Question to healers regarding Limit Break and Duty Finder

I am just curious if my fellow healers use LB when they notice the DPS members of the group save it/don't use it [when available]?

As I continue to try and optimize my role, this is something I noticed after getting into the habit of letting my tank get pretty low before hitting them with Benediction/Lustrate when these abilities are available. I do this more as SCH than I do WHM since Bene is one-time cast with a really long CD, but lately if I notice the DPS aren't using the LB and saving it, I will DPS like crazy and burn it up for a free big heal and then continue to DPS until I actually have to burn MP on healing.

I am posting this because I usually get frowned upon for doing this, but it just drives me crazy when I see the LB meter glowing in my face pull after pull, after pull, after pull. It is usually a tank who actually thanks me for doing this^^

That certainly is a novel concept to me. Yes, the limit break is generally kept until the end, as I have seen commonly in parties. I typically use it on the first boss as monk, or at the very opening of the second boss, so that the first bar is full by the time the last boss encounter begins. This is sort of a rarely spoken thing to me, as if you use the healing limit break during a pull, you need to be sure that the DPS are not using it on bosses, and that the first bar will be full by the last boss, as people *will* use it on the last boss (... I hope), so it is a very difficult situation to assess in a random party. I certainly wouldn't hate you if you did that in a group I am part in, *if* I see why it has been used, but it can be a sketchy thing to assess when there's no real communication.

Sounds like a waste to me.......I'd not like to see this ever done.

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Originally Posted by Holy-chan

That certainly is a novel concept to me. Yes, the limit break is generally kept until the end, as I have seen commonly in parties. I typically use it on the first boss as monk, or at the very opening of the second boss, so that the first bar is full by the time the last boss encounter begins. This is sort of a rarely spoken thing to me, as if you use the healing limit break during a pull, you need to be sure that the DPS are not using it on bosses, and that the first bar will be full by the last boss, as people *will* use it on the last boss (... I hope), so it is a very difficult situation to assess in a random party. I certainly wouldn't hate you if you did that in a group I am part in, *if* I see why it has been used, but it can be a sketchy thing to assess when there's no real communication.

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That is just it. It is typically saved until the last boss, and it is used to finish off the boss. I am not totally knowledgeable here, but assuming an LB1 bar fills quickly, how many times would it do so from start of the dungeon to the final boss? Twice?. Three times if including during the final boss? That is a pretty big loss if it used only once throughout the entire dungeon IME. You can best believe I will burn it up if I deem it fit. I am a healer. I have the power to do so! :p

I don't think I would do that. In dungeons I tend to leave limit breaks for the appropriate DPS: usually melee DPS, but sometimes there's a boss who's a group. So my rule of thumb is: when tanking, almost never LB; when healing, never LB (except you can LB3 to save a raid); when DPSing, I can LB to kill the first or second boss, but it doesn't really matter, and then definitely LB to kill the final boss. On the first or second boss, I try to watch for how the party is doing. If we're just crushing it, then it doesn't matter, but if the party's a mess, finishing the fight quicker can be wise.

But I don't think I would ever LB1 or LB2 as a healer in duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That is just it. It is typically saved until the last boss, and it is used to finish off the boss. I am not totally knowledgeable here, but assuming an LB1 bar fills quickly, how many times would it do so from start of the dungeon to the final boss? Twice?. Three times if including during the final boss? That is a pretty big loss if it used only once throughout the entire dungeon IME. You can best believe I will burn it up if I deem it fit. I am a healer. I have the power to do so! :p

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It differs from dungeon to dungeon, but from my own experience running The Aery about a hundred times because Nidhogg's card just refused to drop for me (I'm a Triple Triad card collector at heart :p), the limit break was not yet full on the first boss, and using it to finish off the second boss meant it was not full by the time the final boss battle begins - about three quarters of the way through. So, I'd use it at the very start of the second boss fight, and the limit break bar was either full or nearly so that we'd get an LB2 on the last boss by the time the final boss battle begins.

