I'm re-reading the Siliconera article, and there's this one tidbit that worries me.

"On the subject of getting new content on odd-numbered patches and battle content such as the Alexander raids on the even-numbered patches, Yoshida said that content such as item level upgrades and the timing of high-difficulty raids won’t change its flow, but they will continue adding more content, such as casual content on the even-numbered patches, so there will always be something for everyone."

Source: http://www.siliconera.com/2016/06/24...-fan-festival/


Did Yoshi-P straight up say 4.0's formula will be the exact same 2.0 AND 3.0? Or am I missing something here in context? Or is there not enough information to determine that?

That's pretty much what i took from it, the formula seems like it'll be the same but they might increase the types of content that we get in the rotation.

Not the exact same as 2.0, more like 3.0 with its Diadems and its Verminions.

tomes forever, forever tomes. always the vertical progression formula apparently..

This works for me! :D

I wouldn't mind these kind of patches if we had more content into it to begin with: 2 dungeons every patch is nice (although we had 3) but beside the primal addition and the alex raids (which both I don't do), there isn't really all that much to look for: I'm enjoying the aquapolis but i wish i had more to do than just redoing the same 2 experts and 3 daily quests for moogles. I'm honestly getting bored...

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

I wouldn't mind these kind of patches if we had more content into it to begin with: 2 dungeons every patch is nice (although we had 3) but beside the primal addition and the alex raids (which both I don't do), there isn't really all that much to look for: I'm enjoying the aquapolis but i wish i had more to do than just redoing the same 2 experts and 3 daily quests for moogles. I'm honestly getting bored...

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maybe because you're only doing expert DR and moogle quests lol.

I don't do savage myself but i don't find myself getting that bored.

I'm ok with this since I usually do all kinds of content, not only savage :P

Vertical progression is ok too, since that kind of progression is new player-friendly and can get around your ilvl in days instead of years.

They just need to add different kinds of content, such as Deep Dungeons!

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Not the exact same as 2.0, more like 3.0 with its Diadems and its Verminions.

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both awesome and raging success content :rolleyes: , airships .....oh dont forget relic reborn ;) , atma 3.0 ver , and HQ items , that was received with open arms....

if SE reedem itself with deep dungeon im more than happy but....too soon to say

I think all it's really saying it the current formula won't change. That being x.Even number: Progression patch. x.Odd number: Catch up patch. However, casual-oriented content will still be introduced even with progression patches.

Was anything ever said that hinted at CHANGING the formula?
I'm not surprised (or disappointed, in my opinion it's fine).

Good. I don't want a massive change, or this will look like a different game. it is logical the scheme doesn't change. For patch 7.0 (If reach it) we will have tiem level 800 and 99999 HP :3

The core formula itself needn't be changed, just the lack of content, be it more dungeons, higher difficulty or new features like Deep Dungeon. Frankly, I almost see the latter as a trial for what could be dynamic dungeons in general. That would certainly break up the monotony a little.

Not a lack of content in general, i feel its too much content.... for casual playstyle. There is no midcore content, trials alone are not enough.... and savage is just lazy(to develop) hardcore content tbh.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Not the exact same as 2.0, more like 3.0 with its Diadems and its Verminions.

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So 2.0. Its basically the same as 3.0. With failed stuff added in.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Was anything ever said that hinted at CHANGING the formula?
I'm not surprised (or disappointed, in my opinion it's fine).

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You enjoy monotony?

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Originally Posted by Elky

So 2.0. Its basically the same as 3.0. With failed stuff added in.

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Well, people asked them to finally take risks. So they did take risks. And risks come with the ability to fail.

At least it was just some side content that failed, not a fundamental overhaul of game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Kaldor

Not a lack of content in general, i feel its too much content.... for casual playstyle. There is no midcore content, trials alone are not enough.... and savage is just lazy(to develop) hardcore content tbh.

