I think mentor roulette rewards should be awarded based on time rather than run count

that way mentors have an incentive to help out in extreme trials and battles which take a long time

rather than speed running and ruining the experience for the entire party to meet the requirements, sometimes mentors even leave because they just want a fast run

Mhm...issue is that the mentor then has the incentive to drag the run out as much as possible. That's not ideal either.

Setting incentives is a fickle thing.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Mhm...issue is that the mentor then has the incentive to drag the run out as much as possible. That's not ideal either.

Setting incentives is a fickle thing.

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if that happens the mentor can be kicked and maybe reported so they may lose mentor status

Honestly my only gripe with being a mentor is that I'm not mentoring anyone.. Literally. I thought being a mentor would put me in groups with "freshies" that hadn't completed a dungeon or trial before, half the time it's me, 2 other mentors and some guy called Ted. >_>

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Originally Posted by Lokier

Honestly my only gripe with being a mentor is that I'm not mentoring anyone.. Literally. I thought being a mentor would put me in groups with "freshies" that hadn't completed a dungeon or trial before, half the time it's me, 2 other mentors and some guy called Ted. >_>

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wouldn't even let me join duo mentor with a friend but it would put me with some random mentor when I'm mentoring

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Originally Posted by Neihel

wouldn't even let me join duo mentor with a friend but it would put me with some random mentor when I'm mentoring

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That too, and I couldn't level a class whilst I mentored either. Had to be lvl 60. At least during stormbrood I can /hopefully/ level my classes as I mentor.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Mhm...issue is that the mentor then has the incentive to drag the run out as much as possible. That's not ideal either.

Setting incentives is a fickle thing.

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This. I feel like what we have now is a fine compromise. Honestly though, IMO, if you are truly focused on helping people (which you should be as a mentor) how fast you complete said content shouldn't matter much.

Nah, that is way too abusable like someone said above. People could just sit in there for an hour and run the clock out for no reason. Yeah, you can kick but the other 2-7 people in there would still have to deal with their time being wasted.

Might be better to reward more completion points for harder things. So EX Primals and harder things maybe give 2 completion points toward the achieve. Still encourages mentors to help with harder things and doesn't have the drawback of intentional stalling.

As someone who got Astrope the hard way, I can guarantee your method is a lot easier to exploit and would not help any new players.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Nah, that is way too abusable like someone said above. People could just sit in there for an hour and run the clock out for no reason. Yeah, you can kick but the other 2-7 people in there would still have to deal with their time being wasted.

Might be better to reward more completion points for harder things. So EX Primals and harder things maybe give 2 completion points toward the achieve. Still encourages mentors to help with harder things and doesn't have the drawback of intentional stalling.

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I'd be more inclined to not go 'for fuck sake' when raids and EXTs showed up in mentor rou' if there was a better reward for doing it. Raids I don't, but when I get EXT I just wonder why people aren't using party finder to get clears...

If they removed EXT and raids for mentor that would be even better.

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Originally Posted by Neihel

that way mentors have an incentive to help out in extreme trials and battles which take a long time

rather than speed running and ruining the experience for the entire party to meet the requirements, sometimes mentors even leave because they just want a fast run

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The rewards for mentors should be removed. Mentor is something what you should do on your free will and without a reward.

Since queuing as a healer frequently places me there, this change would make "The Thousand Hours of Toto-Rak" a much more apt name for the place.

As it is, it is what it is.

Also, with time based achievements, what I would do, is convince everyone trying to abandon an ex that they can't do to instead let someone be kicked and leave, then go and get coffee while I sit on my own staring down the primal until the timer ticks out so I can get my mentor hours in.

At least with a clears based achievement I actually have to pull my weight, and as usually happens, the weight of half the other party members too, for it to count. I much prefer this.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

The rewards for mentors should be removed. Mentor is something what you should do on your free will and without a reward.

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Couldn't agree with you more. Rewards for mentors were a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

The rewards for mentors should be removed. Mentor is something what you should do on your free will and without a reward.

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My guess would be that you also believe rewards should be removed from raiding because it's something you should do on your own free will and without a reward.

If not, you're a hypocrite.

Mentors need incentives and rewards just like everyone else. Teachers, instructors, professors, etc. in real life aren't expected to do their jobs for free.

The issue is not rewards. It's that the mentor system is deeply flawed.

