With the recent news about the current dye system being removed and allowing the "Stat" allocations of certain types of dyed gear to be applied in other ways...this makes me wonder why the developers are using such a convoluted solution for a simple problem.
Instead of sub-secting the gear as a different item based on the stat bonuses they are obviously working very hard on allowing a item to have multiple sets of "Stat" bonuses layered ontop of not only a dye system, but the materia system as well...I find this is the wrong way to go about it.
Why not just make the "Variant" items with different stats a seperate item instead of having 3 stat sets for one item?
As it stands we currently have. *The stats aren't proper for this but it's for example purposes only*
Felt Robe(Undyed)
+32mp
Felt Robe(Red)
+32mp +3int
Felt Robe(Green)
+32mp +3mnd
This data wise is 3 seperate items, not the same item with 3 different stat sets programed into it.
As of 1.20 we will have
Felt Robe
+32mp
(+3int or +3mnd)
Felt Robe (Red)
+32mp
(+3int or +3mnd)
Felt Robe (Green)
+32mp
(+3int or +3mnd)
So instead of 3 items with 1 stat set each we now have 3 items with 3 stat sets each...why not just have them as seperate items (And for that point why not get rid of the nuetral stats of a undyed item)
What should be!
Felt Robe of Power(Starts as nuetral colour and dyed freely between available shades)
+32mp +3int
Felt Robe of Healing(Again starts as a nuetral tone and freely change colours)
+32mp +3mnd
This way we get ride of the useless item set of "Nuetral" stats because there is 0 point to having the nuetral stat item in the end even if you don't need the extra Mnd or Int it does no harm to your character in the end. We also have 2 distinct item names, and no need to program the market wards to recognize multiple stat allocations of a item.
Speaking on the wards or whatever market solution is implemented, when items are sold on the market they should revert to Nuetral colours. This can be multi faceted usefullness. For it to work dyeing would have to be taken out of the hands of crafters though.
-Promote player to use dyes and make them a more consumable item for market stabillity
-Allow Rare colours or difficult to obtain colours exist
-Easy way to "Undye" a peice of gear if you want it nuetral colour
-Save you (Developers) from putzing around with item data for years
I see no reason the same item needs to have a "Second" layer of customization beyond materia the stats the item has should just stay hard-coded in the item data. I can only imagine this saving you a immesne ammount of time in the long run.
New gear system: Far too complex?
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11-16-2011, 01:42 PMJynxNew gear system: Far too complex?
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11-16-2011, 01:52 PMNuru
You just described the system I was hoping for somewhere down the raod of development. I was hoping they wouldn't bother changing things around until they had finished finalizing the system, but at least we can say they are taking a few steps in the right direction.
I think what they tried to do here is that since we dyed our armors to get certain stats, they didnt want to just take the stats away from us. However, with the system we are asking for is if the Felt Robe with the stats can only add a bit of a change in appearance along with the stat changes, since the stats make it a completely different item in the first place.
Example:
Felt Robe will have normal appearance. +Free Color Change
Felt Robe of Power/Healing will have some decorations or added shape to alter appearance. +Free Color Change -
11-16-2011, 02:59 PMFelisWith 1.20 boni stats have nothing to do with colors anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
It's more:Quote:
As of 1.20 we will have
Felt Robe
+32mp
(+3int or +3mnd)
Felt Robe (Red)
+32mp
(+3int or +3mnd)
Felt Robe (Green)
+32mp
(+3int or +3mnd)
So instead of 3 items with 1 stat set each we now have 3 items with 3 stat sets each...why not just have them as seperate items (And for that point why not get rid of the nuetral stats of a undyed item)
Felt Robe (undyed, red or green)
+32mp
Felt Robe (+Int) (undyed, red or green)
+32mp ,+3int
Felt Robe (+Mnd) (undyed, red or green)
+32mp, +3mnd
Gear without bonus stats are most times for all classes while gear with bonus stats are class specific.Quote:
This way we get ride of the useless item set of "Nuetral" stats because there is 0 point to having the nuetral stat item in the end even if you don't need the extra Mnd or Int it does no harm to your character in the end.
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11-16-2011, 03:18 PMindira
color should NOT effect stats HQ should. plain and simple
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11-16-2011, 03:20 PMCorrderio
Agree with OP. It's stupid making piece of gear, than about 3-4 more versions of the same gear with a different attribute on each version.
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11-16-2011, 03:38 PMSeif
That's the way I hoped it would be too but it seems this is also one of those cases where they were too afraid to change the system and ended up just slightly tweaking it.
Overall if we have less gear stats variables they have better chances of balancing the battle system that is still in really early stages.
Also when we buy gear it feels more meaningful because of the stat changes.
It seems like the intention was just to give more vanity customization options but if that's the case why are they still attached to stats? Shouldn't one of the options be to keep the original look of the armor the way it was designed?
This might be off topic but why is dying so damn complicated if it now serves only this customization purpose?
It's hard enough to find a crafter on my server let alone one that can do this process. I feel like all the meaningful gameplay situations have been dumbed down but the completely optional stuff like dyes are still as accessible as Mount Everest on a windy day...
edit: post rant rant: Also why am I black again? I was able to use my custom avatar for a while but now it's gone?
edit edit: ok this is just silly now it changed back to me again without me altering any settings?
edit edit edit: nope still black after hitting the post button...I give up. =__= -
11-16-2011, 06:01 PMTeakwood
I think the reason they decided to go "base gear -> enhanced gear -> dyed gear" as a stopgap is that they didn't want to add several more complex slightly different recipes for different versions of the base gear, when they could have the main recipe for the base gear and simpler adjustment recipes for the enhanced gear.
