24-man Raid tokens. Please give.

Done 20 Dun Scaith by now and still didn't get my drop.
I hate everything right now.

Please give me tokens.

Thank you.

there is a token

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Mhachi matter will no longer be obtainable in the Weeping City of Mhach, but can now be obtained in Dun Scaith.

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I assume they want a token system where if you farm enough of them, you can trade it in for whatever piece of gear you wanted.

Sounds like you've had a bad bout of rng, OP.

Even if they did have Gear tokens in the 24-Man, it'd likely work just the same as in 8-Man Raids, and you'd still only get one a week.

The token system for the 8-man raids is terrible and needs to be changed before they try to implement it anywhere else. But really, SE's methodology for loot acquiry is pretty flawed across the board. Too much stick, not enough carrot.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The token system for the 8-man raids is terrible and needs to be changed before they try to implement it anywhere else. But really, SE's methodology for loot acquiry is pretty flawed across the board. Too much stick, not enough carrot.

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Something I put in another thread about alexanders loot and 24 man. basically adopt the primals loot system across all content

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Originally Posted by Dzian

When it comes to loot systems in FFXIV the best one in place is the Primal system. It's almost the perfect system for 3 reasons.

1:- There's no lockouts at all. If you so chose to do so you could have cleared zurvan ex yesterday and farmed the hell out it and quite possibly got EVERY weapon and the bird by now. what are we 36 hours into the patch give or take.. no lock outs at all and yet it works. so why does all other content need these lockouts?

2:- It has working RNG which can be hugely satisfying. just opened the loot chest and there's a nice shiny new gun for your machinist. it feels great when you win that roll. and makes things a lot more interesting than just loltomes.

3:- It guarantees progression. Even if the RNG in number 2 never ever drops a weapon for your jobs it doesn't matter because you also get totems. 10 of those totems and you get your weapon guaranteed. so you still win. it's impossible to lose or not progress if you clear the content.

The only thing that stops the primal system being perfect is that those totems in number 3 take up inventory space. it would be so much better if they separated in the key items tab for example or even currency tabs...

You could easily implement a similar system in Alex without to many changes.
you could keep the rng drops from various wings turns or whatever you call em. but also add another item. lets say for example "alexandrain screw" guaranteed to get one every time you clear the fight.

all you then need is a trade in system that would for example let you trade in 10 screws for a bolt, or 10 screws for a shaft spring or crank. and once you've got your 4 shafts you can still get your body piece. even if you had to clear the content 40 times to get 40 of the screws progression would be guaranteed. (on one hand 40 sounds a lot. but on the other some weeks ive prolly done it that many just to get my weekly)

it'd also work in 24 man raids. ive done dun scaith 3 times since the patch and seen 90% of the loot hit the floor. because everyone holds there 1 roll for the same pieces.
and it gets to the point where people are running it 15-20 times a week to try and get that 1 item and making no progress at all.

add another totem item guaranteed for the clear. trade in x number of them for a piece of your choosing. bam again guaranteed progression. even in the extreme worst cases of RNG.

going forward to 4.0 I really hope they do something like this. because 2.0 was much the same. how many times did I run t12 coil for a pair of bard pants I honestly can't tell you.

They have a really great loot system in XIV and it works well. they just need to implement it across all content

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Limit it to 10 tokens per week. Make each piece cost 10 tokens.
Or something like this, i don't care what it is as long as i can get my piece after X amount of runs.

Being at the mercy of RNG is awful, especially for something as painful as 24man raids.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

Please give me tokens.

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Why would I want a token system? That means I still have to run it more than 1 times a week anyways and after the first one it starts to get stale. SE needs to fix 24 man gear since we have 20 items dropping from each boss in every raid it's honestly horrendous and makes gearing up alts even more tedious. It also presents the problem with raids near the end of the expansion, you want that nice chestpiece once the 1 loot restriction is over? Too bad that person just need rolled for seals. Oops.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

Limit it to 10 tokens per week.

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No thanks running that 10 times for 1 token per? That's even worse and a time waster since soon they'll remove the cap on Scrip by 3.55 and everyone will have free 260 gear. Assuming every run takes 30-40 minutes, do that 10 times it's roughly 5-6 hours of your time per week wasted.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Why would I want a token system? That means I still have to run it more than 1 times a week anyways and after the first one it starts to get stale. SE needs to fix 24 man gear since we have 20 items dropping from each boss in every raid it's honestly horrendous and makes gearing up alts even more tedious. It also presents the problem with raids near the end of the expansion, you want that nice chestpiece once the 1 loot restriction is over? Too bad that person just need rolled for seals. Oops.



