Stormblood or 3.55+ feature

I think with all the limitations being lifted via PS3 being dropped, I\\'d like to have an expansion on the dye system. I\\'m talking about multiple dyes for one piece at a time. More colors ...etc). I think now is the perfect time to implement it in 3.55 and if it works follow through on past gear as well as future gear. Same with weapons. What do you guys think?

I think when asked about that during the fanfest their answer was "I think we'll need PS5 for that."

I really don't see why we need a PS5 for that, really.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think when asked about that during the fanfest their answer was "I think we'll need PS5 for that."

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that's pretty silly. DCUO has a 3 color dye system, and they had that on the PS3. That's even a free-to-play MMO.

I'm not sure how the development works, but I don't get why having multiple dyes would be so hard.

I'm sure someone here will try their hardest to explain it to me though.

Something I want to see changed is the removal of zones. I know it won't ever happen but I'd like all the zones connected as a seamless landscape. All of Black Shroud as one giant open map for example or all of Thanalan. The only time you should be zoning is if you change Regions of course.

What they really should do is to implement a wardrope system in the game and bake the dye UI into it. My retainers, even the extra one can only store so much items, mainly gear.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think when asked about that during the fanfest their answer was "I think we'll need PS5 for that."

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It's lazyness. They don't want to go back and re edit gear sets.

it's either have gear with multiple dye slots or have new content. which would you rather have? the reason the Alexandrian 270 gear wasn't dyeable at first was because it was either have that or different looks than the prototype gear. there wasn't time for both.

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Originally Posted by seraf

Something I want to see changed is the removal of zones. I know it won't ever happen but I'd like all the zones connected as a seamless landscape. All of Black Shroud as one giant open map for example or all of Thanalan. The only time you should be zoning is if you change Regions of course.

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Maybe, but the zoning I want to see gone is the ones in the cities. Specially at Limsa and Ul'dah.

I believe the reason for that is, each set of dyed gear is a whole different mesh. So for multiple dyes they'd need to make like... 150 different copies of it. Not to mention the memory needs of storing all the possible variations.They didn't make it so its a simple pigmentation adjust function. I bleive they're whole different pieces of gear the memory has ot reference PS4 limitations indeed

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Originally Posted by seraf

Something I want to see changed is the removal of zones. I know it won't ever happen but I'd like all the zones connected as a seamless landscape. All of Black Shroud as one giant open map for example or all of Thanalan. The only time you should be zoning is if you change Regions of course.

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I guess it would depend on if they have some really really powerful tools for the job, like there were some nifty tools used in the creation editor that helped make Open Cities in Bethesda games. Basically it takes the cities out of their own zone and plops them into the open world.

If they can move all of the coordinates and little details that are important but unseen then it's actually not that impossible, moving the terrain would only be hard if the game isn't to scale from a zone to zone. Although they would have to make invisible walls at the edge of their zones that don't connect to other zones or create A LOT of in between space.

Personally had suggested before that when you reach the edge of a zone into white space while flying instead of an invisible wall it phases you into a world map (at areas where the zone changes to another zone you just fly into the next one though), something like you would have seen in almost any major FF title - except 3d of course like what was in FFXI. So they don't have to develop the empty space until they want to, and you could fly out of Central Shroud right into Eastern Thanalan if you wanted. Curious if the ps4 could handle holding a 3d map in the background like that, like a more detail skyrim map (which ps4 can handle - I'm sure some fancy loading of the map near you could be done but yeah.. extra work).

Unfortunately I'm not sure all the time it would cost to ensure you didn't break every MSQ and other little details would be worth making the game zoneless, to the team I mean. Like I'd love to see it, but what would it add besides a really high level of immersion. People already accept zones.. So making it zoneless again would just be for the epeen in comparing to other mmos lol.

Am I the only one that thinks that anyone who prefaces their post with "With PS3 support being dropped can we/finally we can get x" has little to no idea what exactly they're talking about? That'd require code for every pattern in every combination of every color of every piece of dyable gear in the game. With 99 different colors to choose for and combine.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Am I the only one that thinks that anyone who prefaces their post with "With PS3 support being dropped can we/finally we can get x" has little to no idea what exactly they're talking about? That'd require code for every pattern in every combination of every color of every piece of dyable gear in the game. With 99 different colors to choose for and combine.

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Most likely if they're going that high in color options they wouldn't make code for every pattern, they'd just send over the numbers that make up the color and let the client fix it up. 255, 20, 0 or something. They wouldn't make a variable for every single color at that point, they might not even do that now. Of course more and more options at larger number of players on screen at once can make simple things less simple. Their colors seem to be rather particular though so its probably more than three, like reflection options or whatever. In that case it'd be like sending over a specific variable, hawtchestpiece_22(1053).

Anyway, what I mean to say is I highly doubt they've made a code for every combination of every color of every armor, but rather just fill in the blank. The amount of work to make an identifier for everything would be like.. omph why lol.

