The one thing I really want for Paladins

I really wish we could block magic damage. That is all.

Its the little things that would go the furthest.

Sheltron and Bulwark should enable blocking of magic attacks, but that might make them a little too fair, so we'll have to wait until 4.0 to see.

...gap closer pls

I'd actually like to contribute to clearing a dungeon faster when I pull more than 3 mobs. Literally every other job in the game has access to at least one AoE on the GCD. I really don't think an AoE Weaponskill/Spell is an unfair thing to have... is it?

Aoe weaponskill, gap closer and oGCD stun. These are what all tanks need really.

A reason to use Tempered Will.

Or just, you know, making it work where you would expect it to from the tooltip.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

A reason to use Tempered Will.

Or just, you know, making it work where you would expect it to from the tooltip.

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There are plenty of uses for it in 3.4. Cheesing forced movement stuff in Sophia EX, A10N/A10S and the dungeons is always fun.

My only problems with it are due to the 3 min cooldown and maybe the 10s duration. I think it should be a 2 min cooldown with a 15s duration.

Cover should have a shorter CD and remove the targets positional requirements. And cure should scale off the same stats as clemency when PLD uses it.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

And cure should scale off the same stats as clemency when PLD uses it.

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Though I can agree with this, Cure still suffers from the same hangup that Clemency has - a cast time. Hopefully Clemency gets a change in 4.0, though.

Flash should do damage!

just give PLD's give holy and call it a day /sarcasm

And yeah, we really need some sort of AoE something short of Circle of Scorn

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Though I can agree with this, Cure still suffers from the same hangup that Clemency has - a cast time. Hopefully Clemency gets a change in 4.0, though.

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I'm fine with the cast time, but it'd be nice if it didn't break combos.

PLD should not get a gap closer, and neither should WAR. It is balanced because DRK is the one tank that can't protect from knockback (PLD has tempered will, and WAR and holmgang)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

PLD should not get a gap closer, and neither should WAR. It is balanced because DRK is the one tank that can't protect from knockback (PLD has tempered will, and WAR and holmgang)

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I do feel that all tanks need to have a some sort of gap closer. DRK can cheese Scrapline during Faust add in A9S because of Plunge, WAR/PLD can't get that kind of result, making DRK really good once you get the hang of it. Another few uses for Plunge in current Savage are Green Charges plunging in A10S, solo tanking Laser X Sword in A11S and Temporal Stasis in A12S. Plunge is pretty much this button you want to play around to get that almost perfect uptime on boss.

Sadly still something I want to practice more myself, time to time always just using it on CD and I look dumb having to run to boss because I can't hold Plunge for 5 secs or so.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

I do feel that all tanks need to have a some sort of gap closer. DRK can cheese Scrapline during Faust add in A9S because of Plunge, WAR/PLD can't get that kind of result, making DRK really good once you get the hang of it. Another few uses for Plunge in current Savage are Green Charges plunging in A10S, solo tanking Laser X Sword in A11S and Temporal Stasis in A12S. Plunge is pretty much this button you want to play around to get that almost perfect uptime on boss.

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While I agree that plunge is good, this is not a reason for all tanks to need one. Holmgang and Tempered Will can also be used to cheese mechanics (especially on Sophia, not sure about alex as I haven't done it), which allows similar increases in uptime as plunge because the boss isn't moving around the arena as much. The solution is not to give a gap closer, but to expand on these skills to give them more uses than they currently do.

If 4.0 is doing significant overhauls to skills and toolsets then what would or wouldn't be balanced for the current game might not matter at all.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

While I agree that plunge is good, this is not a reason for all tanks to need one. Holmgang and Tempered Will can also be used to cheese mechanics (especially on Sophia, not sure about alex as I haven't done it), which allows similar increases in uptime as plunge because the boss isn't moving around the arena as much. The solution is not to give a gap closer, but to expand on these skills to give them more uses than they currently do.

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In A10S, Tempered Will and Holmgang can be used to cheese any short ranged red segment of a Single/Double/Triple Charge which usually leads to no need to disengage from the boss.

The biggest limits to Tempered Will use in most fights is that knockbacks are either completely avoidable at no loss of DpS or come multiple times in a three minute period.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

In A10S, Tempered Will and Holmgang can be used to cheese any short ranged red segment of a Single/Double/Triple Charge which usually leads to no need to disengage from the boss.

The biggest limits to Tempered Will use in most fights is that knockbacks are either completely avoidable at no loss of DpS or come multiple times in a three minute period.

