Question to the WARs

As you all know, we are moving away from the sub-class system and going to a role category in terms of obtaining other job's skills. Internal Release is a Mnk skill that is attached to a dps class. How do the Wars feel about either:
A) losing IR to the dps category
Or
B) the other 2 tanks gaining IR from the tank category

Would rather have option B but losing IR wouldn't be the end of the world.

Just like losing some dps due to str/vit rework back in 3.2, I think most of us will just deal with it and play with whatever we have.

There's another option as well. If skills like Foresight, Mercy Stroke, and Bloodbath get moved off WAR into a common pool of tank cross-class skills, you can always move an IR-like buff into the main WAR skill list in their place. Alternatively, you could bake the effect into Berserk.

I was looking at it differently. I don't think SE is just going to give abilities to players, that doesn't sound like them at all. Just giving abilities away instead of having the player work for them?I still think you are going to have to unlock the skill to put it in the role action pool. If they took those abilities away from jobs what would you unlock at lvl 15 (what ever level IR is) what would unlock in its place? Would you even unlock anything? Would SE give us new abilities from 60-70 and new abilities pre 50? That sounds like a lot. Also you would then be taking the ability from mnk for war. Or would both jobs have to unlock IR?

I love IR.. but It's okay to lose it. Though who's to say we don't get something else? Maybe we'll all share Fight or Flight, and we can stack that with Berserk :P

My impression is they are adding a role-centric skill pool, not necessarily removing the cross classes.

But then the very generic skills like Provoke, Protect, Swiftcast, Cleric Stance will be moved into this pool, with all former owners given new skills in their place. IIRC non of the aforementioned abilities are traited (swiftcast? not in game), meaning there is no benefit to PLD/WHM/BLM committing precious class action slots to owning them.

I didn't really think of IR being one of the cross classes placed in the generic pool. Isn't IR traited? That would be a relative nerf to monk, and the impression I'm getting is they're doing this to buff certain classes, not hurt any.

But I'm probably wrong, was terrible at 3.0 speculation too. (but to answer your question, B of course)

Get rid of the useless buttons for tanks, the skill bloat was already a problem with some DPS classes, tank cooldowns/stances are really pushing it, let alone what's going to happen with 4.0

Get rid of combo starters like Hard Slash, Heavy Swing, and Fast Blade
Combine Foresight, Bloodbath, and Conval into one skill
Get rid of vestigial crossclasses like IR, Awareness, Stoneskin, etc

More class skills please! I wont be satisfied until i can map at least 30+ keys and be in full control

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Combine Foresight, Bloodbath, and Conval into one skill
Get rid of vestigial crossclasses like IR, Awareness, Stoneskin, etc

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These ideas are awful, and none of what you listed can possibly count as "vestigial." Bloodbath and Convalescence don't interact, work better when paired with other skills, and don't have any interplay with Foresight. Awareness actually has a lot of utility if paired with abilities that increase your block or parry chance. Stoneskin is damn powerful on a PLD who uses it skillfully, and if you are a WAR without Internal Release, you're doing it wrong.

The only thing you said that I can agree with is taking the enmity moves off the cross-class tree.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

As you all know, we are moving away from the sub-class system and going to a role category in terms of obtaining other job's skills.

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I'm late to the party here, but source?

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'm late to the party here, but source?

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I don't have a direct link, but it was mentioned during the Vegas Fanfest Live Letter preview of Stormblood. Look it up, the reddit thread should still be around!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cuv4E0pW8AAr41J.jpg

They didn't really say much about it, just that cross-class skills would stop being cross-class and would now be categorized per role.

Or something.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

These ideas are awful, and none of what you listed can possibly count as "vestigial."
The only thing you said that I can agree with is taking the enmity moves off the cross-class tree.

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Bloodbath, Conval and Foresight are terrible or situational cooldowns alone, merging them because they're all crossclassable is just fine. Make it 50% lifesteal, 20% boosted healing, and 10% mitigation for 20s(120s CD as PLD/DRK, 90s as WAR) and it's done.

Stoneskin is a joke skill, Awareness is only useful in a handful of gimmick instances, and IR is only taken because there's nothing else that boosts WAR DPS, and it's paired with Berserk every time anyways. Removing them wouldn't change the classes much at all.

