So with the prospect of 4.0 redoing the battle system and some skills will become Role specific, I was wondering what skills you think should be removed from a class/job and be placed into the pool of abilities for common use. That being said there should be some criteria to follow. First any skills or abilities listed in the lore book for a job should be considered cannon to just that job, so skills/abilities that would seem obsolete or useful for other jobs, like Ley Lines or Leeches, must stay. Second, the abilities cannot be as cut and dry as give it to everyone give it to these jobs not these, so for that a system needs to be in place. I will present said system below. Finally, and abilities/traits that are adjusted to this system should come with an explaination as to why, its an ability everyone expects, these jobs get it but one doesn't, even though that job provides the same function, etc. And with that lets start brainstorming. I will be adding my own ideas later, i cant right now, since I am on my phone.
Here is the list of the criteria for a skill for each class/job. So as long as you classify a skill as one or more things then that skill can be used by those classes/jobs.
Categories:
Primary Role: Tank, DPS, Healer
Disciple: War, Magic
Battle Style: Offensive, Defensive, Support
Type of Attacks: Physical, Caster
Distance: Melee, Ranged
Classes/Jobs will be given one classification from each category. Skills will be given at least one category as well. In order for a Class/Job to be able to use said skill they must meet all of the requirements. For instance, Provoke is classified as a Tank skill, so only a Class/Job classified as a Tank can use it. Transversely, Raging Strikes is a DPS & Ranged Skill, so a Class/Job must be a DPS and use Ranged attacks; so while Monk might meet the DPS, they aren't Ranged, and Scholar is Ranged but not a DPS, they cannot use the Skill.
TANKS
Gladiator/Paladin: Tank, War, Defensive, Physical, Melee
Marauder/Warrior: Tank, War, Offensive, Physical, Melee
Dark Knight: Tank, War, Offensive, Physical, Melee
DPS
Pugilist/Monk: DPS, War, Offensive, Physical, Melee
Lancer/Dragoon: DPS, War, Offensive, Physical, Melee
Rogue/Ninja: DPS, War, Offensive, Physical, Melee
Archer/Bard: DPS, War, Support, Physical, Ranged
Machinist: DPS, War, Support, Physical, Ranged
Thaumaturge/Black Mage: DPS, Magic, Offensive, Caster, Ranged
Arcanist/Summoner: DPS, Magic, Support, Caster, Ranged
HEALER
Conjurer/White Mage: Healer, Magic, Defensive, Caster, Ranged
Scholar: Healer, Magic, Defensive, Caster, Ranged
Astrologian: Healer, Magic, Defensive, Caster, Ranged
Abilities From Tanks
Paladin loses 3 skills
Flash: Tank (This skill can be replaced with a proper AoE skill for GLD/PLD)
Convalescence: Tank (Possibly replaced with a new Shield skill that an heal HP for each attack sustained)
Provoke: Tank (This could be replaced with a new OGCD attack skill)
Warrior loses 3 skills
Foresight: War, Melee (this should be replaced with a Skill similar to Vengence but with less Damage/Protection)
Bloodbath: War, Melee (Not Sure what this could be replaced with)
Mercy Stroke: Tank (A new OGCD skill that attacks everyone at once)
Dark Knight loses 2 skills (DRK really doesn't need to share any skills but its only fair, maybe)
Reprisal: Tank (Not Sure what this could be replaced with)
Blood Price: Tank (Not Sure what this could be replaced with)
Abilities From DPS
Monk loses 4 skills
Featherfoot: War, Melee
Second Wind: War, DPS
Internal Release: War
Mantra: War, DPS
Dragoon loses 2 skills
Invigorate: War
Blood for Blood: War, DPS
Ninja loses 1 skills (Similar to DRK NIN was designed to not really need to share any skills but Goad is the biggest skill to possibly share)
Goad: War, DPS, Melee
Bard loses 4 skills
Raging Strikes: DPS, Ranged
Hawk's Eye: War, DPS, Ranged
Quelling Strikes: DPS, Ranged
Barrage: War, DPS, Ranged
Machinist loses 1 skills (Same deal built solid)
Reassemble: War, DPS, Ranged
Black Mage loses 3 skills
Blizzard II: Magic, Ranged
Swiftcast: Magic, Ranged
Convert: Magic, DPS
Summoner loses 3 skills
Physick: Magic
Virus: Magic, Ranged
Eye for an Eye: Magic, Ranged
Abilities From Healers
White Mage loses 5 skills (this is tough since Cure and Aero are intrigal to the WHM but cure could be used for Pally and Aero for the other healers)
Cure: Defensive
Aero: Magic, Defensive, Ranged
Cleric Stance: Healer
Protect: Defensive
Stoneskin: Defensive
Scholar (see Summoner)
Astrologian loses 3 skills (same deal AST was build to be self contained)
Lightspeed: Healer
Disable: Magic, Ranged
Synastry: Healer
Updates are slowly underway, enjoy.
