Ninja SkS Build with 2100+ dps

Two of my friends main NIN. Each with different build. One is going for Crit-SkS and the other is going with common Crit-Det. The one with SkS always tops Det by 150~200dps. Because of the different build each is using a different rotation. Det is using the known rotation for NIN. While the SkS one had to do many tests to get it right (not many guides are available for SkS NIN). He also broke A12S dummy (Stone, Sky, Sea).

This is His try on dummy:https://youtu.be/XDGd9E9ce1w

894 SS? Wouldn't you run out of tp VERY quickly? I had to lower my ilv, otherwise my gear had my ss too high and i wouldn't last too long. Is that video using the shasta opener?

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

894 SS? Wouldn't you run out of tp VERY quickly? I had to lower my ilv, otherwise my gear had my ss too high and i wouldn't last too long. Is that video using the shasta opener?

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He cleared A9S and A10S, no TP issues. All melees have TP issues on A9S since that fight is AoE havey and there is no TP break. It is normal for BRD or MCH to pop TP but other than that, there is no issue with TP.

You can ask him in the comment section if you have any questions, since I don't play Ninja I can't help ^^

SkS and Det build both have different openers as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

The one with SkS always tops Det by 150~200dps.

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That is a way larger difference than what is logically possible with a difference in secondary stats, there's definitely something else that is causing this difference. To understand, even if SS was weighted the same as crit, 200 DPS would be roughly be equal to 160 more dex. Det is at 0.2 and let's say SS is at 0.3. That's 160/(SS-DET)=1600, so unless SS is valued a lot more than any theorycrafter thought and they are both compared at 1600 each the difference would be that much.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

That is a way larger difference than what is logically possible with a difference in secondary stats...

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MCH Hypercharge + WAR Storm's Eye

Edit: Also landing more attacks than the average NIN before the boss becomes untargetable + more attacks while Hypercharge is up. Calculating this through the entire fight will make a difference in the end. (His OGC is 1.95)

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Originally Posted by Yeol

MCH Hypercharge + WAR Storm's Eye

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So you're boosting the SS nin but not Det nin and then comparing your results? Either way it's still not going to make a huge difference, HC gives roughly 1.3% increased damage and SE something like 32 DPS if both were at 2k. I was also able to reach his parse without food nor pot and 150 less secondary stats and 9 dex less. My simulator also points that comparing the BiS and his BiS he's losing out on 50 DPS. Unless he can come up with a theoretical reason as to why SS is better than Crit and Det there's no way it can be taken seriously, practical results is basically impossible to base off as there's way too many variables to take into account.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

So you're boosting the SS nin but not Det nin ..

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Could you send/post the video and I will forward it to him ^^

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Originally Posted by Krindor

That is a way larger difference than what is logically possible with a difference in secondary stats, there's definitely something else that is causing this difference. To understand, even if SS was weighted the same as crit, 200 DPS would be roughly be equal to 160 more dex. Det is at 0.2 and let's say SS is at 0.3. That's 160/(SS-DET)=1600, so unless SS is valued a lot more than any theorycrafter thought and they are both compared at 1600 each the difference would be that much.

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Most skill speed weights don't take into consideration the actual rotational improvements they can provide, just the raw rate of damage adjustment, as far as I've seen matching math for.

Back in 2.x my Skill Speed was, when right at the crucial rotational plateau, probably my largest dps contributer, and shuffling around secondary stats at the same ilvl and roughly the same accuracy showed this in my parses. The issue was simply the massive TP drain.

That said, this level of skill speed seems excessive. If his attack rate were about 3.3% less, he could still get every Dancing Edge in time, perfect his Shadow Fangs, and get the Aeolian Edge lineup with second Duality.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Could you send/post the video and I will forward it to him ^^

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If you're talking about my parse here: https://www.twitch.tv/krindor/v/95283951

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Quite funny, considering the current stat weights were made by me and I don't give skill speed a weight because of that reason.