I didn't see the point of the OP at first; now I understand and agree that the "base -> enhanced" step isn't strictly necessary, but the fact that this is a stopgap to put something in place before they can readjust their item system to work the way they eventually want it to work helps me maintain patience with stuff like this that makes me scratch my head a little. I have a feeling - and admittedly, it's only a feeling, mediated by my faith in the current dev team - that they are forced to make a lot of locally suboptimal decisions by the cruftiness of the 1.0 system that they're working with. I mean, there's a reason they're pinning everything on a re-code of almost every major technical implementation of the system. ^^ -
11-16-2011, 06:05 PMNuru
It surprises me why they did it this way when they said that each item itself takes up memory. So what is it they are trying to say?
All we ask is that we have one Felt Robe, and we can dye it any color we want. We dont need 3 different Felt Robes that we can only dye 2 colors. :/ -
11-16-2011, 06:12 PMBetelgeuzah
I am hoping that in the future same gear with different stats will also have different aesthetics outside of color.
This is certainly possible already as the software they use allows for flexible modding of equipment, but probably unused due to memory issues. So, say, even if you can dye your gear however you want by applying different stats to it you will be able to change the actual model slightly. -
11-16-2011, 06:14 PMNuruThat's worded better than what i had in my first reply. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-16-2011, 06:15 PMBetelgeuzahYour explanation is good, I didn't notice before you pointed it out though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
It should give the system more purpose without being in conflict with the customization-zealots. Equipment with different model = equipment with different stats is easier to cope with than the color only dictating what the stats are and not be a meaningless addition if the equipment differs in no apparent way outside of stats.
Still would be nice to get a confirmation from the devs if this is what they're planning. It's easy to think that this is a brainfart of theirs otherwise. -
11-16-2011, 06:22 PMNuruYou know, with the way i noticed how the models worked, i thought that the way this game was going to work is that you start with the basic lvl 1 equipment and you just throw in upgrades and with each upgrade there would be a level requirement. Of course something like that would have to be implemented with crafting classes in mind, I would hate to have to ask crafters myself all the time i need an upgrade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
I can see how it would work though, and the game's general direction was to make crafters just as important, so this idea could have worked out pretty well. -
11-16-2011, 06:41 PMviion
I dont get the issue here..
You make item, you then add some stats on it of your choosing (out of a specific list of possibilities i assume) then you add any colour you want out of a specific list of possibilities. I doubt 2 is max (considering we have gear now with 3-4+ different colours)
It seems simple and easy to me. And the example it shows seems simple
- Player makes Felt Robe
- Player wacks on some Mind + 6
- Player dyes it red.
Player is happy. -
11-16-2011, 06:59 PMBaxterlets hope they change the name to throw off confusionQuote:
Felt Robe (increases Mind)
Requires: Discipline of Magic
MP: +54
Magic Evasion: +8
Mind: +6 Dyeing
→ Felt Robe (increases Mind) (Red)
Requires: Discipline of Magic
MP: +54
Mind: +6
Magic Evasion: +8
Felt Robe (increases Mind) (Green)
Requires: Discipline of Magic
MP: +54
Mind: +6
Magic Evasion: +8
* The above equipment names are tentative.
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11-16-2011, 07:07 PMFelisForget the color. With 1.20 color is just for style again and not for specific stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-16-2011, 07:10 PMBetelgeuzahThat's what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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11-16-2011, 07:12 PMLienn
Well, IMO materias should be the "effect customization" so colors having effect aren't really needed.
But seems like Yoshida wants colors to have effect...so the best is just tossing feedback regarding colors being related to effects.
IMO woud be much easier we just having a better materia system where 5 materias would be the common, not a strike of luck...having lesser effect per materia but adding stuff like materia combos, affinities, etc...making it in a way all materias have an use...even those "Chocobo down" Materias...
I already suggested him this to them a while ago...weakening materias overall effect but we being allowed to do equip up to 5 materias (even if just over time, with fail risk going down as the spiritbond goes up so ppl would need to use the gear a while before adding a new materia if they want it to be safe) and just removing every single effect from crafted gear, leaving just materias on them. -
11-16-2011, 07:25 PMBahnI think this entire fricken problem would've been avoided in the first place if Yoshida didn't have this train of thought. He went from allowing us to have a simple system where we can dye our equipment whatever we want using a universal dye (good) to this convoluted way of getting the "extra stats" from our gear. There shouldn't have been a benefit to wearing one color over another in the first place, save for vanity purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
I know some min-maxing munchkin players would get angry at this, but I think the easiest way to solve this issue is to just remove the extra stats and go back to what we originally thought the original dyeing system would be, which is to allow us to easily make colored gear as a choice and not have these "extra" stats that make other colored versions of gear impractical to wear versus the color that has the "best" stats. -
11-16-2011, 07:27 PMBetelgeuzahBut colors won't have an effect, so where did you pull this statement from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
Colors =! the actual 3D model. -
11-16-2011, 07:35 PMNuruJust a little something i missed. The underlined part. Seems to me like items wont really be getting the 32 colors previously mentioned, meaning the Color ID system isn't complete yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triary
However, if giving an item new stats = a separate item altogether, then why not add a bit to the appearance? It wouldn't cost much memory and its quite innovative to me. Its like adding shoulder pads to harnesses, you are adding extra materials so they should have at least an extra physical appearance.