And no, I mean removing combo starters entirely. They're clunky and unfun, cutting them all will slim down the tank skillsets by a massive degree.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Bloodbath, Conval and Foresight are terrible or situational cooldowns alone, merging them because they're all crossclassable is just fine. Make it 50% lifesteal, 20% boosted healing, and 10% mitigation for 20s(120s CD as PLD/DRK, 90s as WAR) and it's done.

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I want to use Bloodbath with Berserk for big burst healing with Fell Cleave or Overpower+Decimate. I want to use Convalescence with Thrill of Battle to replace Defiance. I want to use Foresight combined with Raw Intuition for more physical mitigation. I want to do those all at different times and combining them would stop that. On A12S I use Convalescence around the second Defamation so my SCH can use Deployment Tactics, then I want to use Vengeance+Bloodbath+Berserk on my time gate add and then RI+Foresight for the second buster. You want to combine 3 completely different skills with different uses into one skill and that's a horrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Launched

I want to do those all at different times and combining them would stop that.

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No, it wouldn't. On WAR, all those instances are within at least 90s of each other, making the skills have laughable usefulness individually. They're mediocre cooldowns when used alone, combining them all would just give you another Rampart/Shadowskin/Raw Int tier skill to use. Any spot where you're using it for Bloodbath alone will give you the benefit of the mitigation, and a 90s CD is pretty quick in the world of cooldowns.

Also, burning a 2min CD because your scholar can't mitigate a Shared Sentence on week 6 is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

I don't have a direct link, but it was mentioned during the Vegas Fanfest Live Letter preview of Stormblood. Look it up, the reddit thread should still be around!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cuv4E0pW8AAr41J.jpg

They didn't really say much about it, just that cross-class skills would stop being cross-class and would now be categorized per role.

Or something.

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Thanks for this. I looked it up and watched Mr. Happy's video. For combat jobs, it makes sense, but I really hope they don't completely do away with the cross class system, instead only shunting the "essential" skills into the role-based tree. Getting rid of it completely would also hurt DoH and DoL classes, which rely on cross-class skills to craft and gather effectively (there are some recipes, for example, where it is basically impossible to have any kind of guarantee at HQ without the use of cross-class skills).

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Bloodbath, Conval and Foresight are terrible or situational cooldowns alone, merging them because they're all crossclassable is just fine. Make it 50% lifesteal, 20% boosted healing, and 10% mitigation for 20s(120s CD as PLD/DRK, 90s as WAR) and it's done.

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On their own, any of the cooldowns (except Shadowskin/Rampart and the tankbuster CDs) is lackluster. But when you pair them properly the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts. No one should be using these cooldowns together because they have better complements in other abilities.

Bloodbath works very well with Berserk (and the other myriad WAR DPS buffs), Fight or Flight, and Blood Weapon.

Convalescence pairs very nicely with Holmgang and Living Dead, or really any situation where you know you're going to need a lot of healing (Hell Wind in WCoM comes to mind).

The only one I can kind of agree with is Foresight, but it becomes extremely valuable when tanking lots and lots of adds (doesn't happen much in raiding, but there are plenty of situations where it's paid for itself in dungeons, hunts, FATEs, and Aquapolis, and others. At current gear levels, it can translate to a good chunk of mitigation, and so is certainly not a "terrible situational skill".

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Stoneskin is a joke skill

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False. Stoneskin is one of the best tools a PLD can use to help mitigate a tankbuster--or other incoming damage (the magic auto-attack in Ramuh comes to mind). Yes, you sacrifice DPS use it, but a 3.5k HP shield is nothing to scoff at.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Awareness is only useful in a handful of gimmick instances

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Again, this is false. Awareness on its own provides a good chunk of mitigation, but has strong interplay with skills that increase block or parry rates thanks to how the combat table works (which may change, but we'll see). When paired with Bulwark, non-DA Dark Dance, or Raw Intuition, Awareness will make them substantially stronger, because it increases the amount of hits that can be blocked or parried. I seriously need to finish my Excel spreadsheet on this before 4.0 comes out, because the numbers are surprisingly impressive.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

IR is only taken because there's nothing else that boosts WAR DPS, and it's paired with Berserk every time anyways.

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Yes, because Warrior is a job that literally heals itself by doing damage. It is the only tank with access to a cross-class DPS buff, because for WAR, that amounts to more mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Removing them wouldn't change the classes much at all.