Here's a graph showing why I rate SS so low, it's made by a simulator which accounts for most things.
https://i.gyazo.com/be02a7964d40ffa3...495887260c.png

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Most skill speed weights don't take into consideration the actual rotational improvements they can provide, just the raw rate of damage adjustment, as far as I've seen matching math for.

Back in 2.x my Skill Speed was, when right at the crucial rotational plateau, probably my largest dps contributer, and shuffling around secondary stats at the same ilvl and roughly the same accuracy showed this in my parses. The issue was simply the massive TP drain.

That said, this level of skill speed seems excessive. If his attack rate were about 3.3% less, he could still get every Dancing Edge in time, perfect his Shadow Fangs, and get the Aeolian Edge lineup with second Duality.

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Also the very person you probably got those stats from says they're calculated based off normal amounts a person is likely to have, and that the weighting would go up if you went all out on it.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

if anyone is interested about my GCD its 1.95 and to achieve this you need SS 870 as minimum

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30 of your SkS is being wasted.
Since SkS is in tiers of 60, the tooltip will SAY your GCD is lowered, but when you time the difference between 1 SkS and 59 SkS you will see no difference.
But if you time the difference between 1-59 to 60-119 SkS you will see a 1% decrease in the GCD. Nothing in between those numbers effects the actual timing, only effects the tool tip.

EDIT: Im actually wrong, I forgot about the NIN haste, my mistake

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

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If you want to go steady go with det, it's superior to SS and is the definition of steady in every possible way. SS as a stat is irregular, so putting a ton of points into it without planning worthless, it requires planning and understanding to actually utilize it. Even with that it's valued less than determination.

But it is mathematically proven that SS is worse than Det. But since you are set on SS, then carry on.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

well then i got what it take to utilize it then >:3 and proven my point.in terms of playstyle it defers you like it slow' i like it fast i just want to show the ppl that skill speed is a thing in the game and its on pare with DET say what you like but now you saw someone that can master a SS build :)

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It's not hard at all to utilize a SS build. It's just not a viable build, I would love to go fast but not at the loss of damage. Even without accounting for TP, the SS build you proposed is more than 50 DPS less than the BiS. Also SS is not on par, not even close for NIN. That's what the graph on the previous page showed. In small amounts to meet certain close thresholds it's good, but stacking it instead of crit/det is a loss. What you've shown is that your build deals exactly the damage predicted by my sim and confirmed that it's worthless in comparison to crit. Running your proposed build is equal to just not using BfB add all in loss of DPS.

Those adds shouldn't be lasting long enough for doton to be a good idea.

People always argued my high Skill Speed, but I felt like it contributed to my dps. After a while, I did away from Skill Speed, but I honestly see a dip now. They tell my I'm delusional.

Anywho, in A9, the only aoe I use is Doton. I am confident to say, when I spam aoes on the adds, we are at the borderline of killing them. But with Doton and my single-targeting, they drop faster.

There is only so many times people can explain why you are wrong :p lol. It is a fact that SS is worse than Det. If you like SS, then you can use it, but you need to accept that it is not optimal.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

Det : increased Damage potency
SKill speed : increased weapon skill Damage, DoT potency , recast time
So the Det = we'll increase 2 things 1-auto attack 2- instance Skill (OGCD)

And SS= 1-increase weapon skill (GCD) skills 2-DoT Damage 3-increase (GCD) recast time

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Det is a weaker version of str and effects the damage done from everything, so gcds, ogcds and auto attacks. SS does not increase weapon skill damage. It only decreases the global cooldown and increases the damage on DoT ticks, the increase on DoT ticks is close to negiable and contributes at most 1/6th of SS weight. Now what does this leave us? Det increases, 1 skill damage, 2 oGCD damage, 3 DoT damage. What does SS increase, 1 recast, 2 DoT damage. It also requires on average 31 points per recast drop so you need a huge amount for a small drop.

