Apologies if this thread has been made countless of times since the announcement of Stormblood, but I couldn't find this topic on page 1 or 2 and I'd like to see the input of some people here about changes they'd like to see for their favorite tank moving into 4.0. So let's begin.
PLD: Definitely more AoE. I suspect a nerf will be made to block scaling since there was a nerf placed back in 3.0 for blocking ( and parry), and this relates to PLD lacking AoE because I believe the reason why PLD lacks AoE GCD DPS is because SE is too afraid of creating a tank that has the ability to mitigate a lot of damage in an AoE pack via block while still being able to do good DPS with on GCD AoE coupled with the periodic blood bath for 15 seconds. PLD on GCD AoE has got to be the single most requested thing for PLD now and seeing some for 4.0 would be amazing. Aside from that, I cant really imagine what else PLD would want, aside from some sort of TP gain and other quality of life changes within the current PLD toolkit, like divine veil not needing a proc.
WAR: Im going to throw a curve ball here and say that I would like to see WAR gain some main tank exclusive abilities/traits akin to blocking and reprisal/blood price so we can see WARs at the front line being the MT instead of the defacto OT that it has been for years. I understand that WAR is build the way it is because its clear that SE wants players to choose between PLD or DRK for their MT and your other tank will always be WAR, but so long as this remains as the formula for tanks, it basically means every tank moving forward will ALWAYS compete for the MT slot where WAR is just locked into every single static, and that can't be healthy for this game when more tanks are introduced. Its also very difficult to make another OT centered tank as strong as WAR because then you would run WAR/new tank instead of MT/OT like they wanted. So, with that, I'd like to see WARs gain a block/reprisal skill to incentivize them as a MT, and perhaps some skills can be adjusted so that WAR is more in line with DRK/PLD and not just plainly better, locking down one of two tank slots.
DRK: As a DRK main, I would love to see more dark arts centered abilities, because the dark arts mechanic is amazing and really fun to manage. I'd like to see the animation lock on plunge be reduced to match shoulder tackle so DRK can easily double weave oGCDs while they use a plunge. As a DRK, its critical that you can double weave within every single global, so making that a thing for every oGCD would be very nice. Id like to see blood weapon get a grit only counterpart to incentivize DRK's to use grit a little more and not just always wanting to be out of it due to the nature of blood weapon. Id like to see the potencies of certain current dark arts abilities be adjusted so that they leave an actual impact, I'm looking at you Powerslash and dark dance. As for new abilities, anything that lets us reduce more damage, heal more, deal more damage would be welcomed. DRK runs a little low on the physical mitigation side and cant really self heal out of grit, so new abilities to help this would be grand. Secretly, I'd like DRK to gain a 1200 potency heal like clemency or equilibrium but that's wishful thinking.
SAM: Good joke. But seriously, if this job becomes a tank, I'd like to see it become counter-based as opposed to PLD's block. I'd also like this job to be about timing if it does end up a tank. I'm not sure how it would work, but it would be really cool to see a tank use situational abilities to help tank/reflect the damage it takes.
So tell me what you guys would like to see for your tank or the other tanks, or what you'd like to see for a new tank. :)
Changes/Abilities you'd like to see for 4.0 tanks.
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11-11-2016, 04:05 PMSaenoChanges/Abilities you'd like to see for 4.0 tanks.
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11-11-2016, 04:43 PMShurrikhan
I'd mostly like to see Gladiator, Marauder, and their respective jobs differentiated a bit more by way of (new) undermechanics, even if that would require first adding new coding into the game. These would likely include things like a rework of RNG mitigation tools, inclusion of new means of damage suppression or escapes, whatever is necessary to include any other new tools for active mitigation, "relative potency" debuffs (stronger effects on weaker enemies, amounting to similar mitigation caused, while no enemies are ever entirely immune), and maybe even a revision to how enmity works.
On a job by job level, I haven't much to say. I hope PLD can reach a level of AoE output and immediacy more even with the other two without sacrificing uniqueness (hopefully, even, improving on it instead). I'd like to see more done with the two Oaths, and a way for the time spent swapping to pay off, rather than to just make them abilities outright. Ideally, I'd like to see more of a slightly more theatrical/thematic spin on DRK even while remaining the brutally efficient "bastard tank", but it's basically fine as is.