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But you probably would rather use holmgang to cheese the tank prey mechanic so you don't have to disengage during the tank swap. I think running away from the prey would cost you more gcds than disengaging for the "out" charge.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The biggest limits to Tempered Will use in most fights is that knockbacks come multiple times in a three minute period.

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This is the biggest issue I find with tempered will, it really isn't so great as to warrant a cooldown as long as sentinel's. And any situation where it can be used tactically happens more times than it's CD. The only time I ever use tempered will tactically was shiva if she targeted me with the knockback arrow, since the chances of that happening multiple times was slim. And Sophia for the knockback + thunder II, since it only happens once.

Its just one of those moves that's too situational. It either needs to be improved to warrant the CD or have the CD reduced to improve the situational usability.

E.G. If it removed all esunable debuffs and made you immune to all esunable debuffs for the duration including draw in and knockback, that would immediately make it worth the 3min CD and vastly improve its usability outside of niche mechanics.

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Originally Posted by LilLemay

just give PLD's give holy and call it a day /sarcasm

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YOUR WISH IS GRANTED. MP COST IS THE SAME.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140218140259

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

But you probably would rather use holmgang to cheese the tank prey mechanic so you don't have to disengage during the tank swap. I think running away from the prey would cost you more gcds than disengaging for the "out" charge.

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Was just pointing out that the anti-knockback does have use in A10S as the conversation was focused on Tempered Will.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

YOUR WISH IS GRANTED. MP COST IS THE SAME.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140218140259

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I'd actually be very okay with that.

Eternal Hallowed Ground.

On a more serious note:

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

This is the biggest issue I find with tempered will, it really isn't so great as to warrant a cooldown as long as sentinel's.

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I 100% agree with this, and actually I think Tempered Will should either be another big damage reduction CD, or be on a similar recast timer as Plunge, with its recast increased for PvP or its duration decreased. Really there's absolutely no reason for it to be on a 3 min CD. If PLD could use it every 30-40 secs and Cover also had a lower recast, PLD's utility to continuously cheese knockback mechanics and help other party members cheese them as well would be amazing. At least on the trials that have forced movement mechanics, which really aren't even that many... I don't think any of those has even come up in Alexander savage at all, at least in the same make-or-break magnitudes that some trials have.

Basically rework all situational skills PLD has. Add DRK's in as well. Oh and WAR's kit to OT better, pls nerf BB combo. LUL

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I'm fine with the cast time, but it'd be nice if it didn't break combos.

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that and prevent you from blocking.

I don't think i'd want shield bash off gcd though. it'd be nice but at the same time it'd end up having a reduced duration / increased recast in line with warriors.

the one thingi really want is a genuine use for most of our toolkit. things like tempered will, cover and divine viel for example have very little impact on anything. partly down to the way they work and partly down to the cooldowns they have

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Originally Posted by Dzian

divine viel for example have very little impact on anything.

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Divine Veil mostly suffers from a case of "nice but not necessary." A 30s 3k+ shield on the rest of the party every 90s is nothing to sneeze at with proper timing. There are a lot of points where it can be used to help out the healers, but since most healers are not expecting it and not every Paladin is using it very often it tends to get underutilized.

As a healer, I love strategically placed Divine Veils. They can seriously reduce healing requirements and in case of some slightly weaker AoEs completely nullify healing requirements. It's not something you can just randomly toss out, though, you have to find the best way to fit Divine Veil in so that healers don't have to bother about healing at all.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Divine Veil mostly suffers from a case of "nice but not necessary." A 30s 3k+ shield on the rest of the party every 90s is nothing to sneeze at with proper timing. There are a lot of points where it can be used to help out the healers, but since most healers are not expecting it and not every Paladin is using it very often it tends to get underutilized.

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That's the exact problem with half off a paladins tool kit it's something ive bought up a few times. "nice but not necessary" in a remotely decent group most of the toolkit does nothing, this is partly why plds were in such a bad place and got some pretty heavy buffs. it has all these defensive skills but the only thing that's ever important is the deeps. which is why it ended up being an incredibly undesirable tank for a long time. its defensive power was nice not but worthless and unnecessary. in many cases it still is. only now its offence has been buffed a fair bit.

also something else I thought of. back to the topic at hand. one thing i'd really like for paladins is raise to work in battle when cross classed......

If DV is nice but not necessary then Path, Reprisal, Eye, and basically anything but the bare minimum to clear content after massive over-gearing is nice but not necessary.

Is this what it has come down to? People who still don't / can't clear content even with over gearing calling skills that were incredibly strong and useful in early prog nice but not necessary?