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Aye. This should be emphasised. While I appreciate SE's need to cater to the casual demographic, there needs be some sort of balance. Weeping City has been a nice start, but I would like to see extreme dungeons with a difficulty level roughly around extreme primal levels. Even if it were only the damage scaled up-- with mechanics more or less the same. We'd at least be paving out a midcore.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Not the exact same as 2.0, more like 3.0 with its Diadems and its Verminions.

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So the exact same as 2.0. We had our gold saucer brought in then.

people were hoping for some honest shakeup of the content additions since heavensward was announced. if tomestone running is all that we can expect, then I don't think we can even call it an expansion...or even new content.

Think about it, its the same "three groups of mobs and a boss" we'll run 90 times for the latest material armor of verb using the tomestone of something or other from Rowena....with 2 primals and their ex trials, 4 "raids" that are just out of reach, and msq...oh but its an "expansion" so maybe we might have some sitting around for fate running to do for leveling! oooh!

I believe the team is able to make new content. But that's really just a belief, it seems like now they are set in their ways on systems that are more designed for keeping people bored and subscribed than interested and invested. What is even the point of making suggestions if there is no chance they can deliver?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, people asked them to finally take risks. So they did take risks. And risks come with the ability to fail.

At least it was just some side content that failed, not a fundamental overhaul of game mechanics.

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So what you're saying is they actually didn't take any risks....players noticed this and thus failed. It's content sure...it just isn't that interesting to begin with.

I like where SE is going, I am too bored atm, but by the time 4.0 comes out we will have gold saucer (hopefully more gold saucer event and additional games), deep dungeon, aquapolis, diadem (hopefully rework for the better) , airship, pvp, ex primals, more dungeons, 24 man raid, savage, and whatever they add-on to from now to 4.0.

Oh, also fishing and crafting, housing, beast tribes

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

So what you're saying is they actually didn't take any risks....players noticed this and thus failed. It's content sure...it just isn't that interesting to begin with.

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Wait...so taking risks = "fundamental overhaul of game mechanics"? I think there is a big difference between "taking a risk" and "rebuilding the core of the game from the ground up". Diadem, for example, was a risk. Deep Dungeons, which feature randomized dungeons and differing leveling structures, is a risk. Lords of Vermillion, a miniature real time strategy game, is a risk. They differ drastically from the ordinary flow of things in various ways, even if they have their failings (Diadem failed to reward exploration leading to Dino island, Lords of Vermillion is hampered by the Golden Saucer queue times and console controls etc). I think it's disingenuous to say "they don't take risks" just because they haven't, for example, turned the entire game into a different genre. You can "take risks" with new content without rebuilding your game from the ground up, which many people here seem to think is easily achievable for some reason.

One thing to keep in mind is that Fundamental changes (such as switching from vertical to horizontal progression) are an absolutely major, extremely expensive and insanely risky endeavor. It's not like in a 3-month patch the Devs can be like "Let's re-do our entire itemization structure! And change every class and job!". It's an enormous amount of work, and something that needs to be approached very carefully. It's the kind of thing only an expansion can realistically add to a game, not a 3-month patch. Honestly, compared to other games, the 3-month patches are already pretty generous with content, though I agree that the system isn't perfect and can use a variety of improvements.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

Wait...so taking risks = "fundamental overhaul of game mechanics"? I think there is a big difference between "taking a risk" and "rebuilding the core of the game from the ground up". Diadem, for example, was a risk. Deep Dungeons, which feature randomized dungeons and differing leveling structures, is a risk. Lords of Vermillion, a miniature real time strategy game, is a risk. They differ drastically from the ordinary flow of things in various ways, even if they have their failings (Diadem failed to reward exploration leading to Dino island, Lords of Vermillion is hampered by the Golden Saucer queue times and console controls etc). I think it's disingenuous to say "they don't take risks" just because they haven't, for example, turned the entire game into a different genre.