In the long run I'd hope to see:- Most of our duller trait replaced with core, mechanical, more highly gameplay-affecting ones that can better bring out the feel of the given class and later job.
- Some slight balancing (such as by greater self-heal contribution or other stat-scaling factors) against how active mitigation against a given boss only fades in value as gear goes up, yet healing continually increases, making the tankier side of tank play only as valuable as the saved healer (offensive) GCDs, which—though scaling upward just as heals do—scarcely ever produce as much raid dps contribution as the prioritization of the tank's personal dps unless that tank had already just maxed out the healing affordable by high-efficiency or "free" (ability) heals alone;
- (If the above condition is satisfied) More range of tanks—they need not be balanced with the same potential dps and mitigation, only that the further they push into one extreme or the other - the less simultaneous output they have;
- Similarly, more styles of tanks—bring on the blink tanks, the ghost tanks, the support elements, and so forth;
- And greater "tank-like" gameplay interaction by "non-tanks"—likely playing into any of the new undermechanics, this should make the tank feel more "central" than "obligatory", and the party less aloof to its needs regardless of "role".
P.S. I'd like for SAM to be a hybrid, preferably even with the option of equipping either mail (DRG) or plate (tank) armor, with high outputs as a tank especially in skillful, rapid sorts of play, but among the lower simultaneous direct outputs, and definitely lower on overall mitigation unless played very well in regards to the particular encounter - a tank that excels among moderate damage and in quick response and good adaptability and adjustment for his healers enough to make up for technically lower basic or on-demand mitigation (especially against large hits). As a DPS... well I guess that's for another thread.
P.P.S. One thing I don't want to see from DRK is for its APM to go down, but nor do I want to be unable to weave Dark Arts slightly early in order to be able to get both oGCDs off as they come off CD next GCD just because almost every ability has become DA-modifiable. I'd love to see more done with its finishers and, again, a whole lot more thematic elements and near-craziness. -
11-11-2016, 06:24 PMBrannigan
For paladin I'd like them to add something that sets them apart from the other tanks and changes how you press your buttons. It doesn't necessarily have to be a new resource, but it could be something like any of:
-procs. There's shield swipe and Dark Knight has a couple off of parry, but that's really it for tanks. If paladin combo enders had a chance to proc other combo enders, that would change your gameplay. If your Savage Blade had a chance to consume your DoT effects to do a ton of extra damage, that would change up your rotation. Shield Swipe, Spirits Within, and Circle of Scorn could proc cooldown resets on each other in some unholy orgy of off GCDs. Perhaps Shield Swipe could sometimes proc a mini perfect balance and let you use any of your combo buttons freely. These are just examples off the top of my head.
-abilities/WS which have effects that vary wildly depending on which stance you're in. Paladin is the original 2-stance tank but has the fewest changes to its skills based on stance. That's lame.
-a faster GCD. This is what really sets mnk/ninja apart from dragoon for me. It just makes the classes feel different from their equivalents. Not my first choice, but it'd work.
-more spellcasting. This would be unpopular, but with changes to accommodate it (some form of interrupt protection, allowing blocking during casts), this would definitely set paladin apart from the other tanks. Right now Clemency and the ability to save other people is one of the things I like most about paladin because neither of the other two can do it.
Other than that, I'd like them to purge the uninspired filler abilities like Awareness. They shouldn't phone in the design on paladin just because they think of it as a baseline tank. I'd like to see another way to use MP (if it was a damaging ability this would also offset the need for any sort of TP gain move, which is a skill I'd like to avoid since it'd probably be boring). I'd also like to see more abilities that have big payoffs for timing and execution like Sheltron - in Living Liquid this thing was super awesome. -
11-11-2016, 10:11 PMLyth
General:
- One primary stat (VIT) instead of two. Remove STR dependence from gear. Adjust accessories and food accordingly.
