So are we *ever* getting the planned list of Class/Ability changes?

They're well over two-three weeks overdue from when you originally promised them, and if you're planning to release them so close to the tentative patch release date, you will not have the time to consider player feedback of your planned significant changes.

The playerbase has gone an extremely long time now without any REAL information. For most MMO's, I would say things like timely patch notes are a privilege and not a right. However, given that you plan to start charging us for this product next month and we still have no idea exactly what new content/changes are being planned for 1.20, we should have already had these patch notes.

Communicating these ideas with us should be your second highest priority behind actually developing the game. At this rate, we'll have the class change list in our hands for a week before the patch itself, and that's unacceptable.

delays happen. and i wouldn't worry about time for feedback. i have seen a thread go from 0 to 100 posts in less than a day. and such big news will be talked about alot. if we get the info a week before patch that would be plenty of time for feedback

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Originally Posted by grandm

delays happen. and i wouldn't worry about time for feedback. i have seen a thread go from 0 to 100 posts in less than a day. and such big news will be talked about alot. if we get the info a week before patch that would be plenty of time for feedback

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Feedback has to actually be considered and evaluated for development changes to happen. These changes have to be tested internally and discussed by devs before they're implemented. If you think one week is enough time for player feedback to utilized for a patch, you're dead wrong.

Well duh people are going to fill up a topic with complaints really fast.

The real problem is that the longer the devs put off giving us info, the less time they have to fix things before the patch goes live.

It's not like our assumptions would help in any shape or form. We can't provide any valuable feedback based on the information provided if we can't experience the changes by ourselves. It's just text of changes that happen to affect every class. Good luck trying to figure out possible (and accurate) gameplay scenarios out of that mess.

I just want the damn info because I want to know what they will change. It was never about contributing.

Don't make me link that stupid MRD thread from back when 1.19 notes came out claiming doom & gloom. We are going to be headless chickens this time as well.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

It's not like our assumptions would help in any shape or form. We can't provide any valuable feedback based on the information provided if we can't experience the changes by ourselves. It's just text of changes that happen to affect every class. Good luck trying to figure out possible (and accurate) gameplay scenarios out of that mess.

I just want the damn info because I want to know what they will change. It was never about contributing.

Don't make me link that stupid MRD thread from back when 1.19 notes came out claiming doom & gloom. We are going to be headless chickens this time as well.

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yep this is all true, when they say they want our feedback, what they mean is they could do with a good laugh when they are on a coffee break. the release of these notes are courtesy, nothing more

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Originally Posted by Ronik

They're nearly two weeks overdue from when you originally promised them, and if you're planning to release them so close to the tentative patch release date, you will not have the time to consider player feedback of your planned significant changes.

The playerbase has gone an extremely long time now without any REAL information. For most MMO's, I would say things like timely patch notes are a privilege and not a right. However, given that you plan to start charging us for this product next month and we still have no idea exactly what new content/changes are being planned for 1.20, we should have already had these patch notes.

Communicating these ideas with us should be your second highest priority behind actually developing the game. At this rate, we'll have the class change list in our hands for a week before the patch itself, and that's unacceptable.

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+1 for this. I want to know what the heck I'm getting before I give Square my money, ESPECIALLY if Square isn't charging me the half price they claim they were "looking into". If they stayed F2P then definitely, no problems on the delays, I'll wait all day, no need to rush, but the deadline for P2P hasn't been set, nor has a date for 1.20 been set, just vague promises of "late November to early December". It's already past the halfway mark for November - we need that info early since now they believe that their MMO deserves the same amount of money as other complete MMOs.

Can we please at least get a "the notes will be out on xx day and it'll go over to P2P on yy day" so that we can plan accordingly?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

It's not like our assumptions would help in any shape or form. We can't provide any valuable feedback based on the information provided if we can't experience the changes by ourselves. It's just text of changes that happen to affect every class. Good luck trying to figure out possible (and accurate) gameplay scenarios out of that mess.