If you want good mentors then actually make a system that rewards and fosters better mentors and encourages positive behavior from both mentor and student.

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Originally Posted by Neihel

if that happens the mentor can be kicked and maybe reported so they may lose mentor status

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Considering the type of drivel talked about in mentor chat that GMs do little about. I somehow doubt mentor status would be revoked. Regardless, there are plenty of easily abusable ways that are perfectly within the rules. Examples?

- Small pulls; to the tune of single mobs
- Limited or no cooldowns usage if a tank
- No DPS whatsoever as a healer
- Refusal to AoE mobs
- Frequent ready checks/long countdowns

None of those would be considered a reportable offense since it falls under the umbrella term of "their playstyle" yet they all could make even Sastasha an agonizing slow run.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

My guess would be that you also believe rewards should be removed from raiding because it's something you should do on your own free will and without a reward.

If not, you're a hypocrite.

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Anything that has potential reward is going to breed those who only want it just for the reward, the only thing is when it comes to raiding you actually have to be good at your job or your going to be kicked or removed. Where as being a mentor takes no real skill at all, just time which I would assume anyone who has been playing since 2.0 or even the start of 3.0 would have the needed (or close to) the required runs and commendations to achieve the title. So yes, I agree that the mentors should not have a reward that way only those who are truly wanting to take time and help people are the ones there, doing it because they want to. Not because they want the reward.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Anything that has potential reward is going to breed those who only want it just for the reward, the only thing is when it comes to raiding you actually have to be good at your job or your going to be kicked or removed. Where as being a mentor takes no real skill at all, just time which I would assume anyone who has been playing since 2.0 or even the start of 3.0 would have the needed (or close to) the required runs and commendations to achieve the title. So yes, I agree that the mentors should not have a reward that way only those who are truly wanting to take time and help people are the ones there, doing it because they want to. Not because they want the reward.

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Mentors not being good mentors or having no real skill has nothing to do with the reward and everything to do with the other aspects of the system. Even if you removed the rewards, you'd still have an army of holier than thou scrubs giving horrible advice.

Again, in real life, teachers, professors, instructors, trainers, etc. all get compensated for their services and generally have stricter qualifications. Nobody asks the best professors to do their job for free because their passion to teach should be enough. Nobody asks the best sports trainers to train people for free.

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Originally Posted by Lokier

Honestly my only gripe with being a mentor is that I'm not mentoring anyone.. Literally. I thought being a mentor would put me in groups with "freshies" that hadn't completed a dungeon or trial before, half the time it's me, 2 other mentors and some guy called Ted. >_>

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Agreed. I don't feel extreme content should be part of the Mentor System. The hard Trials absolutely they're required for Main Scenario completion. But extreme? No. Extreme is meant for players that have already mastered game Mechanics, not for the freshies we're supposed to teach.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

My guess would be that you also believe rewards should be removed from raiding because it's something you should do on your own free will and without a reward.

If not, you're a hypocrite.

Mentors need incentives and rewards just like everyone else. Teachers, instructors, professors, etc. in real life aren't expected to do their jobs for free.

The issue is not rewards. It's that the mentor system is deeply flawed.

If you want good mentors then actually make a system that rewards and fosters better mentors and encourages positive behavior from both mentor and student.

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You want to tell me that a person who is supposed to help new players is the same as 8 people who spend their time together in a raid? But you can call me hypocrite all that you want because raid and mentor is a completly different thing. I'm not a mentor but i still help new players if i see that they need it and guess what i don't expect anything as a reward because its enough reward for me when this player is playing a bit better because of my help.

And as long as the mentor system doesn't get changed in the way that only people who really help new players are the only mentors, there should not be any reward.

Oh look another thread about rewarding mentor more.

You chose to be mentor, you help. The end.

I've already suggested to change mentor rewards and let it be based on the number of commendations they get from mentor roulette. Not counting the commendations they got before becoming one.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I've already suggested to change mentor rewards and let it be based on the number of commendations they from mentor roulette. Not counting the commendations they got before becoming one.

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I like this idea!

It is highly unlikely that the rewards and how they are obtained will ever be changed or removed. If there was going to be any change it would have been done before the first person got the highest reward (the mount) which was added 6+ months ago and has been obtained by 50+ people. If SE were to remove the rewards now, people who do not have them and want them/are working on them, would complain. If they were to change how the reward is earned, those who have the rewards currently would complain. Damned it they do, damned if they don't.