- Standardise parry and block. Either tie both into MH/OH and remove parry from armor/accs, or incorporate both into a gear stat with appropriate scaling that affects both the rate and %DR.
- Consider eliminating accuracy from gear.
- Make gear choices more transparent. Show actual values for DR and proc rates.
DRK:- Allow Souleater's HP steal to function outside of Grit.
- Give attacks and spells performed under the Walking Dead effect additional HP steal.
- Remove evasion from DADD and increase the parry rate slightly. Allow parry procs under DADD a chance to reset reprisal's recast, as well as increasing the chance of Low Blow resets.
- A reverse Shadewalker.
- Celes' Runic/Magic Sealing Sword.
- Silence.
- Rework PvP utility.
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11-12-2016, 12:48 AMClaymore65
Dark Knight
- Living Dead: I'd like to see Living Dead simplified. Right now, it's too cumbersome to be used effectively in PUG groups, at least easily. Most of the times I try it, healers end up panicking, and just prevent me from dying in the first place, which makes the cooldown completely useless. Requiring you to die for it be effective makes it confusing, and if your healer isn't on point about healing you to full after that, then it isn't great either. It requires a lot of coordination to use effectively, requiring either voice chat, annoying macros, or well-experienced healers to do anything useful. It's fine with a well-trained team, but unlike Hallowed Ground or Homgang it's not great outside of that. Simplifying it somehow would be very helpful.
- Dark Arts Dark Dance: Change it to just increase Parry Rate even more. While yes, it can bring some good mitigation, the evasion increase is at odds with the rest of the Dark Knight's kit. Blood Price and parry procs make the evasion less effective than it should be. Ideally, we don't want our skills to clash with the rest of the build needlessly. The blind from Dark Arts Dark Passenger falls into a similar boat, although to a lesser extent.
- More Dark Arts: Dark Arts is one of the coolest mechanics Dark Knight has. Adding new functionality to skills and abilities at the cost of a heavy MP drain is unique. I'd love to see more skills, like Delirium or maybe even Plunge, gain Dark Arts effects.
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11-12-2016, 01:34 AMaleph_nullThat also happens to holmgang though, holmgang is useless if the healers keep topping you up and you never reach 1 hp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore65
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11-12-2016, 04:14 AMJpec07
I'd really like to see Paladins gain an offensive advantage from blocking an attack, to give their combat a sword-and-board feel to it (maybe make it so blocking adds a crit or SS bonus, or allows the next attack to bypass the damage reduction from ShO). I'd also like to see some love given to Sword Oath, differentiating the gameplay there (the shield just sits there on offense, which is a very poor thing, as shields can actually be very effective weapons). As such, I'd like to see combos and abilities that make more use of our shields' offensive characteristics.
Parry and the entire combat table needs to be reworked. I'm glad they're doing this.
I'd also really like it if Paladin gameplay was faster, to account for our smaller weapon. I'd really like it if GLA/PLD had a 1.5s base GCD instead of a 2.5s GCD, adjusting potency accordingly (even if it doesn't actually do more damage, I really feel like GLA/PLD should be the tank that feels the fastest in combat).
Rolling some abilities together would help my action bars a bit. Give Fight or Flight lifesteal while in Shield Oath, and a SkS buff in Sword Oath, roll the Awareness effect into Bulwark, and give us some way to proc Swiftcast to cast mitigation spells more easily (and I know some people hate it, but please don't take my Stoneskin away). -
11-12-2016, 06:57 AMTalith
WAR has everything to be a great MT right now. The reason we end up as OT is because the other jobs are not as great in the OT role.