What Skills Should Become Role Specific.
Printable View
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10-31-2016, 06:13 AMEloahWhat Skills Should Become Role Specific.
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10-31-2016, 06:23 AMErikMynhier
I would do the moogle quest all over again for Reprisal to be a "TANK" skill. Not truly super useful, but a fun skill.
Obvious candidates I think would be TANK: Provoke, Convalescence, Feather Foot, Blood Price, Fight or Flight. -
10-31-2016, 06:31 AMDzianFight or flight isn't really a role specific Skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
the only ones that are role specific really would be the almost manadatory skills like provoke, portect and cleric stance. skills you simply can't do your job properly without.
a warrior/dark for example could do just fine without convalescence. it'd be pretty borked without provoke though -
10-31-2016, 06:42 AMErikMynhierLogically you are correct, however we only know what we as players see as role skills SE may think differently. I anticipate both logical skills as well as a number of "WTF?" skills. What would be a salt storm of endless madness will be if Swiftcast is marked as Magic DPS and healers lose it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
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10-31-2016, 06:45 AMmyahele
Most important I can think of:
Tanks: Provoke
Healers and Casters: Swiftcast
Physical DPS: Invigorate. Maybe a self-heal like 2nd wind since MCH don't have access to that -
10-31-2016, 07:09 AMTyrn
Provoke for all tanks.
Protect for all healers.
Cleric Stance for all healers.
Swiftcast for all magic users.
Invigorate for all physical dps.
Second Wind for all dps. -
10-31-2016, 08:09 AMUltimatecalibur
The only skills that are guaranteed to become role specific addidtional skills are those that are required to complete content. Provoke (which is needed in any content where a tank swap occurs) and Cleric Stance (needed so healers can complete the DpS checks required for solo content) are pretty much guaranteed to be remove from Gladiator and Conjurer to become role skills.
Every other "must have" additional skill is nice but not necessary and may or may not end up in the role pools.
It is quite possible that the role specific pool has skills that may be weaker than those cross-class skills gained by leveling up other classes/jobs and share cooldown with their superior skills to prevent stacking of them. -
10-31-2016, 08:15 AMEloah
I still cant adjust the specifics for each job but i can when i get home, but a skill like reprisal or fight or flight coukd qualify for this topic. Its skills like the esuna skills and the tank shield that sadly cannot become this for possible lore reasons. Leeches is written into the lore book as a Scholar only skill; though adding traits for each one to make it unique might be nice. Similarly, Leylines, would be cool for any caster, but since its in the lore for BLM its out of the running. But keep it up, this coukd help the devs more than we think.
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10-31-2016, 08:26 AMBlood-Aki
Swift cast for mages is pretty set in stone, i use it far to much for most things to do without it at this point.
cleric stance for healers as well, (well sch and ast) but dpsing without it is pretty much a complete waste of mp.
Provoke for tanks, i do not think any proper tank would level without it. -
10-31-2016, 08:42 AMEloah
I should also add, feel free to talk about and skills you feel should be pruned entirely, like surecast is next to useless. Most attacks that are worth avoiding would make you cancel the cast in general, where as, and aoe you choose to get hit by you'd finish the cast anyway. I suggest making it a new BLM exclusive skill that lowers the cast time of the higher tier spells.