The best thing anyone can do is to not be one of "those mentors". There is always going to be the occasional rotten apple no matter what content you do. The only thing we can do is put our best foot forward as individuals and be the example, mentor or non-mentor.

^ True, it is too late for a change now since people got their rewards but for the future, if they are planing to add more rewards they should change it.

Hold on a second, do you mean that people should be rewarded for spending as much time as they can in an instance?
Alright, then what's stopping mentors from slowing the run down as much as they can so they run a couple of mentor roulettes for rewards, meanwhile avoiding actually being helpful so as to make sure the run takes as long as possible?

I really, really don't see this working as you intend it to work...

For one, mentor roulette does not ensure that you land an instance with someone new that needs guidance - this roulette will simply put you in instances that lack players to be able to go in. This can be, and has been many times in the times that I've queued up for it, things like lvl60 dungeons, including the latest ones (when I queue up for mentor roulette late at night I land an expert roulette dungeon most of the times), easy HM trials that require little to no time/explanation, etc. ...

If you want the rewards to increase or be reduced according to something, please make it something that would not actually compromise the overall "smoothness" of the run. After all, even if you land some sprouts in your roulette, it's not guaranteed that the run will take overly long or that the players will require any lengthy explanations... said sprout could be an alt, for example, and the run could be amazingly smooth, and you, the mentor, would wind up with gimped rewards unfairly.

Instead of time of completion, I'd prefer that rewards scale off something like commendations, or a mentor evaluation feature, for example...

Or maybe even limit the instances that you can land in through mentor roulette to instances that a sprout has queued for. This at least could dissuade achievement-hunting unhelpful mentors from queuing up for this roulette while hoping for a speed run... but honestly I'm not fond of this alternative, since it could make queues longer and dissuade mentors from queuing for the wrong reason. :P

You know, I've only gotten "serious" content like twice in mentor roulette in the time I've been running it, mostly I get Guildhests.. Time would not be an incentive for me.

I had the idea that it should only count if you get everyone's commendations (and only in 8-man duties but I can see how that would be abused). So 4 man duties you need 3 commendations, 8 man duties you need 7 commendations. Perhaps they'd have to split the roulette (4-man mentor roulette and 8-man mentor roulette) and add an awesome reward for the 8 man mentor roulette. One that everyone will want. Say, complete 50'000 8-man duty roulettes earning 7 commendations from each roulette. This way, I believe you're forced to work with everyone to try and get those commendations.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I had the idea that it should only count if you get everyone's commendations (and only in 8-man duties but I can see how that would be abused). So 4 man duties you need 3 commendations, 8 man duties you need 7 commendations. Perhaps they'd have to split the roulette (4-man mentor roulette and 8-man mentor roulette) and add an awesome reward for the 8 man mentor roulette. One that everyone will want. Say, complete 50'000 8-man duty roulettes earning 7 commendations from each roulette. This way, I believe you're forced to work with everyone to try and get those commendations.

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If it were like this no one would ever get the rewards ever. I manage 3comms from 4man stuff very infrequently, and have only managed the 7comm once. The runs where I've had to work hardest to ensure the clear have been the runs where I've got basically 0 comms. On top of that, all you need is someone who forgets to comm because all their energy was focused on the clear, or someone who doesn't comm because "Mentors should be doing it to help people, not for the rewards" to mean that someone who well deserves a clear to count would not get it. You'd get people just flat giving up on ever running the roulette because the chance of it being counted would be so slim that there'd be no point, defeating the point of the roulette existing in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

^ True, it is too late for a change now since people got their rewards but for the future, if they are planing to add more rewards they should change it.

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I highly doubt they will be adding more. The same thing happened when they added the Parade Chocobo (the 3000 commendation mount) where people were upset about how hard it was to obtain, and worried that they would add more rewards. It's been a couple years and they haven't added another one. Considering how high the requirement to get Astrope is and how few have him, I doubt they will be adding anymore rewards. And if they do, it'll probably be in several years.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I've already suggested to change mentor rewards and let it be based on the number of commendations they get from mentor roulette. Not counting the commendations they got before becoming one.

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There is a reward for commendations; It's called the parade chocobo.