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11-12-2016, 08:02 AMLythHigh speed and mobility are defining features of DRK gameplay. PLD feels more like you're planting your feet and trading blows, in keeping with the tower shield aesthetic. Skills like Tempered Will also reflect this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
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11-12-2016, 08:26 AMShurrikhanI'm curious as to one bit here. Removing the immense advantage of melding Strength to Fending accessories, or instead giving that level of strength by default, would certainly be a upgrade QoL-wise, community-wise, choice-wise, and so forth, and standardizing parry and block into a single "Guard" for instance would decrease counter-synergy and probably fit later-day cross-class options (if they even exist once 4.0 hits), but having the percent damage reduction increase over time seems like a reversion to what they purposely removed in ARR. If the RNG mitigation seems unreliable now, then wouldn't it be all the more so if the stat's contribution were split between both chance and strength of mitigation? Why not just have a single obvious formula for excessive percentile stats, e.g. if you have 33% block chance atop a Shelltron (133% chance), it will block for 133% its normal %DR?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
It reminds me of what was done for Critical Strike in order to keep its weight from tapering off over time (though overtuned even then), but the thing is Critical Strike has altogether different factors at play. "Guard" would be a reactive scalar, its strength increasing over time only proportionate to damage that would be taken. Both have procs, but whereas the Critical is the key stat for any attacker dependent on its procs, "Guard" would be unlikely ever to pay off over Determination, Critical, or (if fixed) Skill Speed so long as Low Blow is the only resettable counterattack ability.
Further, should percentage mitigation be all that RNG mitigation tables are capable of? The idea then is that you're causing a more 'glancing' blow each time. But we're blocking these hits straight on, and getting no more contribution percentage-wise out of blocking a giant Dragon's trying to stomp us into the ground vs. an emaciated sprite attacking us with a stick.
I keep seeing Rate vs. Rate & %DR ideas crop up here, but I have to wonder, is there something so wrong with the idea of some portion of flat mitigation that no one's willing to consider it, even as a class- or type-specific factor for RNG mitigation?
Is no one interested either in seeing multiple types of defensive stats (e.g. "Guard", "Deflection", "Evasion"), or having the original three (Determination, Critical, Speed) have impacts on defensive components, or having these sets swap between each other via stances, etc.?
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Eliminating accuracy would remove part of the benefit of bringing a tank in the first place (apart from the positional bonuses on wholly position-dependent classes/jobs), would remove such utilities as Rain of Death's evasion down (unless evasion were revised), and would mean you have one fewer tool by which to integrate certain other undermechanics.
Absolutely agreed on transparency, in all regards.
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P.S. Any thoughts on shield types? I'm guessing standardize them? -
11-12-2016, 10:56 AMLythThe 3.2 tank gear changes had some unusual effects on gear choices. In particular, having two primary attributes with a lower individual contribution to attack power (0.45 instead of 1) resulted in a much higher weighting of secondary attributes on tank gear than on other roles. This, when coupled with stats like accuracy and parry which have little to no contribution, results in many situations in which lower ilvl gear ends up being stronger than higher ilvl gear. If the goal is to make gearing choices more obvious in the expansion so that players can concentrate instead on gameplay, this is worth some consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
%DR and %Evasion stats in MMOs can easily get out of control if not kept on a tight leash. DEF/MDEF's %DR are ilvl dependent, so devs can easily place limitations on its scaling. Block's %DR is similar, in that it's an off-hand property.
The problem with Parry's %DR was that it was exclusively tied to STR. With the introduction of %100 Parry and Block moves (RI and Sheltron), STR based scaling meant that these moves could have been functioning in the 30+% DR range, instead of the 20% range, which would have put them at least on par with Vengeance and Shadow Wall, if not better.
The idea of having scaled %DR on parry is not off the table, though:
If this happens, though, I would expect to either see %DR on parry and block vary over a relatively narrow range, or to see changes to the way RI and Sheltron are implemented to give them a more consistent (i.e. fixed, physical) %DR. The latter would allow for more variation in gear (i.e more variety in shield types, rather than standardising them just to keep Sheltron in check).Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XXVIII Digest (2016/04/12)
Flat DR (typically seen on healer shielding) is an odd one, in that it can either be weaker (i.e. against large hits) or a lot stronger (i.e. against lots of small hits) than %DR. You could potentially find yourself in AoE tanking situations in which you can completely nullify damage from a lot of little mobs, depending on how it scales.
Regarding whether people would gear for proc-based defensive stats: it depends. I would like to see both DADD and Bulwark revised so that they give a chance to reset recasts of Reprisal and Shield Swipe, respectively, during their active duration. The simplest solution is to make Parry and Block weapon/off-hand properties and let people not bother about them, however.