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If their "Risks" are something like Diadem, then I'm afraid for the future content, because diadem is incredibly underutilized and feels really short sighted for content. It's supposed to be one of the flagship content for the expansion (alongside with FC airships and FC crafting), but we haven't seen true update for it since it came out in 3.1. Instead all it is more fighting of mobs that have very little interactions or variety (which honestly is the same for aquapolis, the difference is that it gives rare items, but even that lost its novelty for me after the first few days). Likewise with LoV with how the queuing even works, and even The Feast with how ambitious they are in regards to a ranked ladder (despite knowing that the issues of both solo match making and partied win trading had already existed during pre-season and even before that in regards to the latter)

Likewise with my expectation of deep dungeons; even if they try to give it a rogue like feel to it, I have very little hope to believe that we aren't otherwise just fighting imps that spam blizzard, succubi that have a radial AoE that needs to be stunned, ground targeted fireballs, and dual wielding gargoyle that'll do radial damage to our melees with the occasionally linear beams. If that's really the case, them I'm just going to get bored of it after getting the rewards, and bored by the tedium of all they do is up the hp and damage as we move down.

The release of the expansion itself did very little to change anything up, can you honestly say something like FC crafting, MCH/BRD being so similar to each other, or the handling of red scrips would allow for something big to be built on top of it? We can't even physically interact with our airships despite it being one of the iconic additions to the expansion. It really doesn't make for much of a framework for future additions...like the actual use of the airships. You have people say "well they are trying something new"...but honestly with the result, I feel like exactly just that; they're trying something new...for the sake of trying something new. More often than not, this is something that just gets put on the backburner and left behind, completely forgotten about; this is going on with diadem right now, we haven;t seen an update for it in 2 patch cycles, as well as LoV itself, and I doubt aquapolis is going to get any further additions aside from another tier or added loot. That should never b the case, otherwise we're just gonna end up with a game that has so many scattered, fragmented fluff you even wonder why it's there (see Pvp in general with each new release)

And yet all the new additions involving the combat classes did not have players approach the content in a unique and interesting way. Diadem turned out to be an hour long mob fatefest, Aquapolis can be enjoyable but is just a treasure map extender, Deep Dungeons will amount to a dungeon simulator though I will reserve judgment as it hasn't been released and no one has gone through it yet.

I care not for minigames but if queue times are an issue that may accentuate that players care little for it.

Perhaps I am too harsh and perhaps they did take risks...but for me and for others they didn't risk enough...did not keep their promise on what was conceptualized on paper and in effect the "risk wasn't worth the reward".

Horizontal progression is as you said a huge "risk" and it is one a portion of the community that we would like to see happen. And you say it would require an expansion to implement such changes but what exactly changed from 2.0 and Heavensward?

Not much.

So what I'm getting out of this.. People want harder content so they can just throw away all that hard work come the next patch? To me that's a slap in the face.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

If their "Risks" are something like Diadem, then I'm afraid for the future content, because diadem is incredibly underutilized and feels really short sighted for content.

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The point of Diadem was freedom, they were testing the waters with content that allowed players to set their own rules about what to do or where to go, turns out themepark MMO players didn't like the lack of an arrow pointing you what to do, and letting people decide whether they want to battle or gather after getting into the instance was a really short-sighted idea, because the battle guys now couldn't get proper credit without the people who couldn't care less about battle and are only there for gathering. It was a risk, and it didn't end well on the battle side, though I do love it for gathering and the fact that stealth doesn't work. Another honorable mention is the lack of rewards from actual exploration and just encouraging endless grind instead.

Now the next diadem update will add a new map without this freedom, they're adding that list of objectives you must do to advance, because that's what the themepark MMO players seem to like, again we don't know if players will like this, so that's another risk being taken, as developing that content costs money and time, time they don't have.

As for the OP, they never even hinted they would change the formula, you can be sure the tome grind and gear with a 6 months expiration date will stay here until the game closes. Transitioning from fast vertical progression into a slow one is an overhaul and a massive risk a game that failed once shouldn't take, specially when other games with slower vertical progression aren't doing that well, slow vertical progression like XI is considered a thing of the past.