No thanks running that 10 times for 1 token per? That's even worse and a time waster since soon they'll remove the cap on Scrip by 3.55 and everyone will have free 260 gear. Assuming every run takes 30-40 minutes, do that 10 times it's roughly 5-6 hours of your time per week wasted.

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But it is much easier to form a party with the express purpose of farming 10 times than pure RnG. There is an endpoint in sight ala Bird farming.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Why would I want a token system? That means I still have to run it more than 1 times a week anyways and after the first one it starts to get stale. SE needs to fix 24 man gear since we have 20 items dropping from each boss in every raid it's honestly horrendous and makes gearing up alts even more tedious. It also presents the problem with raids near the end of the expansion, you want that nice chestpiece once the 1 loot restriction is over? Too bad that person just need rolled for seals. Oops.



No thanks running that 10 times for 1 token per? That's even worse and a time waster since soon they'll remove the cap on Scrip by 3.55 and everyone will have free 260 gear. Assuming every run takes 30-40 minutes, do that 10 times it's roughly 5-6 hours of your time per week wasted.

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I mean a token system on top of the current system. A safety net kinda thing.
24 runs by now and still no drop.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Something I put in another thread about alexanders loot and 24 man. basically adopt the primals loot system across all content

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The issue with your example is longevity. Once I have all the weapons and bird I want out of Zurvan, I'll likely never touch him again save to help friends. Case in point, I got everything I needed from Alexander Normal within six-ish weeks and stopped queuing for him. In fact, I haven't touched normal mode in well over a month. They implement RNG to purposely funnel us into content so others can run it too. If Dun Scaith adopted the Primal system, people would farm it the first couple weeks then never touch it.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

But it is much easier to form a party with the express purpose of farming 10 times than pure RnG. There is an endpoint in sight ala Bird farming.

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Right but you can choose only a 3rd of the raid via 8 people once you get your stuff there's no point to run it. That's why they have this system so people keep running it to keep content running if we had 10 tokens we'd say "okay got my item no need to run it anymore". That way no one would be doing it at all and making new content not as favorable as the people who have gotten their 10 tokens don't need to run it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Right but you can choose only a 3rd of the raid via 8 people once you get your stuff there's no point to run it. That's why they have this system so people keep running it to keep content running if we had 10 tokens we'd say "okay got my item no need to run it anymore". That way no one would be doing it at all and making new content not as favorable as the people who have gotten their 10 tokens don't need to run it anymore.

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So you're saying people are expected to do more than 10 runs a week with the current system?
And people have a reason past getting their drop?

If i got my drop on 1st run, i'd not be going back in there anytime soon

Sounds to me like you're being too picky. I got my weekly on the first (and only) Dun Scaithe I have run. Not because I was lucky but because I opened my options beyond 1 or 2 specific pieces. If you don't want to be spamming that place over and over, you have to "take what you get". Same goes with any farmable content in this game.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Sounds to me like you're being too picky. I got my weekly on the first (and only) Dun Scaithe I have run. Not because I was lucky but because I opened my options beyond 1 or 2 specific pieces. If you don't want to be spamming that place over and over, you have to "take what you get". Same goes with any farmable content in this game.

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I have 3 pieces that would give me an iLv upgrade. One of the pieces i can't use due to acc issues.
So there's only 2 pieces left to choose from.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Something I put in another thread about alexanders loot and 24 man. basically adopt the primals loot system across all content

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I could've sworn they said they put that one piece per week on raid stuff in to keep people from farming up everything all at once, getting bored and leaving. Although, even at the risk of that I would much rather prefer no lockouts on raid loot right from the get-go.

I do agree though, the current loot system is broken as hell and needs to be revamped, hard. Either go back to how Coil worked or better yet, come up with a brand new system that takes it in a new direction.

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Originally Posted by Awful

That's why they have this system so people keep running it to keep content running if we had 10 tokens we'd say "okay got my item no need to run it anymore".

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And now we have some people only run it once and go:"Okay, got my item, no need to run it anymore."