The only thing SE can really do at that point is change how you can achieve mentor status in future patches. Many of the "mentors" get their crowns from crafting, or just doing enough dungeons and grinding that they eventually meet the requirements. Whereas being able to queue for mentor roulette requires you to have completed all the content minus HW EX primals, the mentor status itself does not, which is incredibly counterproductive. On top of making the requirement for mentor title the same as being able to queue for the roulette, I'd change the mentor status for all the different roles to be completely separate (ie you can't get the PVE crown through crafting, or pvp through pve, etc.).

Regardless of what they ultimately decide to do, the mentor status as it is right now is incredibly unsatisfactory and carries a lot of negative connotation to it.

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Originally Posted by Louvain

[...]
On top of making the requirement for mentor title the same as being able to queue for the roulette, I'd change the mentor status for all the different roles to be completely separate (ie you can't get the PVE crown through crafting, or pvp through pve, etc.)[...]

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For what it's worth; I unlocked Mentor Status through PvE, but do not have access to the crafting mentor flags. I'm assuming the same is true in reverse, and unlocking Mentor status through Crafting does not grant you the pve/pvp flags. (Though it may be possible to unlock both sets, and pve would arguably be the easier to unlock)

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Originally Posted by Seig345

For what it's worth; I unlocked Mentor Status through PvE, but do not have access to the crafting mentor flags. I'm assuming the same is true in reverse, and unlocking Mentor status through Crafting does not grant you the pve/pvp flags. (Though it may be possible to unlock both sets, and pve would arguably be the easier to unlock)

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The crafting mentor flag is the "Trade Mentor" flag. I can assure you as I do not have ANY crafters or gatherers at 60, I do not meet the requirements (but I met the PvE requirements). However in spite of this, I still have PvE/Trade/PvP mentor flags all available to me. I however out of respect for what I feel qualified most to talk about (PvE) and what the Mentor system is all about, will only ever use the PvE Mentor flag.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

For what it's worth; I unlocked Mentor Status through PvE, but do not have access to the crafting mentor flags. I'm assuming the same is true in reverse, and unlocking Mentor status through Crafting does not grant you the pve/pvp flags. (Though it may be possible to unlock both sets, and pve would arguably be the easier to unlock)

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I've seen it on several occasions, and I myself have the pvp crown but have never, ever touched it.

To expand, I think the generalized crown (or a special version of it) would also be locked behind correctly meeting the requirements of all three, instead of being available right away.

Regardless of what people say, mentor roulette needs fixing for the wide variety of time sink involved.
EX trials really should not be in there, as 60 minutes is a tough task to teach a group of sprouts even if the group manages to stick together to the bitter end. The mentor gets nothing out of it afterwards but a feeling of totally wasted time.
I'm willing to teach synced EX primals no problem. I give EX trials 30 minutes in mentor roulette like with any other dungeon or trial, but I've never seen it happen. It's just not enough time and/or the people queued in aren't willing to put in the focus and effort.

If, I think, mentor roulette gave a consolation reward upon duty fail (not being kicked, voluntarily leaving duty, or initiated a votekick yourself of course) it would be nice - a proportionate amount based on time elapsed compared to the completion reward. It's not even that much, just the principle of it for the time spent.

I do think it'd be nice if the achievement progressed if you were in for the duty ending, rather than the duty completing. Maybe something like if you end up leaving once there's 5 minutes or less left on the Duty Timer (Which I believe is also when it stops allowing you get people in progress) it counts as one completed duty for the achievement? As an addendum to that it might also be nice to open up player commendations at that same time if things happened that way.

It might encourage people to stick it out when they get something difficult in the mentor roulette, whereas now the system just encourages you to leave the moment a wipe or two happens.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

You want to tell me that a person who is supposed to help new players is the same as 8 people who spend their time together in a raid? But you can call me hypocrite all that you want because raid and mentor is a completly different thing.

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Except they aren't. It's about rewarding people for their time. If raiding had no rewards and you expected people to do it purely on their own free will, the raiding population would plummet. Yea, you'll purge some bad players but you'll also lose a large number of great raiders and hurt the overall health of the raiding scene.

The point is making the role of mentor something that is prioritized. Not something that is an afterthought. Make it something that you really want. Not something that you forget about.

The FFXIV mentor system is like making real life teachers hold another job to pay the bills and teach on the side. What you're saying is that they should endure that lifestyle because teaching should be something they do out of passion. What I'm saying is that you should just pay them a living wage so that they can just focus on doing what they love to do.