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Yes. It. Would. Just because you don't see the value in something doesn't mean there isn't any. Just because you don't use certain skills doesn't mean no one does. A lot of people use all of the skills you have mentioned, and to very great effect.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

And no, I mean removing combo starters entirely. They're clunky and unfun, cutting them all will slim down the tank skillsets by a massive degree.

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I'd actually like to see more reason to use them. Power Slash, Butcher's Block, and Rage of Halone don't see too much use outside of combat opening (save maybe for snap enmity generation on a tank swap), and I'd like to see that changed.

Holy wall of text, buddy

1. The only time you would use Bloodbath with offensive CDs is if you're taking ongoing damage, so you're making a moot point.
2. Holmgang can be selfhealed, and LD is a trash skill for mitigation.
3. Foresight is so mediocre alone that it's nearly ALWAYS paired with something else. This is my main point.
4. Healers have much more effective shields. This is about as useful as Protect.
5. Crit rates on bosses are about 10% AT BEST, Awareness, outside of gimmicks like A7S, is not relevant.
6. It's still a vestigial button. Being paired with Berserk every time is evidence of that if you look at ANY good Warrior on fflogs.
7. Merge all 3 into a good cooldown, and people will use it as much as they can. Currently, they're already paired with others, for a mediocre effect. Slim down the tank skillset, people have been asking for this for a while.
8. Maybe give frontal positionals to them? Idk, issue is with the combo starting skills.

3 separate skills serving 3 separate purposes should not be combined.

I'd like to see the tank stances combined. Hit the button once for shield Oath and from then on pressing it alternates shield/sword oaths. If I wanted Awareness combined with anything it would be Bulwark—call it Awareness but also increase block for PLD. I'm afraid to see what happens with Tempered Will, it's a skill I love (which could use some work), but I'm afraid they'll remove it due to lack of players knowing it's there when it matters. I've been playing with the idea of the removal of Fast Blade, making Savage Blade the level 1 move. There's a few ways to balance this but it really comes down to what their overall approach to reducing bloat will be, but this would really help the level 15-26 aggro struggle while removing a skill that only serves to pre-empty other skills.

I like this idea, I'd take it a step farther though. I think skills should be combined and the stance your in determines the skill used. Like RoH and RA one procs in shield and the other in sword. War would benefit too. There is no reason to have 2 buttons for steel cyclone and decimate or inner beast and fell cleave. They both require you to be in a certain stance anyway. Much like the way Equilibrium works now.

Also I'd like to see awareness and bulwark combined and tempered will given a lower cooldown with some kind of def buff added (foresight?)

I think bloodbath should just be added to grit and defiance it's nice on pld but I think an instant cast self cure with no cd would fit a pld better.

But I agree with sweetgrass, situational buttons need to be paired with other abilities to remove button bloat. At the very least so you can use them outside of that situation. Then if your on a fight that has that situation you just save that CD for it.

I'd rather not see those skills combined. There's absolutely no reason to combine those three. Pairing cds together is a good thing, don't remove some of the most interesting parts of playing a tank.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

I'm afraid to see what happens with Tempered Will, it's a skill I love (which could use some work), but I'm afraid they'll remove it due to lack of players knowing it's there when it matters. .

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I've been so afraid of this ever since they announced it!! I know Tempered Will is kind of a waste a lot of times, but I've gotten so much mileage out of it in some fights. I just hope that, instead of removing it entirely, they just make its duration much longer, the CD shorter, and give it some other form of universal utility. I really hope that's the case with the skills they reconsider. One Ilm Punch, Tri-Bind, Tempered Will, Cover, etc come to mind. Their effects are cool on principle, but the use they see is so, so, so little... if only they did more things than what they do, without taking away what they DO atm, that would make me happy.

I'm also fearing for a hardcore Scholar nerf, tbh :(

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

snip.....

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I've been thinking it might get removed and then it's effects put onto other skills like Awareness, which wouldn't be so bad. I like Cover but that's another I worry we'all lose. Our utility might be situational but it's what makes the most simple tank interesting to play

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

I've been thinking it might get removed and then it's effects put onto other skills like Awareness, which wouldn't be so bad. I like Cover but that's another I worry we'all lose. Our utility might be situational but it's what makes the most simple tank interesting to play

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We're kindred Spirits in how we see Paladin, t'would seem. Let's hope they manage to keep the situational utility while also making the class more universally useful orz

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

No, it wouldn't. On WAR, all those instances are within at least 90s of each other, making the skills have laughable usefulness individually. They're mediocre cooldowns when used alone, combining them all would just give you another Rampart/Shadowskin/Raw Int tier skill to use. Any spot where you're using it for Bloodbath alone will give you the benefit of the mitigation, and a 90s CD is pretty quick in the world of cooldowns.