I just want the damn info because I want to know what they will change. It was never about contributing.

Don't make me link that stupid MRD thread from back when 1.19 notes came out claiming doom & gloom. We are going to be headless chickens this time as well.

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Really man? If you think that we can't experience the changes, then why are you even asking for early info? What difference does it make to you, if you can't conceptualize the changes until they're live and in game?

The rest of us actually could conceptualize what the changes will do if we were given proper info and numbers; and some of us can even work with fuzzier details. There might be changes that don't need numbers or seeing things in action for us to go "hey, that's not what should be happening there".

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Really man? If you think that we can't experience the changes, then why are you even asking for early info?

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I want to know what they will change.

In general sense we can probably make up an idea of what will happen in-game based on our previous experiences and whatever mumbo jumbo theories we come up with, but you are fooling yourself if you think the devs were looking for any sweeping overhaul-feedback of that caliber. It was never about feedback being the deciding factor for the big picture. That's something the devs have to figure out themselves.

We can help with the details- and that's something we don't know before the patch is live and we get to test things out.

In the meantime, people will just make up bullshit based on unknown variables- of which there are TONS because everything action-wise is being changed all at once.

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Originally Posted by Bahn

It's already past the halfway mark for November

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And this is supposed to mean?

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we need that info early since now they believe that their MMO deserves the same amount of money as other complete MMOs.

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Or how about this:

You play and pay a sub, or you don't. It's that simple. The info will be posted when it's posted. Other companies stagger info for their own reasons.

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Can we please at least get a "the notes will be out on xx day and it'll go over to P2P on yy day"

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Yoshida already stated you can experience 1.20 before choosing to pay or not, therefore this would be pointless since logically, when he says that it means you won't be charged until sometime after 1.20, there's nothing to "plan" for, you experience 1.20, if you like the changes you pay your sub, if you don't..you don't pay.

There's two things that we can provide feedback on.

One is design changes that don't require fine grained details; like "actions can no longer be queued" or some other major change that visibly and greatly affects the dynamic of a class.

The other is balance changes that do require numbers and greater detail. This is something that we COULD damn well provide feedback on, if the devs started including that detail both in-game (how damage is calculated) and out side of the game in planned changes to damage/healing/whatever (i.e. 'CON spells cost 10% less mana' versus 'CON spells MP cost has been reduced').

Not only that, but having your players test a patch after it has gone live is the absolute worst way to develop any MMO and it's a precedent that died back in 2004 when WOW came out. This is why PTR's have been created and why patch notes for any serious MMO are constantly discussed and revealed as early as possible.

@Jennestia

So your argument is that the devs have no obligation to maintain their promises on timely delivery of information to the customers who will be supporting this game with actual cash for the next year? You're somehow AGAINST them releasing the patch notes they already told us they would give us two weeks ago, and you're AGAINST player feedback for major, sweeping changes to existing classes and abilities?

I'm not really following you here.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Not only that, but having your players test a patch after it has gone live is the absolute worst way to develop any MMO and it's a precedent that died back in 2004 when WOW came out.

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Sarcasm? Because every MMO incorporates hotfixes after major patches goes live, which in essence, means everyone play tested them and still found bugs and glitches, therefore the need for hotfixes, which Blizzard does as well.

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Originally Posted by Ronik

@Jennestia

So your argument is that the devs have no obligation to maintain their promises on timely delivery of information to the customers who will be supporting this game with actual cash for the next year?

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What is "timely"? This is subjective from person to person, therefore it's a bit hard to say when they're "slacking", especially when you take into consideration the amount of work that's being done with this game.

Be lucky they're even going to share it with us? If they wanted they could wait till the day of patch but they've already said it would be out before then. Unless it's literally killing you, then waiting longer isn't going to cause any harm.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Sarcasm? Because every MMO incorporates hotfixes after major patches goes live, which in essence, means everyone play tested them and still found bugs and glitches, therefore the need for hotfixes, which Blizzard does as well.