Although adding full color choice and adding multiple color locations would mean more and more gets sent, like hawtchestpiece_22(255, 20, 0, 200, 34, 200) for every single piece of gear that a player can dye and then for every player.

I think it will be too late for 3.55 if the devs have not worked on it already. Maybe 4.1 or 4.4 if the devs start on it before 4.0.
And it will be only for new gears

Lol Don't shoot the messenger guys! I would love it as a feature, I'm just letting you know what the dev team has said on it in the past >>; They never said why it would take a better system, nor did they go into details on what it would take. I just letting you know to not hold your breath cause its already been commented on.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

It's lazyness. They don't want to go back and re edit gear sets.

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Lazyness implies they are laying around, slumped in their seats watching youtube, rather than working their asses off to produce the content we get.

I suspect the issue is engine restrictions and those kind of issues require major overhauls to change. You cant convert a car into a plane without basically rebuilding it from scratch and even then it might not work perfectly. He did say that the existing engine might be able to apply a different dye to highlights but not a situation where you can have a jacket one color and the shirt underneath another.

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

that's pretty silly. DCUO has a 3 color dye system, and they had that on the PS3. That's even a free-to-play MMO.

I'm not sure how the development works, but I don't get why having multiple dyes would be so hard.

I'm sure someone here will try their hardest to explain it to me though.

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Well frankly its down to the dev team. And to be honest they are really bad.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Lazyness implies they are laying around, slumped in their seats watching youtube, rather than working their asses off to produce the content we get.

I suspect the issue is engine restrictions and those kind of issues require major overhauls to change. You cant convert a car into a plane without basically rebuilding it from scratch and even then it might not work perfectly. He did say that the existing engine might be able to apply a different dye to highlights but not a situation where you can have a jacket one color and the shirt underneath another.

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This is the most ludicrous defense for SE. A modern day mmo can't dye a jacket one color and a shirt another without 90k'ing all data centers?
Oh but highlights can work? You're naive...They can do it, and when they do "Multi slot dye" bundle in the mogstation.

I don't think implementing it for new items would take that much work, it's the fact that everyone asking for this would want them to go back and redo all the existing gear to be compatible with it. That is A LOT of work, and anyone calling the devteam lazy have no idea what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I don't think implementing it for new items would take that much work, it's the fact that everyone asking for this would want them to go back and redo all the existing gear to be compatible with it. That is A LOT of work, and anyone calling the devteam lazy have no idea what they're talking about.

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Enlighten me on how I don't know what im talking about. I'm simply asking for gear to be tested for multi slot dyeing. Doesn't matter if its 3.55 or 4.0+, regardless someone asked about it during fanfest and if i remember correctly Yoshi P misunderstood the question and immediately dismissed it. I know this takes time, I'm not asking for them to do this all in a patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think when asked about that during the fanfest their answer was "I think we'll need PS5 for that."

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If i recall correctly, they misunderstood the question at first.
Multi-sector dye options shouldn't be an issue to implement, just a lot of work going back if they wanna add it to all pieces.

And then you'd also have to ask yourself, how many dye-able sectors do we have? Is each piece individual? Or is there a set number across the board?

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Enlighten me on how I don't know what im talking about. I'm simply asking for gear to be tested for multi slot dyeing. Doesn't matter if its 3.55 or 4.0+, regardless someone asked about it during fanfest and if i remember correctly Yoshi P misunderstood the question and immediately dismissed it. I know this takes time, I'm not asking for them to do this all in a patch cycle.

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It's just that devtime has to be highly prioritized, because there is never enough devtime for all the things they want to do. Like Gabe Newell said in a recent interview, "Anything in a game is a sacrifice of things not in the game". Personally, while I think more detailed gear dye would be really nice, I don't want it if it means they have to sacrifice or significantly delay something else for it, which in all likelihood is the case.

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Originally Posted by seekified

It's just that devtime has to be highly prioritized, because there is never enough devtime for all the things they want to do. Like Gabe Newell said in a recent interview, "Anything in a game is a sacrifice of things not in the game". Personally, while I think more detailed gear dye would be really nice, I don't want it if it means they have to sacrifice or significantly delay something else for it, which in all likelihood is the case.

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Oh nooo we cant lose the pointless and not fun scholasticate quests. What would we ever do.

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Originally Posted by Zampp

Oh nooo we cant lose the pointless and not fun scholasticate quests. What would we ever do.

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More like ilevel 15 models for future raid gears, because the devs would not have enough time to create new models.
And that will create 5 complain threads on day 1

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Originally Posted by Felis

More like ilevel 15 models for future raid gears, because the devs would not have enough time to create new models.
And that will create 5 complain threads on day 1

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Case in point: the Minos. See also initially undyable Creator Savage gear, etc.

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Originally Posted by AngelyLowell

I really don't see why we need a PS5 for that, really.