RNG works like a cross subsidy - In order to allow lucky people to only do one run and be done, unlucky people have run a lot more, the average remains roughly the same. Statistical outliers are capped on the minimum (1 run) and open ended on the maximum of runs (Any number below infinite has a chance of occurring) - which is why a 10% drop rate would translate to roughly 11,41242 runs to attain on average or something akin in reality.

That's all RNG does. Please slap everyone who claims it adds "longevity", because it doesn't, it only makes unlucky people run more so that lucky people don't have to, because with a token system, both would have to run the same amount.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

Limit it to 10 tokens per week. Make each piece cost 10 tokens.
Or something like this, i don't care what it is as long as i can get my piece after X amount of runs.

Being at the mercy of RNG is awful, especially for something as painful as 24man raids.

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I actually think this could work with some restrictions.

- You can only ever have 10 tokens; they reset every week regardless of the amount
- Loot still drops from 24 man raids; should you successful roll on it, you cannot turn in tokens for that week

Basically, make it a guarantee you'll get what you want eventually each week.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I actually think this could work with some restrictions.

- You can only ever have 10 tokens; they reset every week regardless of the amount
- Loot still drops from 24 man raids; should you successful roll on it, you cannot turn in tokens for that week

Basically, make it a guarantee you'll get what you want eventually each week.

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I feel like some of those things would be hard to implement maybe.
I'd be totally okay with just getting 10 tokens per week on top of current system.

I'd even be fine with people getting 2 pieces of gear this way.
Who cares, it's just ketchup content anyway.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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And that's why RNG is the illusion of longevity you can farm and farm until your blue in the face and RNG will bless you at some point. The 24 man raid content has 20 items to drop (and can double drop) which is just terrible, you either farm it which is you telling yourself it'll drop or it won't so the unlucky few keep running it and hope to get it.

So I agree with you the unlucky people keep running it because RNG is a bad way to incentivize and keep content relevant.

Make it 14 tokens and 2 token each day. Token reset to 0 if rolled succesfully on a gear

While a token for the loot would very much ease up the grind for gear from them...

They'd have to do something to make it worth doing for more than the bare minimum runs, so that the queue can actually get 24 people...

i feel you, been running the two last dungeon add to get a set for glam, two days from morning to night to get them

Now we're asking for a token system for glamours, or I'm I reading this the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The token system for the 8-man raids is terrible and needs to be changed before they try to implement it anywhere else. But really, SE's methodology for loot acquiry is pretty flawed across the board. Too much stick, not enough carrot.

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Totally agree

This is all a business ploy to keep you playing. If they let you rush the treadmill, people will max out their characters ASAP and will demand more content within a few weeks. This way square keeps you busy with the tiny piece of cracker they throw at you every few months.

In old old threads I always wanted safety net systems too, so +1 ofc.

Just to add that the safety net doesn't have to be tokens, but imo there must be at least something to ensure you don't become the outlier that do and always will happen with just % systems. Something that ensures over a given period of failures you won't fail any longer (failure being the loot not the victory ofc lol).

Like RNG is nice because it hides and obscures expectation, for a time it can help lower the monotonous feeling - but only as long as you don't get screwed over non-stop. Also sometimes RNG can make you feel really lucky if you cut the average attempts in half or so. RNG by itself can be incredibly frustrating and soul draining though (feeling of impossibility, hopelessness), like for example before proper tokens on primals (long ago) I had done ifrit 55 times and never received /any/ weapon, at that point I gave up until the token system came out.

So doesn't have to be tokens explicitly but there should be something I think, to prevent the possibility that the RNG decides that you're going to pay. Reminds me of the people who farmed leaping lizzy hundreds of more times than the average lol. I thought they should just make a Favor of the Goddess system or something, where it holds all your token information. From there you could use your goddess's favor to influence certain drops, or perhaps with enough failure tokens in a specific dungeon or ilvl range could then summon some aether form that could be traded in for said item. That way we might be able to reduce all the random and shifting clutter, also can improve the one system rather than have two broken ones and one functioning one lol.

Anyway, don't want all items to be free and instant of course - don't misunderstand me, I just don't think it is fun in any manor to be the outlier and I've seen others have it done to them and I've had it done to me too. It's not fun, it's not a good idea, or a good system when that happens, but when RNG is in a narrow band (average with beneficial or slight variation) - its actually not that bad. So just add some strong quality supplement when RNG doesn't play nice lol.

getting double loot for a job thats not even in the party (like double ninja pants and no ninja) is more annoying to me than not getting anything.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Now we're asking for a token system for glamours, or I'm I reading this the wrong way.