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10-31-2016, 08:45 AMSylkis
My opinion only
TANK:
*Provoke
*Convalescence
*Foresight
*Rampart (Can nerf some war mitigation skills for this one)
Healer:
*Cure
*Esuna
*Raise
*Swiftcast
*Surecast
*Stoneskin (+Stoneskin II)
*Protect
*Stone 1 (or some other Heavy inflicting)
*Cleric Stance (How can I forget)
CASTER:
*Swiftcast
*Surecast
*Blizzard 2
*Raging Strikes
PHYSICAL DPS:
*Blood for Blood
*Invigorate
*Hawk's Eye
*Second Wind
*Mantra
These skills can then be enhanced by job specific traits. -
10-31-2016, 09:53 AMRyujin99I really hadn't given this issue much thought, but this list got me thinking a bit, so I'll make some comments and other suggestions of my own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylkis
Tank:
Provoke - given the existence of tank swaps and the fact that all three tanks can currently cross-class Provoke, I agree this should definitely be a skill shared by all tank roles.
Convalescence - this seems like a likely candidate to share among all roles, but I don't think it's an absolute necessity.
Foresight - certainly a useful cross-class, but for reasons discussed in the next bullet, I'd hardly be upset if this is not chosen as a role skill.
Rampart (Can nerf some war mitigation skills for this one) - This I strongly disagree with. For starters, both PLD and DRK already have a Rampart equivalent (PLD actually has Rampart, while DRK has Shadowskin which has the exact same effect and duration). Further, I don't think any class/job-specific abilities should be nerfed to make room for a cross-class/role-skill.
Also Foresight is a very close analog to Rampart, though not an exact copy like Shadowskin (ie. learned at the same level, same cooldown time, same effect duration, and same effect scale (20%)). So I would propose something more like:
-make foresight a non-cross-class skill and possibly change foresight's effect to be an exact clone of Rampart
-eliminate Shadowskin and Foresight then give all three tank classes Rampart at Level 2
-leave Foresight and Rampart more or less as they currently are
Bloodbath - given that this is currently a cross-class available to all tanks I suggest that it is about as likely to be a future shared role skill as Convalescence. Certainly not a necessity, but would be a nice touch I think.
Mercy Stroke - another skill worth consideration.
Awareness - while certainly in 2.x this was a pretty terrible cross-class skill, it has pretty good synergy with Raw Intuition on WAR currently.
Healer:
A number of the suggested abilities here already exist in some form or another, but each healer's version of these abilities are slightly different from one-another. While it may seem like a minor thing to gripe about, I would prefer to keep these abilities distinct from one-another for the sake of traits or other job-to-job differences.
Cure - all three healing jobs currently have a healing spell learned below level 5 with a heal potency of 400 (equivalent to Cure); however, the MP cost, modifying traits, and level at which the spell is learned differ from job to job. Taking numbers and traits at level 60 on the main job using the skill:
(WHM) Cure: Level 2, MP cost 442, 15% chance next Cure II(lv 30) costs 0 MP, which chains with Cure II proc to reduce Cure III cost to 0 MP (currently can be cross-classed by PLD, SCH, and AST as well as many classes)
(SCH) Physick: Level 4, MP cost 442, no traits, but natively available to SMN (currently can be cross-classed by WHM and BLM as well as several classes)
(AST) Benefic: Level 2, MP cost 353, 15% chance next Benefic II(lv 26) costs 0 MP (can't be cross-classed)
Esuna - as with Cure, all 3 healing jobs currently learn a spell with an equivalent spell effect and base MP cost to Esuna, though none of these can be cross-classed. At level 60:
(WHM) Esuna: Level 18, MP cost 618, 20% chance to cost 0 MP
(SCH) Leeches: Level 40, MP cost 618, no traits (note Selene's Fey Caress is an AOE 60s cooldown ailment purge usable when level synched to 20 or higher)
(AST) Exalted Detriment: Level 18, MP cost 618, no traits
Raise - all healers learn a spell with the same effect and base MP cost at Level 60.
(WHM) Raise: Level 12, MP cost 2652, Enhanced Raise trait allows use in battle at Level 28 (currently can be cross-classed by PLD, SCH, and AST as well as some classes)
(SCH) Resurrection: Level 22, MP cost 2652, no trait required for use in battle (cannot be cross-classed)
(AST) Ascend: Level 12, MP cost 2652, Enhanced Ascension trait allows use in battle at level 20 (cannot be cross-classed)
Swiftcast - This I wholly agree with due to the need to Raise party members in battle.