Add some type of modifier(s) you can equip to your job that let's you add changes to your skills, add unique broken abilities a la FF11, add SOMETHING please for the love of god I am growing increasingly tired of the gear being the SAME EXACT THING, stacking Crit & Det is about as unique as gets. Every job plays EXACTLY the same so skilled players will have the exact same damage & rotation as each other, it's ridiculous. The ONLY thing that makes a job feel unique from another player's is the ability to glamour your gear so it visually looks different, in reality you play exactly the same as everybody else. Sure it keeps things balanced(sorta) but it always is very restricted & monotonous.

You are exactly alike to anyone who properly plays their job, doing the same 2 dungeons for the same lore for the same armor so you can do the same 2 dungeons slightly faster until the next patch. I try not to think about this but it is the truth & it sounds pretty boring when you hear it.

You want to deal the highest damage? There is ONE specific rotation you HAVE to follow move for move for every single class or you're automatically weaker than pro players no matter how hard you try. There is no identity, even every race looks almost identical to each other bc 90% of the time players choose the one cute face so chances are you look exactly like 50,000 other players & if you have the same job & play perfectly you do the exact same rotation, therefore the ONLY bit of true uniqueness is the 100s of outfits to choose from.


It sucks :/ I really love this game but honestly I am holding out for 4.0 adding something new but if it really is just 3.0 again(maybe only one Ex dungeon this time)....Idk. I give up.

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Originally Posted by Elky

You enjoy monotony?

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Sheesh. Take a break already. You appear to find little joy in this game anymore -- move on!

"Klytus, I'm bored. What play thing can you offer me today?"

You'll probably be disappointed if you think 4.0 will drastically change the game. Seeing as they seem to be ok with how 3.x did it will probably be more of the same with a new coat of paint.

Adding materia slots to non-crafted gear was a big change that's positive. they still need to do more with itemization that's not straight up horizontal progression. this is still one of the biggest obstacles to meaningful midcore content. you can't have that if you're not going to be able to give meaningful rewards.

Adding Scrips was a positive change too imo. it's good to have DoL/DoH objectives.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

The point of Diadem was freedom, they were testing the waters with content that allowed players to set their own rules about what to do or where to go, turns out themepark MMO players didn't like the lack of an arrow pointing you what to do, and letting people decide whether they want to battle or gather after getting into the instance was a really short-sighted idea, because the battle guys now couldn't get proper credit without the people who couldn't care less about battle and are only there for gathering. It was a risk, and it didn't end well on the battle side, though I do love it for gathering and the fact that stealth doesn't work. Another honorable mention is the lack of rewards from actual exploration and just encouraging endless grind instead.

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It's not even the lack of arrows pointing where to go, it's more on the lines of "there was no reason to do so". If you were going into Diadem for gear, no questions asked the best way to do it was organized genocide of island inhabitants. No exploration as it's labeled. Even exploration and teamwork is discouraged for gathering because there's no utilization for things like the no-fly caves, and the mobs are never really next to the nodes to pose a danger. Look at the trailers and none of that is present in actual practice. Theres no campfire resting for buff or even luxury (because of time limits), no one is gong to defend/escort gatherers because there's no need to.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Now the next diadem update will add a new map without this freedom, they're adding that list of objectives you must do to advance, because that's what the themepark MMO players seem to like, again we don't know if players will like this, so that's another risk being taken, as developing that content costs money and time, time they don't have.

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If time isn't something they have, then honestly it feels like they're way out of their league when it comes to designing mmo content. The moment you start cutting shortcuts on content design and expansions, that's where it really starts to fall apart. I recall on record they said Diadem was rushed in favor of finishing LoV. Honestly, there needs to be a balance of risk taking and being cautionary. I'm fine with their ambition to what htey want the content to be, but more often than not they're pulling the horse without the wagon attached...or loaded...or the horse tamed. So much of the downfalls were blatantly obvious to the players (such as the match making for Feast which was present during pre-season, I cannot stress this enough) I quesiton what sort of feedback/testing the developers actually look at or do when it comes to quality checks.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

As for the OP, they never even hinted they would change the formula, you can be sure the tome grind and gear with a 6 months expiration date will stay here until the game closes. Transitioning from fast vertical progression into a slow one is an overhaul and a massive risk a game that failed once shouldn't take, specially when other games with slower vertical progression aren't doing that well, slow vertical progression like XI is considered a thing of the past.