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If ilvl 260 armor is glamour stuff, then i guess so...


But at any rate, the random drops are very far from a good system... Getting a token that can be exchanged for gear would probably work better, but it would make the queues fill up only for the first day or two of the reset...

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

If ilvl 260 armor is glamour stuff, then i guess so...


But at any rate, the random drops are very far from a good system... Getting a token that can be exchanged for gear would probably work better, but it would make the queues fill up only for the first day or two of the reset...

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Random drops are not bad systems in terms of longevity. Unmitigated random drop systems like FFXIV is the issue. They seem to love using oldschool unmitigated true Random systems for just about everything thus leading to a lot of unnecessary frustration and hardship.

I'd say that a neat thing would be a mechanic that gives you a small boost to your rolls each time you clear without getting any loot, that way you can eventually get the gear you want, but with some RNG still there to prevent everyone from bum-rushing Dun Scaith/Alexander in the first few weeks and then leaving it.

General loot i suppose is fair even if RNG is never on the side for some of us and the token of once per week is also fine.
Not sure what you are getting at not getting tokens, you automatically get one for completion? Perhaps i just misunderstood what you are saying

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

If ilvl 260 armor is glamour stuff, then i guess so...

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It is for glamour when the 24 man raid already give (or will give) you a guaranteed token for a higher ilevel gear (a token to upgrade your tome gear)

This would be nice yes.

Also, this is desperately needed for the old 2.0 raid series too. I've been into WoD several times per day in order to pursue the mythical demon chestpeice of scouting for some time now, and it's just horrible. WoD only drops 1 thing per boss clear rather than HW's two drops, come on they should at least buff that up to 2 drops like HW. Even better though, just give us a token for clearing it X amount of times so we can get that glamour piece we have been working on trying to get rngesus to drop for who knows how long.

I'll be honest, I dropped World of Darkness shortly after the patch because I hated running it over and over again for a piece of armor. 10 tokens would work so much better. I would still only be able to purchase one a week, but I would also still be running the dungeon.

I don't get people saying..
"If you only have to get 10 tokens, then the queue would die. ( / die after 1-2 days)"

Just how many runs do you expect people to do per week?
Most people i know only do 1-2 runs as it is.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It is for glamour when the 24 man raid already give (or will give) you a guaranteed token for a higher ilevel gear (a token to upgrade your tome gear)

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Depending on the stats at least. Like how many people don't won't parry for their tank gear or Dragoons (and I assume the other melee DPS) are trying to stick within a certain Skill Speed range. The new i260 gear can possibly replace i250 gear because of this.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

I don't get people saying..
"If you only have to get 10 tokens, then the queue would die. ( / die after 1-2 days)"

Just how many runs do you expect people to do per week?
Most people i know only do 1-2 runs as it is.

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If people are willing to run A1S 6 hours in a day for their relic, people will run those raids 10 times for the token. Heck, even know, most content related to weekly resets tend to drop in activity by the 2nd or 3rd day after the reset because most got their stuff,.

After four or five runs just today where my party has carried the whole raid, and I rolled on the caster top then realised I was meaning to buy the scripture version just as I won it, and remembering running mhach 20 times in one week and literally never seeing the piece I want drop (it's always tank gloves, they never drop...)

Please. I'm tired of running this content. I'm tired of seeing people who die to every mechanic getting their gear/bird/music and leaving and watching parties disband just before I get anything, for that matter. I just want SOME way to see an END in sight for things like 24mans.

I CANT EVEN USE THE CASTER TOP. WHY DID I ROLL ON IT. HELP ME.

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

After four or five runs just today where my party has carried the whole raid, and I rolled on the caster top then realised I was meaning to buy the scripture version just as I won it, and remembering running mhach 20 times in one week and literally never seeing the piece I want drop (it's always tank gloves, they never drop...)

Please. I'm tired of running this content. I'm tired of seeing people who die to every mechanic getting their gear/bird/music and leaving and watching parties disband just before I get anything, for that matter. I just want SOME way to see an END in sight for things like 24mans.

I CANT EVEN USE THE CASTER TOP. WHY DID I ROLL ON IT. HELP ME.

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How I felt after getting fed up and going in as a DPS, rolled on the first healer item that dropped (cus healer wait time was 30+), already had the shire version :(