Surecast - While this makes sense at first glance, the rarity with which I have used it, seen others use it, or hear of cases where it is helpful to use it leads me to question its practical usefulness.
Stoneskin (+Stoneskin II) - I like Stoneskin, but I'm not sure how much I really want it to be a role ability, especially since both healers other than WHM have some other means of applying damage shields to party members even if those shields don't have nearly the maximum duration. As for Stoneskin II, as nice as it can be for quality of life reasons, I don't think it really needs to be shared among all healers and I think it's fine to let that be a unique point of the WHM job.
Protect - Given that the trait buffing Protect was already consolidated into the base spell seems like a strong indication that it will be one of the future role-skills.
Stone 1 (or some other Heavy inflicting) - All healers, and in fact all ranged classes, have access to this already through a variety of abilities. At level 60:
(WHM) Stone: Level 1, MP cost 353, 140 potency, 40% heavy for 20s
(SCH) Miasma: Level 10, MP cost 442, 20 potency + 30 potency x 24s DOT, 40% heavy for 24s (note: also has MiasmaII which is an AOE + DOT including the 40% heavy for 15s; both Miasma spells shared with SMN)
(AST) Stella: Level 22, MP cost 442, 100 potency, 40% heavy for 20s
Eye for an Eye - handy cd to throw on a tank even if it doesn't have the reduced cd or party-spread potential it gains when used by a SCH.
Cleric Stance - as has been mentioned by several others, if you plan on hurting whatever you're trying to damage it's pretty much required for healers.
CASTER:
Personally, I feel like the current cross-class pool for Casters is pretty awful. The only two things I think are really nice currently are Raging Strikes and Swiftcast. The rest either feel like patches for job deficiencies (Blizzard II) or a waste of space like Virus, Physick, Hawk's Eye, and Ruin.
Swiftcast - as with healers, I think Swiftcast is pretty much guaranteed for Casters, though certainly not quite as necessary. (but boy do I get some mileage out of it)
Surecast - Same opinion as I have including it for healers.
Blizzard 2 - while I think all casters should have some sort of basic AOE spell, I really don't like Blizzard 2 being the spell of choice here (I mean it's so expensive). That said, much as I dislike it, it seems likely to stay that way.
Raging Strikes - no argument here. I like Raging Strikes, and I'd like to see it continue to be available as a Casting DPS role skill.
Thunder - the irony that the cost is the same as Blizzard II is not lost on me. All the same, I'd like to see Thunder back on SMN (any any future Casting jobs), but I'm certainly not getting my hopes up.
Something new - in the hypothetical scenario where we get an additional spell-using DPS job (Red mage perhaps?), maybe something being added with the new job could become a role skill shared among all casters.
Quelling Strikes - ridiculous as it is, I get more use out of this on my SMN than I realistically should. More importantly, perhaps, it's currently the only real threat management available to either of the current Casting DPS jobs.
PHYSICAL DPS:
Side note, but it's not really fair to dump all physical DPS into the same boat. BRD and MCH function far more similarly to SMN and BLM than they do to the melee DPS. On top of that, the fact that some of them use Dex while others use Strength as their base stat can also make lumping them all together a bit misleading. So really we have three distinct groups of physical DPS currently (melee Str, melee Dex, and range Dex). If we take this as an analog to the way a lot of tabletop RPGs work (melee damage can be based on Str or Dex, range damage is always based on Dex), it seems likely that we will only see these three groups going forward as well.
Blood for Blood - not much to say here other than to voice my agreement; however, if there is differentiation between melee and ranged physical DPS, then it might be fair to swap this for Raging Strikes for ranged jobs.
Invigorate - not much to say here either. It's practically a necessity for long fights or AOE situations.
Hawk's Eye - the Dex bonus is 100% worthless for any Str-based class or job since secondary effects of Dex (parry bonuses IIRC) were removed. This leaves the guaranteed hits, which I don't think is worth using when it's only up for 20 seconds on a 90s cooldown, especially since DPS classes shouldn't be missing enemies in the first place.