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Nice try, but hotfixes are never balance changes or broad design changes. They are small fixes for critical bugs that escaped through the testing phase.

Wish they wouldn't have broken the announcement up into two parts. The speculation is driving me insane.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Sarcasm? Because every MMO incorporates hotfixes after major patches goes live, which in essence, means everyone play tested them and still found bugs and glitches, therefore the need for hotfixes, which Blizzard does as well.

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So you're honestly saying that PTR's are useless because there are still bugs to be found after the official patch releases? You're really making absolutely no sense here. I don't think you understand exactly how much crap is found in PTRs and fixed before live releases. I'm not saying FFXIV should have PTR servers for patches (not yet, anyway - maybe down the line with 2.0), but to argue that PTR's are useless is flat-out ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Nice try, but hotfixes are never balance changes or broad design changes. They are small fixes for critical bugs that escaped through the testing phase.

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Based on what you said, you essentially stated WoW releases perfect patches which means there's no need for hotfixes, which means WoW should be free of hotfixes, as well as any MMORPG that was released after 2004, yet I'm pretty sure every MMO I've played since 2004 (WoW included) utilizes hotfix patching. Otherwise, it's not something that died out in 2004, players of any MMO are still the biggest "testers" when it comes to patches because players almost always find bugs and glitches that QA can miss.

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

Be lucky they're even going to share it with us? If they wanted they could wait till the day of patch but they've already said it would be out before then. Unless it's literally killing you, then waiting longer isn't going to cause any harm.

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If they expect us to pay for a game which is still largely broken and sparse with content, then we have an absolute right to timely information and an opportunity to provide our feedback on the changes contained in that information.

It's no longer a privilege to receive this kind of communication - we are the customers who will be keeping this game alive for the next year while SE cleans up their blunder, and we damn well better have promises made to us fulfilled at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ronik

If they expect us to pay for a game which is still largely broken and sparse with content, then we have an absolute right to timely information and an opportunity to provide our feedback on the changes contained in that information.

It's no longer a privilege to receive this kind of communication - we are the customers who will be keeping this game alive for the next year while SE cleans up their blunder, and we damn well better have promises made to us fulfilled at this point.

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Um, you have no right actually. Delays happen. It's also going to be a huge list of changes that are being translated for EVERY region the game supports and they want it all to go up at the same time instead of JP>NA>EU, etc.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Not only that, but having your players test a patch after it has gone live is the absolute worst way to develop any MMO and it's a precedent that died back in 2004 when WOW came out. This is why PTR's have been created and why patch notes for any serious MMO are constantly discussed and revealed as early as possible.

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Yes, but do you understand that there is no PTR for this game, no comprehensive stat calculation information and most importantly we have nothing to base the action change notes on even if they were comprehensive. Even the largest of MMO's tend to tweak their actions (not replace them) and only some at time, so you have something to compare the changes to. Plus, they can be actually tested on the test realm, and all stat calculations have been long since figured out.

We can not compare the changes to anything because no feature or mechanic currently exists in-game that we could use to make any informed assumptions. All we have is the action list with descriptions and stat mechanics we haven't figured out to make sense of any of it.

I will say it again. We can't provide any valuable feedback based on the information provided if we can't experience the changes by ourselves. Your "bu- bu- but in other games" speech really does not mean anything in the context of action change patch notes in FFXIV with the information we have available to us as of November 2011. Unless you think that they will suddenly spill the beans on stat calculations in the same post while announcing the opening of test realm the day after.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Based on what you said, you essentially stated WoW releases perfect patches which means there's no need for hotfixes, which means WoW should be free of hotfixes, as well as any MMORPG that was released after 2004, yet I'm pretty sure every MMO I've played since 2004 (WoW included) utilizes hotfix patching. Otherwise, it's not something that died out in 2004, players of any MMO are still the biggest "testers" when it comes to patches because players almost always find bugs and glitches that QA can miss.