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Honestly, if they have the actual census on the reception, player retention, and player gains of heavesnward, if there is more of a downward slope than an upward slope, then something needs to be done rather than keeping the same over and over. As I mentioned previously, it feels like they're adding new content for the sake of adding it. It doesn't feel like there's future plans for it down the road that isn't arbitrary (like hunts where they just make it give the latest tomestone rewards, and changing the seal purchases consequentially) and feels more of a draw-and-discard. That ultimately feels like a massive waste of development time if they don't bother to expand on it, and likewise with the expansion that gave very little framework to expand upon.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Adding Scrips was a positive change too imo. it's good to have DoL/DoH objectives.

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I would have been fine with scripts if gathering/crafting wasn't butchered in general. Gathering scrips were used to get crafting gear, crafting script is needed for both gathering and crafting. Craters only made things for crafters (not combat or gatherers), and favors were so absurd, it makes you wonder who in the right mind actually thought it was fun. Recipes like the nuggets were absurd in heavensward and only encouraged more monotonous grinding in lower leveled areas, and just in general what crafters could make for others. Even the glamour endgame for it was rubbish (speaking from a MCH/BRD perspective), and it just totally killed the mood for crafting/gathering for me.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

Did Yoshi-P straight up say 4.0's formula will be the exact same 2.0 AND 3.0? Or am I missing something here in context? Or is there not enough information to determine that?

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It seemed to me he was talking more about the cadence of content releases, not the actual content, the formula of the content is not the cadence of it's release.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It seemed to me he was talking more about the cadence of content releases, not the actual content, the formula of the content is not the cadence of it's release.

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Can you explian? I kinda lost on the term "cadence" outside of contexts involving ponies or vocals

I like the game as it is to be honest. It's not perfect, but no game ever is. There's a lot to do, almost too much if I'm honest. I log on and go, "Let's see... EX Roulette for Lore, 60 Roulette for stuff, Leveling Roulette for my class on it's way to 60, Trial Roulette for them for EXP, or for lore if I want a tiny boost... Mini Cactpot, Hunt Seals, Beast Tribe Dailies... maybe after all that is done I'll have time for a Midas/WC/VA run, or for the Crystal Tower weekly."

It gets repetitive, but there are enough changes every day to keep it interesting.

Cadence would rate content comes out, not what kind of content it is.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Can you explian? I kinda lost on the term "cadence" outside of contexts involving ponies or vocals

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The pace of release, the schedule of release, the speed with which content is delivered to users.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Cadence would rate content comes out, not what kind of content it is.

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Complaints I see are people complaining that there are dungeons, 8 man raids, 24-man raids, ilevel bumps and so forth and that it's 'exactly' the same as before, and boring.

So how do you add content to an MMORPG set in the setting we have without adding dungeons and 8/24 player raid/dungeons? All Yoshi-P said was that the pacing of content delivery would be largely the same. He didn't say what the exact nature of the content would be.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Can you explian? I kinda lost on the term "cadence" outside of contexts involving ponies or vocals

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the 3 month cycle with every 6 month being an iLv jump and every 3 in between allowing for catch up. this pattern doesn't completely dictate how you catch up or how the iLv jumps.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The pace of release, the schedule of release, the speed with which content is delivered to users.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

the 3 month cycle with every 6 month being an iLv jump and every 3 in between allowing for catch up. this pattern doesn't completely dictate how you catch up or how the iLv jumps.

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Ah. Makes sense. Thanks

Well if nothing is going to change, I likely wont stick around for much longer.
I love the story, but the constant repetition and grind has burned me out.