The accuracy issue again ties into the problem of higher ilvl parry/acc pieces providing less of a performance benefit than lower level gear with crit/det/sks on it. It's more of a healer issue, though. There was a Famitsu interview translated in Reddit about 2 months ago which discussed the following:
Again, the goal seems to be to simplify gear choices so that we can concentrate on gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Famitsu
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11-12-2016, 12:28 PMJim_Berry
DRK - Soul Survivor:
Once the mob is hit with this ability, allow it to give a small amount of HP or MP on the attacker as long as the ability is active on the target.
DRK - Dark Dance:
Allow the Parry rate from Dark Dance trigger a counter for each attack parried when the target is under the "Reprisal" effect.
DRK - Dark Arts + Dark Dance:
Increase the Evasion to 100%. Right now, the 20% is still good because many enemies auto attacks would miss when the 20% procs, but 100% would be love.
PLD - Rage of Halone:
Allow this enmity to be instantly applied at the beginning of this weaponskill after being combo'd. What I mean is, after Savage Blade, the first hit of Rage of Halone should give the enmity instead of the end of the attack.
PLD - Sword Oath + Bulwark:
Each Blocked attack can have a small amount of the blocked damage reflected to the attacker. -
11-12-2016, 02:32 PMF_Maximillian
PLD-
1)Make a skill similar to blood price but restoring HP instead of MP, PLD is supposed to be the tankiest while least offensive branch of tanks we have so buffing their survival like this would be nice.
2)Make magic attacks blockable either all the time or during sheltron/bulwark.
3)Put a DoT on Flash (Since I don't think they'll outright give us damage for some reason).
4)Extend the reach of cover and make it also cover magical damage. It's a magic string already so there's no reason we can't make the magic string longer or work on magical attacks.
5)Add a reflect damage skill on successful blocks.
6)Make clemency restore a small amount of TP in sword oath instead of regaining part of the healing done (50-100 TP per cast).
7)More OGCDs in general, paladin has some of the least out of all classes. -
11-12-2016, 03:18 PMXenosan
I don't expect the battle system adjustments to be any different than 3.0s. The level cap is being increased, FFXIV stat growth system is not very progressive, so they have to force correct for the next level cap and iLVL spike just like they had to before. Not too hopeful on many creative adjustments, which is disapointing.
but new abilities!!
Dark Knight
DREAD SPIKES / DOOM SPIKES
GUILLOTINE / DIABOLICAL EYEQuote:
Dread Spikes______60sec recast, 20sec duration
- Can Parry magic
- Parry Rate +
--- Additional effect: Dark Arts has 30% chance to reset Salted Earth Cooldown
--- Additional effect in Grit: Parried attacks trigger self-heals of 50 potency.
- Parries generate stacks of Dread Spikes, at 4 stacks Dread Spikes become Doom Spikes
Doom Spikes:
-(same as Dread) and in addition:
-can Parry from the flanks (not rear)
-Parried attacks trigger 50 potency magical counter attack
*Combo finishers and Dark Arts buffed Abysmal Drain add 18 seconds to Dread/Doom
The jist of it being a 'Blood of the Dragon + Geirskogul'-esque mechanic for DRK that works parallel with native gameplay. Instead of Geirskogul DRK has a choice between utility or self-heal (but both are +DPS either personal or party), and the utility shouldn't be too hard to keep at full uptime.Quote:
Guillotine _________ (5 second recast)
* Requires Dread Spikes to use (but only Dread, cannot be used under the effect of Doom Spikes), consumes 10 seconds of buff duration
- Delivers magic attack with potency of 280, OGCD
--- Additional effect in Darkside: Grants a Dark Arts
--- Additional effect in Grit: Self-heals with potency of 1,200
Diabolical Eye ________ (shares recast with Guillotine),
* Requires Dread Spikes or Doom Spikes, consumes 10 seconds of Dread/Doom duration
- buff to self & nearby allies, all gain Diabolical Eye buff: they're next Weaponskill absorbs 100% of damage dealt, 10 second duration
- also debuffs target with diabolical eye. Enemy suffers increased vulnerability to magical Critical Hits (bonus modifier to the damage dealt of magical crits) & they cannot evade attacks (voids accuracy cap). 60sec duration
The Dread Spikes converting to Doom Spikes via a stack generating lockout is a quid pro quo mechanic. But this plays into a mechanic to diverge DRK in MT or OT. If tanking, Guillotine gets locked out and the Dread Spikes Ability has to be re-used to re-open a short window within to use Guillotine (pseudo 60 second recast for 1,200 self heal, but with more gates to handle)
this utility option is my bid for the "Healer's love DRK most" trophy.
