a sync from the start to a minimum ilvl.

lvl 60 dungeon roulette could let it choose any of the dungeons and provide the same tomes as expert does now.
Expert could be forced to sync to minimum ilvl and provide double tomes.

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i dont see any problem for dungeons for ex-roulette to be harder and reward better (120 tomes, for example). Want to farm faster- go there, dont want- go to usual 60 level roulette and get only 70 tomes (for example)

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

you mustve never done AK in 2,0. Those bees were really good at getting people knocked off.

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So knocking off is what made these bees dangerous?

Gee, it really seems like "difficulty" in this game is entirely based on the degree at which healers are circumvented via un-cleansable debuffs and instant death.

To answer the question, no i didnt play back then. I first heard about the game around the launch of HW. So my guess, based on what im reading, is that the demon wall used to spawn adds and his repel ability would therefore sometimes trigger while you were fighting them and not facing the wall - which would increase the likelihood that you were facing the wrong way and sent flying off the edge. Combine that with the final sting mechanic we still see with some bees, and the fight becomes more of a nail biter. Thats certainly a more technical fight, but is it more interesting? Im not so sure.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So knocking off is what made these bees dangerous?
Gee, it really seems like "difficulty" in this game is entirely based on the degree at which healers are circumvented via un-cleansable debuffs and instant death.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

To answer the question, no i didnt play back then. I first heard about the game around the launch of HW. So my guess, based on what im reading, is that the demon wall used to spawn adds and his repel ability would therefore sometimes trigger while you were fighting them and not facing the wall - which would increase the likelihood that you were facing the wrong way and sent flying off the edge. Combine that with the final sting mechanic we still see with some bees, and the fight becomes more of a nail biter. Thats certainly a more technical fight, but is it more interesting? Im not so sure.

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They werent Bees, they were Gnats, so they didnt have final sting (this confused me my 1st run as well.)
They had an AoE that paralyzed people. (IF i remember correctly, this happened twice, when they spawned, and when they were left alive too long.)
They hit harder than the wall itself, and if a tank wasnt ready to snap aggro, or you had a PLD, they usually nearly killed the healer the moment they spawned. (Until they buffed flash threat and made flash not be a 3.5 GCD)
If you were paralyzed, you couldnt get into the right spot for repel, or you got hit with the wieght debuff from side AoEs, also hindering your ability to get to gnats to kill them, or to get into the right spot for repels.

The gnats werent even remotely a challenge.

You could ignore them, as once the tank had hate, you could go back to fighting the boss, and esuna the paralyze effect.

The healer woudl actually have to heal then, as the gnats did most of the dmg to the tank, where demon wall barely touched a tank.
(If your healer didnt DPS, then this didnt effect your chances of beating the boss)

The real challenge, was that the boss was a soft DPS check.

You could have sh*t gear, and i do mean that, as my friends were still in AF gear, PLD MT, and WHm who didnt DPS, and still beat the DPS check, if you just did your rotations reasonably. (Didnt even have to be perfect.)

If your gear was i90 (highest at the time) but you failed to do your rotation, you would fail the DPS check, unless your tank and healer DPSed, then you could still be carried through the DPS check.

It was a well designed soft DPS check, to make sure DPS did their rotations right.

Falling off was less about the adds, and more so the placement u need to stand for repel was just weird, and ppl didnt get it right away.

People did blame the adds, as a lot of DPS tend to ignore adds by default, until they wipe at least once to them.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

To answer the question, no i didnt play back then.

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Why not just watch a video how it was in the early days?

https://youtu.be/NhGxgHoKYzU?t=3m10s

The nerf was rather huge, lol
I miss those days though, Demon Wall and also doing Relic for first time in Sub i90 having to eat vitality food to have some chance of surviving stomps from Titan on Bard. Good times

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Originally Posted by Maero

The nerf was rather huge, lol
I miss those days though, Demon Wall and also doing Relic for first time in Sub i90 having to eat vitality food to have some chance of surviving stomps from Titan on Bard. Good times

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there was food w/o VIT, just secondary stats?

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

there was food w/o VIT, just secondary stats?