But it really differs from dungeon to dungeon. I can't exactly tell how much it does, I typically don't run the same thing much in a short time span, as this gets mindnumbing for me.

This being said, I have seen a fair amount of AoE limit breaks during large pulls in level 51-57 dungeons (and Aurum Vale) in random duty finder parties (therefore, without any prior agreement to do so), where you don't overgear everything by 50+ item levels and the limit break actually shaves off a good amount of time in those situations - moreso than using it on a boss. I oftentimes will commendate those people when used right, as it breaks out of the established norms, but is a good decision.

This being said (looks like I use this expression a lot), I ran Sohm Al yesterday evening as WHM, and being the ever aggressive WHM that I am, I used Holy one too many times and ended up completely dry on MP - a mistake I have done on more than one occasion in non-50, non-60 dungeons. I wished I had access to the healer limit break to heal the group at that time (even if I had been scolded for it), but it was before the first boss and we didn't have the bar filled yet. We lived, but it was very, very close.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I am just curious if my fellow healers use LB when they notice the DPS members of the group save it/don't use it [when available]?


I am posting this because I usually get frowned upon for doing this, but it just drives me crazy when I see the LB meter glowing in my face pull after pull, after pull, after pull. It is usually a tank who actually thanks me for doing this^^

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The concept is sound however the numbers don't add up, the reason you are getting told off is because your personal DPS during the no-healing window isn't substantial enough to warrant losing a DPS LB1/LB2 to compensate after. DPS usually save it if the next phase is uncertain so they retain it for Tank LB and/or Healer LB3. Other times, its held for a fraction of the time because the DPS responsible for LB are going through an opener. If neither of the above apply, then the rest of your party are either scrubs who wouldn't realize the impact of the LB or they are so good that its irrelevant how LB is used.

If you are looking to explore non-DPS ways of using LB. Consider Tank LB2 during a heal check phase and getting everyone to go full ham on DPS, the Tank LB2 lasts for an absurd amount of time so with an exceptional 8 man party, you can actually output more damage than what the equivalent melee LB2 would provide. This was the common alternative LB strat for A8S during prog when we were pushing that tornado.

I've never really found a reason to use it. While this may seem like it's nice to use, it's probably a lot more optimal for the DPS to use on bosses. Generally in DF most wanna rush through it in the quickest way possible. In most pulls you should be able to carry out a fair amount of DPS and heal when needed if you're with a decent group.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That is just it. It is typically saved until the last boss, and it is used to finish off the boss.

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This is something i never got and probably will never get... if your are running in a grp where everybody knows at least the mechanics - LB3 should be fired out as soon as possible, there is no reason to keep it for the last 10%... especially in raids and savage is a chance that you'll gain bar 1 or even 2 back after using lvl3 in the first place. Waiting for the "fatality" move without a reason is the "real" waste of LB imo.

@topic: yeah seems unusual to me as well but i like different playstyles but be aware that most of the DDs will be confused or even get mad at you without explanation why you are doing this. At least most of the comm got used to use caster LB on trash mobs as well on speed runs - especially if you only have caster/range dds in your party, killing hugh trashmobs on the fly is better than saving it for the boss. Blm and Smn f.e. are loosing to much dps or connection to their rota if they use LB at all and half of the melee-lb power isn't really worth it in most of the times.

Honestly, I've found the better option is to pick a DPS and call out for them to limit when you feel it's necessary. This means either having a melee use it on bosses (as mentioned above, try not to FINISH off the second boss with it, or it'll be rather low going into the final boss where it can build up to another bar), or having a caster use it on packs of monsters during large pulls (generally the better option IMO if large pulls are being done: Adds up to more damage overall, and large pulls are actually more dangerous than bosses typically). Ranged DPS are in kind of a weird position where they're SORTA AoE, but may not hit an entire pack with their line, and do less damage to a boss than a melee's single-target.

The highest damage use of a limit break is to AoE a trash pull. If these potencies are still current, and there are at least four targets, a caster LB1 will outdamage a melee LB2. If there are seven targets, caster LB1 outdamages melee LB3.