There are some real complaints about stuff like cover and tempered will not doing enough but DV is not part of PLD's problem. It's one of PLD's main strengths.

Is it a bit clunky to use? Yea. So are all the other tank mitigation tools. Delirium and Path are the third hits of combos and that requires you to really understand GCD windows in a fight. Reprisal requires you to proc it and hold it ahead of when you need it. None of the tank mitigation tools are easy to "apply."

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Originally Posted by Brian_

There are some real complaints about stuff like cover and tempered will not doing enough but DV is not part of PLD's problem. It's one of PLD's main strengths.
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I feel like if they made Cover just have a much larger range it'd be so much easier to use, instead of having to hit it then basically stand on-top of my target for it to work, and I've played with the thought of maybe having Divine Veil not need the heal to proc it anymore? I.e the paladin hits it and the shield is immediately applied? A wider range on DV wouldn't hurt too.

As far as Tempered Will I think it just needs a shorter CD, maybe 60s or something, for a 20s duration?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

If DV is nice but not necessary then Path, Reprisal, Eye, and basically anything but the bare minimum to clear content after massive over-gearing is nice but not necessary.

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Please understand that I said Divine Veil was underutilized. As in not utilized to its current full capabilities. This is partially the result of healers pre-casting AoE heals during big full party attacks and then following it up with another AoE heal after. DV can sometimes remove the need for the follow up AoE but the healers will still cast their heal on muscle memory making the shield nice to have but often wasted even though it was useful.

Far to few Paladins use Divine Veil just like how far to few Warriors apply Storm's Path. In far to many pug EX primals have I seen Warriors keeping Eye up but never applying Path.

As for Delirium... Dragon Kick makes the debuff unnecessary if you have a Monk and since Delirium is the second highest DpS combo ender for the Dark Knight it should be used pretty much any time the combo is not being ended by a DA Souleater. Heck its the only tank Mitigation debuff that is not a dps loss so should be expect to be up pretty close to continuously.

If you're playing PLD in prog, your healers should not only know where every usage of DV occurs, but should be involved early on in deciding when exactly it should be used. DV vs. Reprisal placement is one of the single biggest factors in deciding whether to go PLD or DRK on a particular fight, sometimes even moreso than the damage type. I feel like the players who enjoy PLD the most are the ones who know how to take advantage of its situational bag of tricks to find a cheese for every occasion. When it all clicks together in the same fight, it's brilliant.

being that paladin is Tank would be nice if they had a desperation move such as something similar to second wind that doesn't require mp and call it last stand. :P that or perhaps dual wielding swords like in 11 lol

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Please understand that I said Divine Veil was underutilized.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Divine Veil mostly suffers from a case of "nice but not necessary."

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

DV can sometimes remove the need for the follow up AoE but the healers will still cast their heal on muscle memory making the shield nice to have but often wasted even though it was useful.

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It doesn't matter what type of follow-up healing there is if everyone is dead before because they didn't have sufficient shielding and mitigation to survive the hit.

You bring up Path. Okay, the only people who will say Path is bad, underutilized, or otherwise are the people who got carried to clears by their gear. They should not be talking about job / skill balance because their perception is skewed by gear balance. Everyone that knows the truth about Path knows that it's one of the best skills in the game. The same is true for DV. DV is not underutilized when in early prog you are planning your raid mitigation around skills like DV.

Like I said, if your argument is that a skill is underutilized because it's not necessary in EX Primals after over gearing, then you can say maybe 90% of the skills in the game can be underutilized.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

It doesn't matter what type of follow-up healing there is if everyone is dead before because they didn't have sufficient shielding and mitigation to survive the hit.

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Any party wide attack that a Warrior/Paladin (and in theory Paladin/Dark Knight) composition can survive is survivable by a Warrior/Dark Knight composition that does not have Divine Veil. If the Healers can handle a heal check during for a Warrior/Dark Knight composition then the can usually handle the same check with a Warrior/Paladin composition without needing the Paladin to use Divine Veil. This leads to lazy Paladins not using the ability because they see that the party does not need it to complete content. I don't like this mentality but I admit that the mentality does exist.

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You bring up Path. Okay, the only people who will say Path is bad, underutilized, or otherwise are the people who got carried to clears by their gear. They should not be talking about job / skill balance because their perception is skewed by gear balance. Everyone that knows the truth about Path knows that it's one of the best skills in the game. The same is true for DV. DV is not underutilized when in early prog you are planning your raid mitigation around skills like DV.