On the other hand, for Dex-based jobs (range physical and NIN currently) Hawk's Eye is a bit better than Raging Strikes when you account for the lower cooldown time.
Second Wind - seems like a probable candidate, though personally I am rather partial to Bloodbath for more sustained healing.
Mantra - maybe if the role-skill version was equivalent (or at least comparable) to the buffed version of it MNK currently gets, but in its base form Mantra is a pretty awful cross-class ability.
Internal Release - not bad for a 60s cooldown even without the buffs MNK gets to it, so I'd like to think it would be a likely candidate for a role skill.
Bloodbath - actually quite useful for self-healing as a melee DPS. Definitely a better option than Mantra at present.
Mercy Stroke - another useful skill for self-preservation that might not be a bad option for melee DPS roles.
Featherfoot or Keen Flurry - unlike the previous 2 suggestions these two mitigate damage rather than heal damage after its taken. Not sure how likely it is or isn't, but they seem like possible considerations as well.
Raging Strikes - currently available to MCH from cross-class and a skill native to BRD/ARC. Seems like a realistic expectation in the future, at least for ranged physical DPS. -
10-31-2016, 10:05 AMGravton
I'd rather see surecast allow your next cast to be used on the move. Hard casting res or summon would benefit. Fight or Flight on a war would be crazy to see. The one thing I never really understood was in a cross class system you wouldn't be able to select any ability you want from a class. I understand the job crystal could limit my paladin from knowing my drg's skills. But if my warrior of light is a paladin why does he forget everything he learned as a lancer? Yes the weapons are different but some of the skills don't need that weapon.
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10-31-2016, 10:30 AMCabalabob
I'm more wondering if we'll get new low level skills to replace what we lose.
E.G. Since GLA is probably losing provoke to role skills, will we get something in its place? I'd love for GLA to get its own version of cure that scales off physical damage rather than magic like clemency. Maybe first aid?
Maybe CNJ could get something to raise accuracy in place of cleric's stance. And some kind of mitigation tool instead of protect?
It would kinda suck if other jobs get to free up a cross class while the jobs who had the skills originally just lose some of their personal toolkit. -
10-31-2016, 11:44 AMErikMynhierI believe Clemency works off our Attack rating. If someone knows different let me know, but I think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
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10-31-2016, 11:49 AMKikoten
I'm excited and anxious at the same time. I'm starting to hit 60 with more jobs, and all too soon everything I know about jobbing is going to go bye-bye... hopefully for the better. I really, really hope that with the 4.0 combat changes, I don't go into a huge fight going, "Shit, where's X spell? Where's Y ability?"
That'd probably make me cancel my subscription. Don't make it confusing, SE, pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaa... *gasp for air* ...aaaaaase? -
10-31-2016, 11:56 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHClemency scales off attack power, and has nothing to do with the Magic stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
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10-31-2016, 12:23 PMShurrikhan
Preferably none. Just give the role-required skills for free on the roles that need them, and have them take up a cross-class slot on those they're niche and/or optional for.
So far the first category only really seems to include Cleric Stance and Provoke.
Though, I'd also be fine with seeing certain essential but less impactful skills such as Raging Strikes, Swiftcast, and Blood for Blood be gained after x levels acquired in the given role.
Apart from those two skills every benefit that could come from removing those options from every class not of that "role" can be gained by simply improving the UI and through embedded tips...
...and without the negatives of... stripping away all possible off-role gameplay and whatever fun might come with it.
I'd really rather just see certain cross-class skills improved in their usability and breadth of affinities than any of these role-restrictive revisions, apart from making Cleric Stance and Provoke automatic acquisitions for their roles, at levels 1 and 15-22 respectively. -
10-31-2016, 12:26 PMEulIt's depend of damage indeed. I tried Clemency with Fight or Flight and the potency increased.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
On topic, I just want those debuff skill like AST's Stella is either become useful at 4.0 or remove it at all (Or just become pvp skill). -
10-31-2016, 12:27 PMCabalabobBad punctuation I meant to say a cure that works off physical stats like clemency does. As in a cheap MP cost, low level 400 potency cure because cross class cure is garbage because it works off magic stats that GLA/PLD doesn't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikMynhier
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10-31-2016, 02:21 PMCosmicKirby
Speaking from a MCH perspective:
-Second Wind is a Must, Mch is the only class/job in the game with literally no option to heal themselves except for a potion.