Therefore, a ranged DD should BigShot/Skyshard the largest pack of mobs in the dungeon if you want to use the LB to greatest effect.



On the subject of using a healer LB to gain more nuking time, it would only be worth it if you could manage to do 5000 potency of damage in the time bought by the LB. This would require two Holies/Gravities on about 16 targets, or three Holies/Gravities on about 10 targets. As the LB1 only restores 25% HP, I have trouble believing that it could buy you enough time to cast three or four more Holies/Gravities in excess of the ones you can already cast with Swiftcast and stuns. It would certainly not be worth it to healer LB to buy nuke time if you're casting anything other than Holy/Gravity.

Having a BRD/MCH using FoeRequiem/Hypercharge to boost your magic damage would make it easier for you to reach those numbers, of course, but in that case, the BRD/MCH should be the one LBing anyway, not the healer.

It varies between dungeons, but for most level 50 and 60 stuff it's usually best to do enormous pulls and caster LB1 them. If you think of the whole dungeon as one big HP bar, a caster LB1 on 10-15 targets does far more damage than a melee LB1/LB2 on bosses.

As for healer LBs, traditionally they're not used outside of 8/24-man content, where the LB3's Raise can sometimes prevent a wipe (certainly more often since 3.4 improved its effects). I definitely see dungeon runs where nobody'll use the LB at all though, in which case your method is definitely better than nothing. You'll probably continue to get a lot of heat for it, though. Many players have very strong opinions regarding LB use, despite the fact that so many melees will waste them on the last few percents of a boss.

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Originally Posted by seekified

Many players have very strong opinions regarding LB use, despite the fact that so many melees will waste them on the last few percents of a boss.

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yeah thats what i said... why do so many player thing it's the best use for LB3... on the last few percents? its not Mortal Kombat...

oh after i checked the wiki Rongway linked above i'll remember the usage of healer lb2 on some raids i did in the past to actually raise mp for reviewed healer/caster in emergency-situations. but this should be an exception in the end ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

yeah thats what i said... why do so many player thing it's the best use for LB3... on the last few percents? its not Mortal Kombat...

oh after i checked the wiki Rongway linked above i'll remember the usage of healer lb2 on some raids i did in the past to actually raise mp for reviewed healer/caster in emergency-situations. but this should be an exception in the end ^^

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If the group is really shaky / I'm expecting chaos at the end of the boss, I will request that people hold LB3 until we're sure danger has passed. I find it's a somewhat common situation in the third/final boss of the 24 mans.. I had many wipes in World of Darkness because DPS limit break was used when it filled, then people totally screwed up the new meteor phase. Tank or heal LB could save it at that point.

yeah im with ya regarding the healer lb in new content or savage training. but in df or casual farm runs you'll get a feeling if your grp is capable of using it as dps-increase or hold it as backup pretty fast. yesterday i laughed out loud after a random Nin used the LB3 right after maximum and got flamed hard to hold it back... we were more than fine... hots, noc, and full lp on the whole grp though... i just can't get used to "it always have to be the finishing move" q.q

edit: oh and yay now where you mention WoD – i noticed much more wipes these days in ct1-3 and coils than in newer content too... cause half of the player base didn't even know the old mechanics, thinking they can just rush through with their awesome (capped) gear... and we don't have to handle with jump potions yet... will be even worse with 4.0 ^^'

Once during the last boss of Aurum Vale I went OOM and we were all about to die - But the DPS hadn't used the LB yet so I popped it, healed everyone to full, and tried to do as much DPS as my mana would allow. Luckily we made it through and I was applauded for my use of the Limit Break, so yes - it has its purposes - But I don't use it unless the party is in a dire situation where I won't be able to heal them before they die without it. Using it when that isn't the case seems silly, since you can just order a dps to use it and they usually will, and that shortens the fight.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Just to be clear, I am aware that healer LB isn't the most optimal use in four man content and a caster LB on a huge trash pull would be better, if not the best use of it. That is why I get so frustrated when they save it. Drives me batty. But I will use the suggestion to call for it from the appropriate DPS.