I started doing my WAR dreams too but woah where did the time go, -
11-13-2016, 02:20 AMSaeno
Pretty interesting ideas all around. From what I gathered, the dread/doom spikes ability is like blood of the dragon for DRK except the geirskogul- like abilities have some pretty insane affects. One thing I wanted to comment on was the split between grit and darkside in some of the abilities listed. You can have both effects on at the same time, was it intentional that you can benefit from both additional affects with some of these abilities?
Also, your idea reminded me that DRK technically does not have a DPS stance like PLD and WAR does. Maybe those Grit/Darkside abilities can be split with an addition of a DPS stance? -
11-13-2016, 04:24 AMKatana190In an old thread of mine, someone made a good suggestion about Blood Weapon while in Grit. Rather then restoring MP, it would restore HP whilst in Grit, which I think would be pretty fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
I'd kinda like to see a DPS stance, as Darkside is more akin to Maim then a DPS stance. At the same time it would have to be balanced as DRK is only a little bit behind WAR on damage, and swapping between Grit and DPS Stance would be very MP consuming, providing how much MP is consumed when popping Grit. -
11-13-2016, 05:53 AMKhalithar
Ditch the accuracy stat, ditch the parry stat, combine skill speed/spell speed in to one stat. Just leave det/crit/condensed speed as the new secondaries.
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11-13-2016, 05:57 AMshao32wait what? a 20 seconds every minute of full perfect dodge skill? fuck hallowed ground DRK the new op tank of 4.0, now for real thats very op, or you made dark dance have a loooooooong recast to compensate that or its become the new best defensive skill of the game, a DRK only getting damage 40 seconds betwen 20 of pure invencibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Berry
and about darkside, is like a pseudo dps stance, the bonus give us is pretty high, and grit is pretty expensive, DRK and PLD are not made for tank stance like WAR, handle grit is pretty hard, i dont want add tank stance pld level to drk too (bcs yeah grit is on global coundown but is more easy to turn off that vs PLD getting on sword), is pretty fine like is now for me. -
11-13-2016, 09:02 AMJim_BerryYeah, my WAR comes from 2.0 where I would be MT but never dropping Defiance. Now that we have Deliverance and other stuff (Fell Cleave), it's expected for me to do damage even as an MT. Problem is, I can't, so I just stuck with PLD and DRK for MT purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talith
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11-14-2016, 01:45 PMBrian_They also MT because they're better MTs than WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talith
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11-15-2016, 05:59 PMSaenoI totally dig some of your listed suggestions and I'd like to see some of these be implemented in 4.0, like more ways to mitigate and a flash DoT, but some things did bother me a little due to how much they impede on the designs of both WAR and DRK. WAR feels more like the tank with self heals and while I understand DRK can self heal as well, DRK has to pay a lot for its self healing and often it wont be as good as what WAR has. As for the magic block/extra mit, it doesn't really seem fair to DRK for PLD to overtake the identity of another tank for the sake of making it more tanky. Yoshi commented on the status of PLD as the "best defensive tank", which I believe he meant in regards to how well it mitigates physical damage as opposed to how well DRK mitigates magic. With rage of halone, blocking, and a 10% added onto sentinel over shadow wall and vengeance, PLD tanks physical hits the best out of the 3, but I don't think yoshi meant for PLD to be the absolute king of all types of mitigation, because as it stands, it isn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by F_Maximillian
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Stance-on-Pld
^ Here's my source for what yoshi said in regards to PLD blocking magic and being the most defensive, if anyone cares to take a look.