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Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said that you should never let your players test a patch after it goes live, not that PTRs will produce perfect patches. You have your players test a patch on a separate server and work with them to iron out balance changes, design changes, and bugs that your own internal QA team has missed. You can never get a 100% guarantee that a patch will please everyone in terms of changes and being bug free, but using a PTR you roll out a much more robust and higher quality patch.

Hotfixes are small patches that are applied directly to live systems with no testing in order to fix a critical bug or issue. These will still exist with PTRs, but the amount of non-critical bugs and stupid design choices that your patch rolls out with is dramatically reduced.

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

Um, you have no right actually. Delays happen. It's also going to be a huge list of changes that are being translated for EVERY region the game supports and they want it all to go up at the same time instead of JP>NA>EU, etc.

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No, we DO have a right. We're going to be paying for an unfinished product as soon as a few weeks from now, and without us this game does NOT have a chance to make it to version 2.0. The only thing keeping many of us here is the promise of what the game might become, and if the dev team expects us to stick around/pay actual money to see the game eventually realize it's potential they need to start delivering on promises made to the playerbase in a timely manner.

And yes, I'm well aware that patch notes need to be translated. However, SE is far more aware than we are of how long that process takes and I'm sure includes it in their considerations when they say "Hey, we're releasing the patch notes next Tuesday!"

Fact is, the release of this information has been delayed and ignored multiple times at this point. If it's going to take until the end of November to release it, the dev team should've said "It'll be in your hands by the end of November". Delaying stuff constantly only builds mistrust between the playerbase and the devs, and since trust is the only thing keeping most of us here in the first place, it's definitely unacceptable.

It confuses me why people would make topics on this when the week isn't even over yet. Sure the patch notes on the repair system isn't all inriguing but it's nice to hear that the NPCs will finally be able to repair jewlery lol. As for the concept itself, the info last week gave us an idea of what they want to do in terms of how dynamic the changes would be. From there we can speculate what might change but overall it should make sense as to why they are taking their time to release the information and finalizing it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post440696

As posted here it is commented that they are finalizing the information which was about a week ago so it is possible that we could see the information tomorrow but if not, then just wait. If they aren't releasing the information it's because they aren't 100% sure that's what they want each classes abilities and traits to be. Once the list is done they'll release so til then just wait it out a bit more, once it is released everyone can comment and rage on what they like or don't like about it lol.

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It confuses me why people would make topics on this when the week isn't even over yet.

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"The week" was over 3 weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

"The week" was over 3 weeks ago.

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Class reforms part 1 was posted on the 11th. The stuff they didn't post related directly to what's being rebalanced and shuffled around, which obviously means it will take more time to finalize in terms of presentation because they could write off all the changes, but find out that something wasn't properly tested or they flubbed on saving the data and have to retract their statement.

I think the problem with this whole situation is Yoshida saying he doesn't want to post info on anything unless he's absolutely sure, yet people complained about Tanaka posting info and things always end up being different or we got "lied to."

Anytime before December 15th could be classified as the "first" part of December since it's technically before "Mid Month." Businesses release a tentative schedule for a reason. If they know they can't release something by the first part of that schedule, they still have time to make the "deadline" due to the freedom such a schedule gives.

It'll get released when it's ready to be. Plenty of other good games out at the moment. You don't have to be playing FF14. I'd like to be playing 1.20 as much as everyone else, I just have other things to occupy my time until that day arrives.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

I think the problem with this whole situation is Yoshida saying he doesn't want to post info on anything unless he's absolutely sure, yet people complained about Tanaka posting info and things always end up being different or we got "lied to."

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Well damn, I wish he made use of that philosophy when he mentioned posting the class change lists when 1.19 goes live.