I just don't want it to go to waste. I'll still use it though if the group is in trouble and a DPS LB won't do much to save the day.

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Originally Posted by Neela

This is something i never got and probably will never get... if your are running in a grp where everybody knows at least the mechanics - LB3 should be fired out as soon as possible, there is no reason to keep it for the last 10%... especially in raids and savage is a chance that you'll gain bar 1 or even 2 back after using lvl3 in the first place. Waiting for the "fatality" move without a reason is the "real" waste of LB imo.

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Usually the last phase of the boss is the most dangerous, and it makes sense to me to use the LB to minimise the most dangerous phase.

Much better to just ask for the DDs to use it as soon as it's up in 4 person content. Melee LB on boss and caster (or ranged, if there's no caster) perhaps on big trash pulls (it seems to be a DPS loss to use caster / ranged LB1 on single target boss).

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Thanks for the feedback guys. Just to be clear, I am aware that healer LB isn't the most optimal use in four man content and a caster LB on a huge trash pull would be better, if not the best use of it. That is why I get so frustrated when they save it. Drives me batty. But I will use the suggestion to call for it from the appropriate DPS.

I just don't want it to go to waste. I'll still use it though if the group is in trouble and a DPS LB won't do much to save the day.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a simple AoE heal provides way more healing than healer LB 1?

Just be passive aggressive and cast->cancel LB repeatedly until they get the hint.

If you're the top DPS in the party (yes, this does happen as healer, depressingly often), and they aren't using it, I see zero problem with it.

I can see why the party wouldn't like it though, but I've also seen MNKs get chewed out for not letting the DRG LB. Anything that irritates the party can result in a kick (including DPSing as a healer, if they're those sorts of players), so that is a risk you should acknowledge.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

If you're the top DPS in the party

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If you're outputing the most DPS, it's even more of a waste for you to use it.

I use the LB in dungeons as tank/healer just to annoy the DPS that try to use it as an 'epic' finisher. Tired of seeing the boss go under 5% and you haven't used the LB yet.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

If you're outputing the most DPS, it's even more of a waste for you to use it.

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But it's pretty!!!

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Originally Posted by Rongway

If you're outputing the most DPS, it's even more of a waste for you to use it.

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Completely true, but by performing so shittily, they relinquish their right to complain.

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Originally Posted by DuskTS

I use the LB in dungeons as tank/healer just to annoy the DPS that try to use it as an 'epic' finisher. Tired of seeing the boss go under 5% and you haven't used the LB yet.

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Nothing like finishing the boss with the AST flashbang

Monks or Dragoons typically hold off limit break for buff reasons. If it doesn't one-shot the boss, you'll likely lose Blood of the Dragon or Greased Lightning but still have to continue attacking. As a Dragoon main, I'll go through my combo enough to double up BotD before touching LB. Another reason, at least in 24 man raids and even Savage? They are parising. Limit Break is a huge personal DPS loss since you're animation locked for 10ish seconds. Chances are a lot of people you get who don't LB are raiders used to holding it for either specific points or near the very end of a fight.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Monks or Dragoons typically hold off limit break for buff reasons. If it doesn't one-shot the boss, you'll likely lose Blood of the Dragon or Greased Lightning but still have to continue attacking.

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Unless there are other interuptions, I can confirm you that you retain Greased Lightning III throughout the level 3 Limit Break as monk. At least, you do at level 60 where you have better skill speed - I don't recall for sure about level 50 content.

Since I don't like people touching my LB3 in progression or sloppy 24-man raids, I usually don't touch their LB in dungeons or trials. Let them have it so they let me have mine.

If I see DPS not using LB during the fights, I passive-aggressively use it once the final boss of a dungeon is down. I don't do it during bc I get no DPS out of it and I'm a SCH so I'm hardly ever healing during dungeons :P

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a simple AoE heal provides way more healing than healer LB 1?

Just be passive aggressive and cast->cancel LB repeatedly until they get the hint.