Not entirely. The mitigation potential on WAR is insane with skills like inner beast and, if you count the thrill of battle + conva combo to be a cooldown, you then have a tank with more than just one way to mitigate damage and also many ways to do it as well. WAR is also the only tank to have unchained, something that is incredibly strong for opening in any fight and maintaining strong threat on the target for any encounter. In fact, I think when you take WARs insane self healing into consideration, its probably the best at actually tanking. What really drives WAR into the OT slot is the lack of MT exclusive abilities like Reprisal or blocking, the only real argument they have to MTing is unchained, which does happen but an unchained opener is usually followed with the PLD/DRK provoking to become the new MT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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11-16-2016, 12:33 PMBrian_
What really drives WAR into the OT slot is that PLD and DRK are better MTs. If WARs were better MTs, then groups would just bring 2 WARs. LB penalty doesn't really matter.
Both PLD and DRK have better mitigation without sacrificing any of their DPS.
For a WAR to have comparable overall mitigation, they need to rely on IB and if they're dancing to Defiance and holding / spending stacks on IB, then their DPS will not be better than DRK and possibly even PLD. A massive chunk of WAR's DPS comes from stack-efficient FCs and Deliverance up-time. Before patch 3.4, WARs were the tank that lost the most DPS while MTing / with higher tank-stance up-time. I'm not sure if the tweak to SwO changed that but I doubt it did.
In terms of mitigation, without heavy IB use, PLD and DRK are just better in fights that favor their respective strengths. PLD has Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron as their go-to CDs. DRK has Shadow Skin, Shadow Wall, and DA DM as their go-to CDs. WAR has RI, Vengeance and ToB against physical damage and just Vengeance and ToB against magic. PLD and DRK have stronger CDs on shorter recasts as well as better immunities.
WAR's self healing is nice but it's not that relevant. Equilibrium is a great skill and an actual difference maker but it's locked to Defiance so it comes with a price. The rest of WAR's self-sustain isn't really going to be the difference between life and death. At best it gives your healers a window to refresh their DoTs. -
11-16-2016, 01:46 PMSarcatica
Also to note that WAR loses less for starting pull vs DRK/PLD. WAR also has way easier time maintaining aggro lead due to how BB combo is in the DPS rotation. This is what makes WAR pulling bosses better. Another point is WAR has been in a weird spot since 2.x because of BB alone, Berserked BB has been awkward for me to keep an eye on due to the amount of spike aggro it produces which competes the said aggro against MT. There has been multiple of times where WARs could take my aggro off openers which IMO is a very bad design for OT slot in general, PLD is another culprit for this because of Savage Blade, it just feels counterintuitive to use RA combo after a swap and you get aggro back sometimes.
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11-17-2016, 04:35 AMJhett_Magnum
DRK:
Traited Salted Earth
5% chance to inflict Blight
for 24 seconds.
Effect: Magic Vulnerability.
Lv.70
Unholy (oGCD) - Deals 380 potency to a target and surrounding targets.
Dark Arts: Reduces MP consumption by 1/3. 30 sec
(Recast 60 sec) -
11-17-2016, 04:22 PMSaenoQuote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
Reducing MP reduction sounds like an amazing idea for DRK. It doesnt gain any MP outside of its internal abilities which lead to it bottoming out when your weapon/price are down, so slowing the MP depletion or reducing the cost of your dark arts would be amazing for a DRK and really fun to boot. Though the aoe potency I feel is a bit strong, maybe it could have a ricochet affect where it does less to each surrounding target? -
11-18-2016, 01:58 AMClaymore65
Yoshi P talked a bit more about some of the possible changes to Tanking abilities in a recent interview (http://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/fa...-fan-festival/ )
There's some really interesting things in there. Stuff like Provoke, and even some basic "Reduce X% Damage" cooldowns might be moved into "role based skills" that every class gets, leaving more room to make each Tanking job more unique. The UI changes might be really helpful too, such as combining Wrath/Abandon stacks into one visible meter you interact with more. Once again, these are only examples of possible changes, but it's certainly an interesting read.