Also you can edit your posts to skip the 1000 word limit.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

2- let\\'s be real there is a thing called "tp song" and it\\'s there for a reason and for BRDs and MCHs ignoring the game mechanics so that they can boost the here dps think carefully. In the end the outcome is negative.
while your striving to boost your dps and ignoring your job as a support your letting main dps jobs lose dps , wich more then you lose your own,so for ppl who are playing main dps they are altering there stats just for the sake of brds and mchs not to sing its there job to sing and saying "I dont want to lower the brd dps " coz losing 2 main dps role > then losing only support role thats always the case in a raiid party composition.
Hope I did my best for this explanation :)

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You do realise that MCH and BRD are barely behind us in DPS. Hell MCH is stronger than NIN in almost every fight. If you make them sing due to stacking SS, any type of gain you would see would be drowned by the loss of party DPS.

Invigorate gives you 400 tp if you are not a drg.

But you are spreading mis-information. SS is NOT a good way to build a NIN, full stop. Can you run it, ofcourse you can, but don't expect people to praise you for it. The way secondaries are done in XIV there is one, mathematically proven, best gear set to use, along with mathematically proven weights to show you what each stat is worth. The simple fact is that if you stack SS, you WILL do worse than someone that stacks Crit/Det.

I can go in to a duty wearing full tanking accs for all that extra HP to ignore a few mechanics; can I still do some damage, yes I can, but will it be good? No.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

People always argued my high Skill Speed, but I felt like it contributed to my dps. After a while, I did away from Skill Speed, but I honestly see a dip now. They tell my I'm delusional.

Anywho, in A9, the only aoe I use is Doton. I am confident to say, when I spam aoes on the adds, we are at the borderline of killing them. But with Doton and my single-targeting, they drop faster.

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Yes, doton will probably outdo single-targeting, but unless they're lasting 20+ seconds, you should be using katon. You should also really already know this.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

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Say hello to damage formulas:
GCD/oGCD/DoT potency: ((Potency/100)*(1+WD*0.0432544)*(DEX*0.1027246)*(1+DET/7290)*BUFFS)-2
AA: ((WD/3*aa_delay/34+1)*(DEX/6.8)*(DET/6795+1)*BUFFS)-1
DoT buff by SS: ((SS-354)/7722+1) – [Note, this fits into “BUFFS” for damage calculation]
More can be found here: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/damag...her-mechanics/

All attacks has a variance of +- 5%. These are tested and confirmed in game.

So we do have theory proving SS to be worthless.

Thank you Krindor :)

and to Aijin, if you don't understand how stuff works, please don't go around saying that you do.

LOL. I really hope you are trolling at this point. Dervy and Krindor are THE sources for this sort of stuff, if you won't listen to them, there is no helping you. Enjoy your SS :p

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

Yes again theorys not facts no realiable source.atleast give me 5 real certified source,source that shares the same consept of this theory,and theories Never proves anything so it wont prove det is good and SS is useless,Plus you didnt answer any of my questions atleast 1.
PS I NEVER said DET is bad and SS is good just so everyone know and never said go really high on SS
I said minimum 870 SS to get 1.95 GCD beyond 1.95 is dangerous in a lot of ways

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Unless you can't understand math I answered all 3 of your questions. Damage/Potency can be derived from the formula and the reason every attack isn't the same is because there's a variance that is +- 5% of what the formula calculates. You can go ahead and try and get these numbers yourself, I do believe I've proven my point to everyone else so no more reason to continue with this.

What on earth would lead you to believe that a stat called "Skill speed" is boosting the base damage/potency of your DoTs and Skills?

Refusing to accept empirical evidence in preference of your anecdotal evidence is doing nothing to further your argument.

But kudos for asking questions and trying out different possibilities, nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Khubla_Kha

What on earth would lead you to believe that a stat called "Skill speed" is boosting the base damage/potency of your DoTs and Skills?