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You were the one who brought up Path first and I full agree that it is one of the best defensive abilities in the game, but I believe that the general non-raiding population doesn't use Path or Divine Veil as much as they should/could use it because they can't really see how good they are.

Most raiders are not the ones underutilizing abilities like Path, DV and Tempered Will and are often the ones wishing that recast timers were shorter so that they can use them more.

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Like I said, if your argument is that a skill is underutilized because it's not necessary in EX Primals after over gearing, then you can say maybe 90% of the skills in the game can be underutilized.

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No, its underutilized because to many of players playing Paladins fail to use Divine Veil when the could/should use it.

In far to many Sophia EX parties just after 3.4 released (i.e. before overgearing, aka during progression) did I end up being the only Paladin using Divine Veil to help mitigate raid wide damage and far to few of the Warriors I was paired with would use Path to help lighten the load on the healers. This sort of stuff is why I feel that they are underutilized.

Recognising when to use those mitigation skills is what most players lack. Some wars just use path all the time, some don't even use it. On the same side, some PLD advocates having str debuff up for as much as possible, on the other end, some don't even want to use it if possible.

This becomes preferences that are often fallacies. All these skills in the black and white benefit way more on coordinated groups. This reasoning being most of the damage ingame aren't fatal, making it somewhat 'needed' mostly for struggling players. The better your group is, the less 'needed' those mitigation skills will be, since you exclusively use those for the more important parts. Hence the "nice to have, but not needed" mentality.

You should be able to explain why a certain skill is useful to use on certain encounters, especially if you are not dead without those skills AND there is no follow-up damages coming.

You also need to explain why and how are the top 1% are able to have ridiculous dps stance uptime on both tanks and healers and still able to do mechanics just as well and actually better. You might as well have those skills up 100% if it helps lessen healers burden, right? Grit/Defiance/ShO also help a lot btw. /s

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Any party wide attack that a Warrior/Paladin (and in theory Paladin/Dark Knight) composition can survive is survivable by a Warrior/Dark Knight composition that does not have Divine Veil. If the Healers can handle a heal check during for a Warrior/Dark Knight composition then the can usually handle the same check with a Warrior/Paladin composition without needing the Paladin to use Divine Veil.

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DRK/WAR comps can survive that eHP check because of Reprisal's 10% damage reduction. You either have the mitigation from Reprisal + Path, DV + Path, or DV + Reprisal. The tanks are balanced in terms of raid mitigation. If PLDs didn't have or didn't use DV, then no, the healers wouldn't be able to handle the same eHP check.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

You were the one who brought up Path first and I full agree that it is one of the best defensive abilities in the game, but I believe that the general non-raiding population doesn't use Path or Divine Veil as much as they should/could use it because they can't really see how good they are.

In far to many Sophia EX parties just after 3.4 released (i.e. before overgearing, aka during progression) did I end up being the only Paladin using Divine Veil to help mitigate raid wide damage and far to few of the Warriors I was paired with would use Path to help lighten the load on the healers. This sort of stuff is why I feel that they are underutilized.

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Content like Sophia EX and bad players who don't know how to play their job should not be the standard used judge whether or not skills are underutilized and should not be justification for why an ability needs to change. I could clear that content and out perform those players using <10 skills. Does that say something about the other >20 skills? No.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

DRK/WAR comps can survive that eHP check because of Reprisal's 10% damage reduction. You either have the mitigation from Reprisal + Path, DV + Path, or DV + Reprisal. The tanks are balanced in terms of raid mitigation. If PLDs didn't have or didn't use DV, then no, the healers wouldn't be able to handle the same eHP check.

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Wrong. Take for example Divine Judgement in A12N and A12S and similar limit break attacks that appear throughout the game, you can not mitigate the damage from the attack with either Path or Reprisal due to being unable to hit Alexander Prime with either attack less than 20s before the attack goes off. On the other hand the Paladin can help mitigate each and everyone of those limitbreak attacks by proper use of Divine Veil's shields.

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Content like Sophia EX and bad players who don't know how to play their job should not be the standard used judge whether or not skills are underutilized and should not be justification for why an ability needs to change. I could clear that content and out perform those players using <10 skills. Does that say something about the other >20 skills? No.

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Actually they are the exactly the players you need to check with to find out why they are not using (i.e. underutilizing) an ability because there is a cognitive gap somewhere.

High end players will show designers how abilities are best used for max output while average players will show average use for average effect and give them a better idea of how abilities are being used/not used. The average player is why many of the 4.0 changes are happening not the world first hardcore endgame raider.