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Simple really. Let's say you have 24 unique colors, and now you are capable of putting 2 colors on 1 piece of gear. So with the ability to use the same color twice you end up with 24x24 which is 576 combinations. So pretty much with the current dye system each piece of gear 1=24, however by increasing the amount of colors you can put on a piece of gear you exponentially increase that number to 1=576 per piece of gear, which of course is 24 times more than before. It adds up. If there were 100 piece of gear in the game, the old dye system would have 2400 variables, now it has 57600 variables, and that number only gets higher and higher the more pieces of gear you introduce that you allow 2 dyes.

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Originally Posted by Zampp

Oh nooo we cant lose the pointless and not fun scholasticate quests. What would we ever do.

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I do hope you realise that the development team is broken into smaller teams focused on specific things. Stuff like dye channels would be handled exclusively by the art team. As such, any extra work invested by them into giving us extra dye channels on gear would mean less new art made for the game elsewhere. The likely casualty would be less new equipment in each patch, or poorer quality.

It would be hard to implement since they would have to go back to all dyeable gear and modify them. Tech wise it wouldn't be an issue on PC, but would be on PS4.
I'm sure you can expect other improvements with stormblood since PS3 isn't supported and it has been dragging the game down tech wise to this point. PC at the very least got its DX11 update which made the game itself look nicer, but having some other upgrades to complexity of environments and the things you can do would be nice. Swimming is one thing that can happen with the PS3 support being dropped. Not something you could have implemented smoothly on that system.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Simple really. Let's say you have 24 unique colors, and now you are capable of putting 2 colors on 1 piece of gear. So with the ability to use the same color twice you end up with 24x24 which is 576 combinations. So pretty much with the current dye system each piece of gear 1=24, however by increasing the amount of colors you can put on a piece of gear you exponentially increase that number to 1=576 per piece of gear, which of course is 24 times more than before. It adds up. If there were 100 piece of gear in the game, the old dye system would have 2400 variables, now it has 57600 variables, and that number only gets higher and higher the more pieces of gear you introduce that you allow 2 dyes.

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That would be the worst way to solve it though. Like probably literally the worst lol (1:1 is very bad efficiency). I dont know of the best way but wc3 for example used alpha channels and specific colors to represent team color, there was only ONE model for all 12 possible colors. If they were making that many variations while some 2000 game was doing it in one.. Derp.

Again like I said before they're most likely just feeding either a specific code matched in a table of information, like pure white is 2032 - or they're just feeding the specific make up of the color itself (don't really need to send the color make up unless you start adding a load of customized options). Besides if they want a lot of options in each make up a table might be more useful (refleciton, etc etc).

Adding highlight areas would be simply separating it out, which would add time of course (have to go back on all the old stuff - that'd be not free) but would be easier moving forward. Still slow things down slightly, and probably piss a lot of people off when they pick highlight areas players didn't want highlighted or players wanted a third or fourth area highlighted and so on. But yeah.

20 colors =! 23040324 different pieces of gear. 20 colors = 1 piece of gear + color information. New area to color just adds more information the server has to send and receive.

People are making dyes way too complex/inefficient. (Not that sending more information is for free, or redesigning a system is either, just that unless they're going a really terrible route it's not different versions of gear).

It's the game taking a gear with specific areas prepared to be colored for all dyes (1 version), and receiving that colored information and coloring client side.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

If i recall correctly, they misunderstood the question at first.

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I don't think Yoshi-P misunderstood the question. From what I remember, it started off as a question for multiple sections of the same armor piece to be dyed with different colours, to which he replied with that PS5 comment.

The question then shifted to multiple sections being dyed with various shades of the same colour, which was something he said to be possible.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Simple really. Let's say you have 24 unique colors, and now you are capable of putting 2 colors on 1 piece of gear. So with the ability to use the same color twice you end up with 24x24 which is 576 combinations. So pretty much with the current dye system each piece of gear 1=24, however by increasing the amount of colors you can put on a piece of gear you exponentially increase that number to 1=576 per piece of gear, which of course is 24 times more than before. It adds up. If there were 100 piece of gear in the game, the old dye system would have 2400 variables, now it has 57600 variables, and that number only gets higher and higher the more pieces of gear you introduce that you allow 2 dyes.

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That's not how colour variations work in games. The number of possible combinations is of no consequence to the hardware demands. It's really not that simple at all.

Most dye systems simply apply a modifier tint over the base texture with the default colour just being a unique default tint. That tint would be determined via an RGB colour value applied based on the ID of the dye assigned to that channel. Each tint application would be a simple multiplication with the base colour RGB value in the shader. If the artists are being efficient they may have a way to mask each tint application so that the combined dye channels are only a single rendered material, which would mean it would still take up the exact same amount of memory. The only difference that more dye channels would make is that the renderer would have to perform a few extra multiplications for each dye. The number of possible combinations would be irrelevant and there wouldn't necessarily be a significant increase in memory usage.

The only real limiting factor would simply be that making a piece of equipment would suddenly be a bit more work, and over time this would result in either lower quality or lower production overall.