Refusing to accept empirical evidence in preference of your anecdotal evidence is doing nothing to further your argument.

But kudos for asking questions and trying out different possibilities, nothing wrong with that.

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Um....actually Skill Speed and Spell Speed were updated to effect the damage output of DoTs. It's in the tooltip. Rather than making them tick more often however, Skill Speed increase the potency. It's weird and doesn't really make sense, but it does work that way.

EDIT: My fault for not thoroughly reading every post in the thread before responding....I didn't realize that he was suggesting that Skill Speed directly buffs weapon skill damage. I interpreted the quoted response as stating that DoTs are not buffed by SS.

I think we all know that, but he also mentioned that skillspeed increases the damage of all weaponskills on the gcd, while saying det increases the damage of all ogcds only.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

finally : DET in 2.x is really Different than 3.x
DET in 2.0 usually carries everything (auto attack-weapon skill-dot-overall potency damage-OGCD damage)
DET in 3.0 only (auto attack and OGCD)

SS in 2.0 only (shorten recast time)
SS in 3.0 now have (increase GCD-DoT-shorten Recast time

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I've never heard nor seen anything that would point to that being true, I'm very curious to know where that idea came from.

It'll be a cold day in hell when I turn on tp regen for one single NIN, it only happens in a9s and that's because I need the tp most of all. Krindor is right that MCH are currently outdpsing NIN in Creator. I have a little bird that sits on my shoulder who is very good at adding up the damage numbers hitting the boss, and it tells me MCH are outdpsing NIN both at the 75th and 90th percentiles.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I think we all know that, but he also mentioned that skillspeed increases the damage of all weaponskills on the gcd, while saying det increases the damage of all ogcds only. See the last post on the previous page.

I've never heard nor seen anything that would point to that being true, I'm very curious to know where that idea came from.

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Just read the rest of the thread and it becomes clear where it comes from, Aijin-Sama's head. And only from there.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

Yes again theorys not facts no realiable source.atleast
I said minimum 870 SS to get 1.95 GCD beyond 1.95 is dangerous in a lot of ways

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Dude, if you have any grounding in science, I'm sure you understand the concept of weight of evidence? What you have is 5 testimonials/expert opinions vs thousands of data points of empirical evidence which lead to that Dervy damage formula. I'm purposely ignoring the fact that your level of evidence (opnion/testimonial/expertise) ranks significantly lower than Dervy's (which is an observational controlled trial).
It is OK to be ignorant, you can still learn and get better. It is NOT ok to be ignorant + belligerent because all you are doing is deluding yourself and misleading others.

I'll address your questions.
1. Potency to damage is a work in progress. The most accurate damage formula (both JP and EN independent work) can be found here
https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/...mage-formulas/
2. It has been conclusively proven by Dervy and also the author of the Healing formula that there is a 5% built in game variance in conversion from Potency to Effect (e.g. Damage and Healing). This means that for any action executed, the values in Damage/Healing can be 5% higher or lower within the same environment of identical stats.
3. see 2.

TLDR
Educate yourself on these resources:
https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ulas_and_more/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ted_and_works/

Then we can begin a proper reasoned discussion in earnest.

P.S. btw, were you aware SKS is divided in tiers and the tooltip is inaccurate? If you don't reach the next tier (especially with bad ping), as far as the server is concerned, your extra SKS is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

As a last request from all of you polite ppl for those Favoring Det post a vid of your dps betting mine In a12s dummy challenge if if one of you bested me by 50+ dps with the same crit rate that I did or 1% more with ilvl 253 and a weapon of ilvl255. if you all think I am wrong then prove it with your dps vid on this matter , I am using mega pot so all of you know .i respect krindor
Coz he posted his vid but I was above him by 80dps not saying this to discriminate DET so prove me wrong then

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Lol because can't beat science? have to rely on a cherry picked example to beat your cherry picked sample, which is RnG, imprecise and ultimately useless as a sample size to prove ur point?