Or when he said it would take them one more week to get the information prepared, which then translated to one week + 4 days of the second week (Nov. 11th), except we only got half of the information (which he didn't even mention during his earlier speech). Oh, and the information didn't even include the class change list, the list that we were promised was coming. Instead we got some general changes topic that, while nice, is not the class change list.

I think the problem with this whole situation is that your argument is as solid as the ice you're standing on. Trying to spin every criticism into some "oh, there is an issue I agree, but it's because of *insert some noble intention here* that the issue even exists" doesn't always work.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

except we only got half of the information (which he didn't even mention during his earlier speech)..

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Pretty sure it was stated by time the info was ready it was going to be broken into 2 parts.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Pretty sure it was stated by time the info was ready it was going to be broken into 2 parts.

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Yes, after we had waited "one week" and then some (which was said after a month of silence beyond the initial schedule) we got this statement and after this statement it took days to get the first part actually out there. The part that didn't include the action changes.

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Originally Posted by Ronik

They're nearly two weeks overdue from when you originally promised them, and if you're planning to release them so close to the tentative patch release date, you will not have the time to consider player feedback of your planned significant changes.

The playerbase has gone an extremely long time now without any REAL information. For most MMO's, I would say things like timely patch notes are a privilege and not a right. However, given that you plan to start charging us for this product next month and we still have no idea exactly what new content/changes are being planned for 1.20, we should have already had these patch notes.

Communicating these ideas with us should be your second highest priority behind actually developing the game. At this rate, we'll have the class change list in our hands for a week before the patch itself, and that's unacceptable.

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Actually, they said they'd be released when 1.19 went live, so they're months over due. If future 1.x content is going to be designed like Ifrit where high level abilities are required to survive an attack, I'd like to get started on obtaining key abilities now.

I certainly hope tomorrow is the day. But SE has proved true that they have a generous definition of "soon."

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Originally Posted by MizoreShirayuki

Anytime before December 15th could be classified as the "first" part of December since it's technically before "Mid Month." Businesses release a tentative schedule for a reason. If they know they can't release something by the first part of that schedule, they still have time to make the "deadline" due to the freedom such a schedule gives.

It'll get released when it's ready to be. Plenty of other good games out at the moment. You don't have to be playing FF14. I'd like to be playing 1.20 as much as everyone else, I just have other things to occupy my time until that day arrives.

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I would like to again point back to Ronik's key issues. The problem with these tentative dates is that we still don't know, with less than a month remaining, when 1.20 will come out relative to when it goes P2P. The later they delay the notes and the longer they take to program the class changes, the less time they could have to get feedback from the community about it.

I'm pretty sure they're capable of saving a lot of time and headaches (and tl;dr forum posts) for both them and us if they list what they're going to change now so they'd have more than enough time to take our player feedback and implement it into the final 1.20, instead of implementing fixes to undo the possible damage that 1.20 might have done *after* it is released.

But I do agree, there are other games to play - SWTOR is right around the corner and I believe they're doing another beta test weekend in a couple of weeks, and lots of great games came out in the past few weeks, so definitely you have a point there.

Class info gonna be out tomorrow, so they can read everyone's usual bitching and moaning thru out the weekend. :)

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Originally Posted by Firon

Class info gonna be out tomorrow, so they can read everyone's usual bitching and moaning thru out the weekend. :)

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And that is probably the issue. The sent out the first notes and as the forums was blowing up of people not understanding and unable to figure things out. So they looked at the second part and thought hmmm maybe we should look this over more and see if we can make it more understandable... just then one of the guys posts the armor dye changes which causes more misunderstanding and threads popping up not know what is going on. So they look at the second part again and think hmmm maybe we should rewrite it again so its even more understandable so the people on the forums get it.

And thus time passes and days turn into week and weeks into months... and the seasons change from fall into winter... and winter gives way into spring and spring changes into summer... and summer skips right over fall and goes into winter and they were forced to eat Robins minstrels...