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I'm guessing the meaning was "food of least desirable secondary stats, but current-tier vitality bonuses, which can thereby be purchased very cheaply to inflate one's health".

Or that's just what I mean when I tell people I need to buy vit food because we don't have a SCH/Noct and raid damage would otherwise kill me.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

I missed out on the bee enemies that were in Amapador Keep before nerf.
Were they really that bad? Or was it another "Plz nerf weeping city" thing where it just required you to turn away from netflix for a second to understand the mechanics?

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They had large AoE stuns; you had to move them into the corner of the inner rectangle, almost into the wall, in order to provide a safe space to dodge if you were late to spawn them, and then either outer corner during the last section before the wall-squish. That or your WHM would Holy like a boss and your tank would stun one and your melee another. But so few did... So few did...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm guessing the meaning was "food of least desirable secondary stats, but current-tier vitality bonuses, which can thereby be purchased very cheaply to inflate one's health".

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Don't forget: In early days of the game, you lost the food buff after death.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They had large AoE stuns; you had to move them into the corner of the inner rectangle, almost into the wall, in order to provide a safe space to dodge if you were late to spawn them, and then either outer corner during the last section before the wall-squish. That or your WHM would Holy like a boss and your tank would stun one and your melee another. But so few did... So few did...

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That sucks, that sounds like a fun mechanic to overcome with a few simple steps to do.
Demon walls in FF games were always nasty but this one now just feels like you're hitting a literal wall cause of how boring it is.

When did they get taken out? 2.1?

What about Pharos Sirius tho

this was nerfed as being too hard, which actually translates as "if you blindly go ham you will die". This was too tough for the majority of the playerbase who only have one speed: blind ham. so had to be nerfed

same with steps of faith. "what's this? I'm required to read the instructions and click something? we wipe if we only go blind ham? wut? nerf pls". and lo, the nerf was granted

so yes, anything that requires you do anything beyond pew pew, is too hard

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

What about Pharos Sirius tho

this was nerfed as being too hard, which actually translates as "if you blindly go ham you will die". This was too tough for the majority of the playerbase who only have one speed: blind ham. so had to be nerfed

same with steps of faith. "what's this? I'm required to read the instructions and click something? we wipe if we only go blind ham? wut? nerf pls". and lo, the nerf was granted

so yes, anything that requires you do anything beyond pew pew, is too hard

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Well to be honest some of my runs in pharos I run into people that don't know the mechanics or their play isn't so good so we still wipe to the explodey boss or the zu eggs.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

That sucks, that sounds like a fun mechanic to overcome with a few simple steps to do.

When did they get taken out? 2.1?

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Fairly sure it was 2.1 at the ilevel of the dungeon drops was reduced as well to make the dungeon inline with Wanderers Place while the new dungeons got gear from AK.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

That sucks, that sounds like a fun mechanic to overcome with a few simple steps to do.
Demon walls in FF games were always nasty but this one now just feels like you're hitting a literal wall cause of how boring it is.

When did they get taken out? 2.1?

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2.1 or maybe a bit after, I think?

It wasn't until the dungeon was irrelevant for most players (no longer the weekly currency farm, and not the spammable-of-choice for uncapped currency either), but I remember feeling like I was missing something important, especially as a WHM or MNK/DRG when I finally got rouletted back in to a bee-less AK.

Personally, pre-nerf Pharos had my favorite boss fights. Being in a group that allowed me to hold Greased Lightning III throughout an entire Brayflox HM run was probably the closest in intensity (albeit a totally different style thereof) since then.

EDIT: God I'd love to see an Amdapor Keep (and Lost City) Savage that requires some cross-role intelligence/awareness for a change >.>

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm guessing the meaning was "food of least desirable secondary stats, but current-tier vitality bonuses, which can thereby be purchased very cheaply to inflate one's health".

Or that's just what I mean when I tell people I need to buy vit food because we don't have a SCH/Noct and raid damage would otherwise kill me.

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Exactly this ^
Like i said stomps would always kill me back then in titan as i did not have full i90 gear because.... it took ages to get
Sure the food did not help by a huge amount, but it was something, lol

AK was actually a pretty huge challenge to consistently farm when the game first came out. Was lots of fun.