-Invigorate being baseline opens up the few DPS classes that don't have it to culling their buttons a bit, gaining more space for new things.
-I feel Raging strikes should either become universal, or they need to consider separating the DPS roles as they are (Melee, Ranged, Magic)
- As is, making Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye baseline would be a massive dps increase for some jobs, whereas others (Like MCH) Would be getting no dps increase at all for the exchange and would have to be compensated for elsewhere.
- On a similar note, why are Featherfoot and Keen Flurry here?
- On another related note: Why do SMN, BRD, and MCH have no defensive options? (Sans the aforementioned Keen Flurry) Combine this with BRD and MCH having mediocre defense for both magical and physical, whereas every other job has at least one being relatively high.
-Add a new skill that let's all physical dps Sprint without burning TP, you can make it less effective even, but it's just a boon that Casters have that makes little to no sense to keep exclusive to them. (This stands out TERRIBLY on MCH, as it is their sole option for a movement skill, as Blank is supposed to replace Repelling Shot) -
10-31-2016, 05:14 PMHyoMinPark
I don't think that job specific skills should be available for any sort of role sharing.
Example: Blood Price. While both WAR and PLD use MP (mostly for flash, but also for Clemency for PLD), I do not think this justifies them being able to use Blood Price. Their MP management is minimal at best, where as DRK requires constant awareness when it comes to their MP, and a lot of their attack skills (examples: Unleash, Unmend, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, Abysmal Drain) require MP usage. I just can't find any justification in sharing Blood Price with the other tanks. And, I know people dislike using Lore as a reason for restriction, but Blood Price does not at all fit in with the lore of a PLD, and very loosely with WAR. Plus, both WAR and PLD can be affected by MP refreshes (Ewer or Mage's), where as DRK has to turn off Darkside (and effectively lose their most valuable and potent skills) to be affected. Hence, why Blood Price is a DRK's best friend when it comes to MP management.
With regards to AST, I really wish they would allow AST to cross class Eye for an Eye. I never understood why AST can cross class Protect, Stoneskin, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast, etc., but not Eye for an Eye, where as WHM is able to, and I believe BLM can as well (I don't normally play BLM, so correct me if I'm wrong).
Can't say much for MCH since I haven't touched that job. I do think it's silly that they can't cross-class Second Wind, where as their support counterpart BRD can (but perhaps that's because obtaining BRD also requires a level 15 pugilist).
I am all for roles sharing core skills/buffs (Provoke, Swiftcast, Cleric Stance, Invigorate, Second Wind, Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, Blood for Blood, etc.), but I can't really get behind them sharing skills that are job (read: JOB, not CLASS) specific. Because then, why bother having the variety of different jobs if they can just use a bunch of skills from another job? Idk. That's how I see it anyways. I'm sure others have differing opinions. :3 -
11-01-2016, 04:21 AMShurrikhanI don't think there was any info given on job skills becoming cross-class-able.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
AST lacks E4E because at the moment each job gets only two class cross-class sources, and E4E was less a loss than Swiftcast (THM) or Cleric Stance and Stoneskin (CNJ). It's the same for Machinist; if you want Second Wind, you lose Blood for Blood and Invigorate or Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, and Hawkeye. We may see that limitation changed out to separate affinities on each ability, rather than source (sharing) classes, where the Additional Skills UI is no longer sorted by class but instead shows all Additional Skills the class or job may equip all at once (along with where to get them), but for now the two xClasses per job system is the reason.
- Even if, say, the MCH had the highest raid dps contribution of any job in the game? Which it does in an all-physical comp? I'm not saying that its potential contribution should in any way forbid that, but let's go ahead and consider that it's about the least painful cross-class cut-off it could have, and that the job is technically doing fine without it. What mechanically forced use of Second Wind could a shield not cover?Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
- Making a skill baseline has zero effect on button count. It just means you get and equip the necessary skill earlier. If the cross-class pool is not reduced from 5 to 4 to compensate, which would slightly reduce your options in the few cases in which Invigorate would not have been necessary, then it actually increases the button count, by one.