Btw I'll also point out ur hitting dummy test is useless from a measurement standpoint. Why? because depending on the termination time of measurement, your results can vary and can introduce bias towards either build. This is before factoring in Crit, thus your measurement is imprecise by design.
If you really want to prove your point, record a couple of hundred attempts at the hitting dummy, then average the DPS number. Then someone else with Det will do the same, then we can talk about which is superior.

Otherwise, you are just comparing two outliers, which is worthless in science.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Um....actually Skill Speed and Spell Speed were updated to effect the damage output of DoTs. It's in the tooltip. Rather than making them tick more often however, Skill Speed increase the potency. It's weird and doesn't really make sense, but it does work that way.

EDIT: My fault for not thoroughly reading every post in the thread before responding....I didn't realize that he was suggesting that Skill Speed directly buffs weapon skill damage. I interpreted the quoted response as stating that DoTs are not buffed by SS.

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I wasn't clear in my phrasing. Your clarification was helpful. Sorry for not being clear in my meaning. And I wasn't intending my tone to be antagonistic at all just a question on where that misunderstanding was coming from.

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Originally Posted by Aijin-Sama

Then the discussion is done thank you all for joining in and thx for all of your polite post hope ppl who visit this topic will benefit from this discussion thank you all

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So you say if no one posts a video where he/she beats you in dps, you are right and SkS is by far better than DET? If you not even want to try it yourself to proof people wrong, why should they try to proof that math is right and you are wrong?

I'm not gonna tell you that SkS sucks, if you are fine with it its your choice. But like i said, as long as you didn't try DET out you can't tell people they are wrong, because that is what you did more or less.

believe you can macro your Weapon skill if u have 2secc recast time any more like 2.01 the macro will not run . for mudra we cant macro as SE doesn't allow us to have a x.x delay in the macro . it has to be either 1 sec or 2 sec. around 720 sks u can get the 2sec ..it kinda fun .. you just have to run the macro and weave in your mudra and other Ogcd...

higher Det = more the dmg per hit
higher sks = more hit time

exp like I have a recast time of 2.06 . in 1 min can maybe hit 29.1 of ws + 29.1 auto in ... with 2sec 30 weopen skills +30 auto attack . tat if u hit ur buttons like a GOD and with 0 DELAY.

realistically don't think is possible for anyone to make use off high Sks .
it will give u less room to do ur mudra (a fix amount of time) .

dont think tat add hit will make a big different as usually DET dmg should off set the add hit. DET should win unless Sks has very big impact on ur 2 dots

Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I feel perhaps FFXIV should do something like SWTOR did with the whole "haste" attribute on combat, make it literally speed up everything on a char except for runspeed. With it did was basically reduce GCD, CD's and regeneration of resources by the same amount. So if your char hit 20% faster, your cd's would be 20% shorter, your TP/MP would regenerate 20% faster (or more if we have to rely on server ticks), DoT's ticked 20% faster (or more again), etc. The advantage of this was that your rotation wouldn't be messed up if you'd hit faster in the end. In FFXIV we see having faster speed can be disadvantagious because it makes your TP drain faster, or possibly your rotation not alligning anymore with your CD's.

Oh well, here's to hoping perhaps with the Stormblood Combat Revamp? ^^

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Originally Posted by Ivanhere

believe you can macro your Weapon skill if u have 2secc recast time

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So...you want high sks so you can macro your gcd skills? Good god. And what you suggest wouldn't work. Even with 0 latency the animation delays would prevent you from getting even a raiton off the way you're describing. And then because you're running several gcds on a macro (which is terrible btw) your 2nd one wouldn't go off, your 3rd would, but would be out of combo, huge dps loss. And even without ninjutsu, what if you had to move away from the boss the moment your 2nd skill was going to go? Absolutely terrible idea.

I think your DPS would be more validated if you post a vid of yourself in actual fights. Nobody cares what you do on a dummy.