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Vengeance+Bloodbath immediately followed by RI+Foresight isn't 90s apart. Sure, I could change my cooldowns in there to fit your idea, but then the 20% increased healing is completely wasted. Your idea isn't exactly an amazing cooldown because 10% mitigation isn't much to help keep you alive (Foresight mitigates more physical damage than that) so you're going to stack it anyway. That just means you're losing out on being able to use Bloodbath/Convalescence in other situations (and the 3 separate skills already stack well with several other cooldowns). Again, you're trying to combine 3 skills with completely different uses and that just means part of the skill will often go to waste.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Also, burning a 2min CD because your scholar can't mitigate a Shared Sentence on week 6 is a joke.

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The more shields we have, the more DPS the healers can do. It costs me nothing to pop Convalescence at that point (and in plenty of other fights since HW release), so why wouldn't I do it?

You missed my entire point, which is in the basic use of tank cooldowns.

You use Bloodbath, a skill for self-healing over time. Hmm, I wonder what must be happening during that time? Incoming damage? Mitigation would sure help for that. What's that? Tank damage is a healer's concern? Why not get some increased healing too?

Every time you argue for using Bloodbath/Foresight/Conval separately, but STILL paired with other cooldowns, just shows how vestigial they are. If they were combined, it'd be a good button for tanks to press. Currently, they're just mediocre and contribute to button bloat.

I don't consider Bloodbath vestigial on WAR. It's kind of an afterthought on DRK and PLD, though.

On WAR, you can control your burst well enough that Bloodbath is pretty reliable self-healing. Over a Berserked triple FC, you're going to heal for 10k+ HP. Unless the damage intake is high enough to demand a top-up and that healing becomes over-healing, 10k+ healing does help. It's even more healing in AoE situations when paired with Berserked double Decimate into Overpower spam.

And, more relevant to your point, at least when I use Bloodbath, it's with the anticipation of NOT getting healed. It's used with the hope that between fairy heals, Regen / Aspected Benefic, random AoE healing, and Bloodbath, that I can survive while my healer DPSes, handles mechanics, or focuses heals on the party / other tank during a split tanking situation. For example, A5S zoo phase, A7S jails, A8S p2, A9S faust add, A11S E.D.D., A12S time-gate, etc. So, having it rolled together with Conva just seems like a waste to me.

Yea, sometimes you do stack a bunch of junk CDs to help mitigate something. Often you just pair them with your main CDs just to give them a little extra boost. Sometimes you want to stagger them just to smooth out a longer duration of damage. Take A12S add phase for example. You want to be able to stagger your junk CDs just to help smooth out the starting damage and ramp into your hard CDs as the add builds stacks.

I think that some of the weaker CDs could just get rolled into a simplified rotation and that would be enough. Maybe Bloodbath is not needed if you just increase the healing on some tank weapon skills like Path, IB, and Soul Eater and add healing to other attacks. Maybe Foresight isn't needed if you just increase the debuff amount on some abilities. Maybe Awareness isn't needed if you fix the garbage hit table (so that parry and block could push crits off the hit table). They could improve the "passive" mitigation system we have and decrease the skill bloat if that's an issue.

CC skills should matter. Some people might take issue with being forced to level other jobs just to be optimal on the one they want to play but it's better for SE that people play the game more. Also, it's healthier for players to get a broader perspective on how different roles function and would help decrease a lot of the toxicity from some one-sided misconceptions about jobs.

So I think the CC skills we get should be better and come from a larger variety of classes while some the the weaker CC skills right now should just get rolled into the base class.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I like this idea, I'd take it a step farther though. I think skills should be combined and the stance your in determines the skill used. Like RoH and RA one procs in shield and the other in sword.

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I'm sorry but that's an awful idea for PLD, just because i'm in my tank stance doesn't mean I want to be repeatedly slapping the boss with my emnity combo, sometimes I'll have to be in ShO to eat a tank buster, or because a healer is dead or something, but I'll also need to be helping push DPS, and at that point in time being in ShO is nerfing my dps more than it already does by not allowing me to use RA. not to mention that RA or RoH now becomes a 4 step move instead of 3 if i'm not already in the right stance