- At present, melee have access to two skills which are arguably more "melee-like" in that they recharge faster (albeit with a more minor benefit), and one of them has an element of risk.
- It would be a massive dps increase (by which I really mean a little over a 2.2% increase) only to those who do not currently have access to it. If you mean "passive" then it would be a dps loss to the otherwise stacked use of the ability in the high-dynamics jobs who can presently use it.
- Because they're viable options, in irregular situations, to the few jobs who can use them. They could be a lot better.
- One because it's a caster with a floating rock pet that provides little personal synergy. The second has three defensives. And the last because of the 2 cross-class classes limitation.
- Just revise Sprint itself. To make a new skill just to make using Sprint feasible would be to take up two button slots for the effect of one, and without even the potentially enjoyable button-flow of other redundant skills like Power Surge. -
11-01-2016, 09:52 AMAmetrine
Looking at the OP, I wouldn't want Synastry to go into the role skill pool as it's heavily tied to AST as their most powerful heal. It just feels like you'd be taking a key part of AST's kit away when the other healers have their own high powered heals.
Otherwise, I think all DPS should be given a Quelling Strikes, Blood for Blood, and Raging Strikes, all tanks get a Provoke, all TP dependant classes get Imvigorate, all Healers gain Divine Seal, all mages gain Swiftcast, and everyone gain some kind of haste CD.
That's all I can think of. -
11-01-2016, 02:06 PMHyoMinPark
There was nothing about job skills become cross-class skills. Just that the OP suggested taking Blood Price and Reprisal from
DRKs and making them shared among tanks. While I understand they were trying to be fair and have each tank contribute something to the pool of shared skills, I still disagree about job skills being shared, and question the use Blood Price would have for the other two tanks. That's where I was going with my statement. Not saying that SE said job skills could be chosen among the shared skills. -
11-01-2016, 04:17 PMCosmicKirbyThere are times where being able to heal my self even slightly more than a potion would have saved me from unavoidable damage. Given my relatively low defenses as a MCH and complete inability to heal compared to others, WHAT is the point? Not 'why' can't I heal, that answer is technically obvious. Why was the decision made to not give MCH the option in particular? They could have easily combined numerous skills together thus giving them the 'space' to give them their own self heal as a job skill, they chose not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Honestly, I want to see Hypercharge Overhauled significantly. Most of the MCH's power comes from it, and it's a binary boring ability to use. It's so powerful that it prevents the rest of their kit from being too useful/good/interesting because otherwise MCH would be too good.
I think you misunderstand. Baseline, I meant to make it baseline so as to avoid having to cross class it in the firstplace. I think a large rework to TP functionality in general would go a long way to differentiating the physical dps classes. Rather than MNK being the sole job to worry about TP through a method other than Invigorate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I don't think just adding the cross class skills as is would help the system feel rewarding or interesting. If 4/5 slots are just obvious, the system may as well not even exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I think it was obvious that I meant this would effect the classes that do not already have them. MCH is basically forced to cross class three big DPS cooldowns for their rotation, B4B, Raging Strikes, and Hawk's Eye, making any of those role specific would be no boon to them, they already have them, that's the problem with these skills for MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
In raids the most likely thing to kill a DPS player is unavoidable magic damage. These cooldowns do not mitigate this type of damage at all. Shade Shift has a practical application for multiple situations, Featherfoot and Keen Flurry do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
SMN doesn't use Titan in any content that can be considered difficult. (And I think anything worth complaining about with the system as is, only begins to reach that point in difficult content)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
BRD has the 2 that are mostly useless, and Second Wind which is nice but is barely a defensive cooldown,
MCH is the main problem here.
Why do no other DPS classes have abilities like Fist of Stone, Mana Wall, Shade Shift, or even Apocatastasis? Actual defensive options that you can use in response to damage? Instead Square thinks stuff like Feint or Haymaker are somehow acceptable, despite being literally worthless in most content, as things are immune to slow.