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I dunno. I've never used healer LB1, Only LB2 and LB3. I always figured much like you that the 25% restoration isn't even worth it unless for some reason I am OOM, and the boss has just a little bit more health than we do. But I also always carry hi-elixers for such situations. I may have given off the impression that I am using it as a free heal. It's definitely a benefit for just me, but the frustration has more to do with DPS who don't use it, or save it more than what's necessary. In these cases, it is always very tempting for me to allow HP bars to drop more than my usual threshold to continue to DPS and then pop it.

Since I don't really play DPS to the extent I do my healers, I am not fully aware of their LB management. But I posted the thread here to see if there were like-minded or opposing healers to this method. It is never an intention for me to purposely set off the members of those I group with.

I also wish I could LB more :( sshhh! don't tell anyone

Just thought I'd post this from my most recent roulette. I'm telling you guys. This happens ALL the time *ramble ramble*:

I called for the DPS LB twice during the encounter. We have a caster to boot :|

http://i.imgur.com/dv7z8Tm.png?1

Ahhhh, screw it! Pikachu!!!

http://i.imgur.com/TG0wOaC.png

As a healer main myself, the time we use rez is if most of the party is dead, and you can't rez them all normally. If we use the lb for any other purpose, it's pretty much a waste.
Some people in 24man raids save the LB for the healer, just in case of a wipe.

Except for pvp! Healer LB in pvp is great, each individual player gets their own LB, and healer LB is used to heal after an aoe LB, or when your party is covered in Dots and would probably die/you OOM before being able to heal them.

Not really addressed to healers but to DPS. Saving the limit break for the final blow is kind of a waste.

Fun fact: Two level 1 limit breaks do the same damage as One level 2 Limit Break.

If you are melee dps in duty finder you should be using the limit break at the very start of the final boss. Most groups won't see the second bar fill up all the way and even if it did you could just use a level 1 lb again for the same cumulative damage.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Just thought I'd post this from my most recent roulette. I'm telling you guys. This happens ALL the time *ramble ramble*:

I called for the DPS LB twice during the encounter. We have a caster to boot :|

http://i.imgur.com/dv7z8Tm.png?1

Ahhhh, screw it! Pikachu!!!

http://i.imgur.com/TG0wOaC.png

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There's a psychological effect known as the "Bystander effect". Essentially, if you ask a group of people to help, chances are none of them will help and instead wait for someone else to. As the group becomes larger, this effect becomes more pronounced. As we see here though, the effect can even happen with as little as 2 individuals. This is why whenever I ask DPS to use a limit break, I will pick a specific party member and ask them by name to do so to cut out the diffusion of responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

There's a psychological effect known as the "Bystander effect". Essentially, if you ask a group of people to help, chances are none of them will help and instead wait for someone else to. As the group becomes larger, this effect becomes more pronounced. As we see here though, the effect can even happen with as little as 2 individuals. This is why whenever I ask DPS to use a limit break, I will pick a specific party member and ask them by name to do so to cut out the diffusion of responsibility.

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Gah! Now I feel like it was my fault. One player was new to the instance and asked how the fight went down, and I broke it down, and this was a perfect opportunity to let the BLM know to LB2 when the bars were filled.

I'm glad you mentioned it though, and I will definitely put it to use the next time. The other two members were mentors, can I blame them??

totally kidding :p

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Gah! Now I feel like it was my fault. One player was new to the instance and asked how the fight went down, and I broke it down, and this was a perfect opportunity to let the BLM know to LB2 when the bars were filled.

I'm glad you mentioned it though, and I will definitely put it to use the next time. The other two members were mentors, can I blame them??

totally kidding :p

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Nah, I wouldn't say it's your fault. You were at least more proactive than they were, and it's not immediately obvious that asking a single person to do something is better than asking multiple people.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That is just it. It is typically saved until the last boss,

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If it wasn't used on the first boss, and I'm playing a ranged dps and the next pack is a large pull, I'm going to be using my Limit Break on that pack.