No but really you get it right... /sigh

The cat is bemused =-.-=

My thoughts:

Major changes (changes to game play algorithms, skill removal/adding, changes to spells/abilities functions, changes to recipes):
Should be announced as a collective whole at least two weeks prior to the patch update

Minor changes (new dungeons, aesthetic changes to the world/cities/dungeons/players, new dye colors, new items, new minigames (ie: Chocobo breeding/racing, housing and the like):
Should be announced on the day of at the very least two days prior to the patch update

Rolling Information (Generic non-detailed information)
On a weekly basis, nothing in detail like the above two patch notes should be, could be very general as in "Look forward to this new XYZ Dungeon! More in later update notes!" stuff along that line...teasers I should say.

The first two types of information need to be VERY DETAILED (and I don't mean how to clear the dungeon detailed, I'm not looking for a strategy guide) but detailed in the sense of there should be very little room for confusion (which happens all the time it seems on these forums with the information they release) Also if I was the person making these notes I would suggest to my boss to stop using "Early/Mid/Late XXX Month" phrases, instead ask "What is the time frame in which we wish to release this patch?" and from that give a more detailed date so it could read something like

"Expect this new dungeon to go live sometime between November 15th and December 10th!*"
*If any delays are incurred players will be notified via lodestone."

That way you remove a lot of the doom speakers, because they form on the lack of concise information, it is a really simple fix, Square-Enix, its time to be a little less translucent (at least your not fully opaque anymore!)

I tought it was obvious they won't bother with fan feedback before we try patch 1.20.

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Originally Posted by Ronik

At this rate, we'll have the class change list in our hands for a week before the patch itself, and that's unacceptable.

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At this point, I would prefer they give us whatever they have come up with and "forget" about player feedback for now, rather than starting the snowball of patch delays that will put 2.0 sometime in 2013...

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Class reforms part 1 was posted on the 11th. The stuff they didn't post related directly to what's being rebalanced and shuffled around, which obviously means it will take more time to finalize in terms of presentation because they could write off all the changes, but find out that something wasn't properly tested or they flubbed on saving the data and have to retract their statement.

I think the problem with this whole situation is Yoshida saying he doesn't want to post info on anything unless he's absolutely sure, yet people complained about Tanaka posting info and things always end up being different or we got "lied to."

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Considering they said we'd have it when 1.19 went live, it's been a while. . .

I'm amazed at the entitled attitude of so many of the players. Do any of you actually work for a business, do you understand how these things work? To demand, and say that something is, "unacceptable?" when you haven't paid so much as a penny!

I have worked for and managed a few different types of businesses. Here is a newsflash: The customer isn't always right, and believing such is an asinine point of view. Sometimes a customer has no viable right to information, sometimes they wouldn't know what to do with it, sometimes a company simply isn't ready to give it.

Do you think Tempur-Pedic is ever going to tell you what's in that foam? Do you think you will ever know what special sauce McDonald's uses or Coca-Cola is? Do you think Apple is going to divulge info on the iPhone 5 or 6 or whatever they are up to before they are ready to divulge? How about Hollywood? They going to divulge script info or endings?

Are you ready for that info? No. Unacceptable is this imbecilic attitude that you are owed something, heck, anything. Even when a paying customer, do you know what they owe you? Jack, they don't have to give you anything.

Incidentally, as far as the, "customer is always right," in a business that sells an environment or an experience there is a largely unknown formula. Its called addition by subtraction. Basically, businesses that sell these events or environs know that there are some customers that are so undesirable, or unpleasant, or that simply make doing the job so untenable that not having them is actually better for business than having them would be. Maybe people need to learn to be better customers, and quit making meaningless demands.

Has it been confirmed that 1.20 will begin pay to play services? I was under the impression that 1.20 would come out, as well as some jobs, before pay to play which would have been closer to march 2012. Maybe I read the road map incorrectly..

please confirm/deny