Eh, yeah, on second thought just revise sprint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Yes, Hypercharge is pretty much the single most powerful, overbuffed, absurdly useful skill in the game in some raid comps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-01-2016, 04:37 PMSylkisThe intention was to remove duplicate skills with the same effect, that's why rampart, cure and raise etc are there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryujin99
Not only to remove bloat but if a new job came in they would probably need that skill.
This would be the exact reason why it should be a role skill - Remove rampart and shadowskin and give all the tanks rampartQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryujin99
Keep the traits to the corresponding jobs, keep Cure to the base role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryujin99
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11-01-2016, 04:43 PMShurrikhanYou can have 2 of 3 physical dps source classes. No more.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
Archer: Raging Strikes, Hawk Eye, Quelling Strikes
Dragoon: Invigorate, Blood for Blood, Keen Flurry
Monk: Mantra, Featherfoot, Haymaker, Second Wind
Do you really want to sacrifice either of the above sets for an extra, long-CD potion?
The decision by which you did not get access to Second Wind was obvious, and MCHs all around would be in far greater uproar if it wasn't the choice made.
The decision to limit each job to two classes' worth of additional skills, however, is less obvious.
That can still go in any of three ways. Do you mean it's baked into each job passively, by new native mechanics or versions of the skill, or that each job simply gets the skill automatically?Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
I never said just adding cross-class skills would make any system more interesting; though I'm not of the opinion it wouldn't, either. I implied that giving Raging Strikes to all classes would only further homogenize them, and a reason for why the current cross-class skills for melee are limited to Blood for Blood and Internal Release rather than the caster-standard Raging Strikes and Quelling Strikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
Roughly 4/5 are obvious for standard content. By the time you do anything less standard, that number may well decrease. In either case, that still leaves at least one worthwhile option. So why remove that too?Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
What makes Shade Shift practical is that it's reliable mitigation. Shade Shift CANNOT block magic either. It absorbs physical damage equal to 20% of the caster's health, a bit more on average than an untraited Second Wind but without the ability to crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
Because the developers determined that they carry enough utility without those personal survival tools. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicKirby
And for what classes are you weighing the use of Feint and Haymaker? Dragoon, Feint's source class, has a native defense buff vs. physical damage comparable to Fists of Earth. Feint actually sees the most use from ranged classes, for which it's far more useful than on its source class during WM/GB. The only other two classes with access have said Fists of Earth and Shade Shift. Haymaker is generally a waste of space, but it useful to Bards on gaze-heavy fights like Thordan for an empowered and instant low-TP attack. Neither is being sold as a defensive, especially given that anyone who has access to either also has access to either Keen Flurry or Featherfoot and Second Wind (the reliable one, but with no effect on max eHP). -
11-01-2016, 09:27 PMJunseiKei
I'd love to see Stoneskin II become a role skill. Considering you can only use it outside of combat, there's no point to locking it behind white mage exclusively.
Synastry, however, I don't think should become a role skill, nor should lightspeed. Considering the reason you get the skill according to job quests, it makes no sense for the other healers to have it, plus it's one of two buffs that really set astrologian apart from the other healers. Excluding the card system. I don't want the healers to be just the same thing with differently named skills. Otherwise, make the fairy accessible to all healers plus their subskills. (I'm not actually saying to do that; just a comparison to how silly it is.) Astrologian is also very self contained, even taking disable from astrologian upsets the balance between the three current healers.
Adding certain skills, as listed by the OP, make certain classes incredibly over powered. IE: Barrage added to machinist because of roles; machinist will become the superior ranged class because of how it will stack with Wildfire. Wildfire is essentially a machinist barrage. Yet, bard cannot pick up anything that would equate to that same amount of damage. Reassemble is good, but it is not barrage + wildfire good. A warrior with raw intuition would have incredible reprisal procs, while dark knight loses something that makes it unique.
Classes should still be diverse with what they have, with role skills becoming things that are simply necessary to accomplish a fight. Not because that skill looks cool or would be useful to have.
TL;DR: Please keep the overall class power balance in mind when speculating or suggesting what skills 'should' become role skills. -
11-02-2016, 09:47 AMShurrikhanQuoted for truth and wisdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunseiKei