So far I feel there isn't enough play testing of the content SE is releasing which I think becomes a valid point as the game is going pay to play.
With 1.18 archers were the favored dps while pugs and lancers weren't really feasible when attacking the two bosses in the darkhold dungeon. This tore Linkshells apart as parties were turning down people who only ranked those classes; whats worse SE didnt do anything about it for 2 months.
With 1.19 I'm surprised SE lacked the foresight to see the appalling block-rate on Gladiator and the dps of the archer in the Ifrit instance. With the animation locks and dubious hit boxes of Ifrits weaponskills players have to rely on cherry picking the best skills from all the classes (Second wind 2, cure III, Sentinel) to work around the fight. While it is obviously possible to do the fight without these skills it definitely makes it easier. At the end of the day people shouldn't have to rank up around 5 classes for the ifrit fight-its not justified.
I face palmed when I read that only one person was working on the 2 job dungeons for 1.21 (zam interview question 3-http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=28045).
This is the content that is supposed to push party play and the new job mechanics to the limit. Just like how darkhold to a degree was content to demonstrate the new auto attack/battle revisions. I wonder if darkhold was tested by one guy multiboxing and auto following on the tank.
I wouldnt be surprised if about 10 ppl were working on the current client while the rest of the dev team is working on version 2.0, if I were yoshi I would probably do the same thing although now we will be paying for this and the dev team doesnt seem to battle adjustments until the next major patch.
Just one person working on the job dungeons..><. Ifrit and darkhold were tested with 8 ppl playing obviously and they still couldnt pick up on the balance issues which arose in each patch during playtesting really bothers me... feel free to share your comments/critics.
Improve quality control for pay to play
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11-02-2011, 04:39 PMGold_LionImprove quality control for pay to play
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11-02-2011, 04:53 PMBetelgeuzah
Reading comprehension goes a long way.
One person is working exclusively on the new raids. He isn't allowed to touch anything 2.0. The rest of the raid team work on both builds.
It's funny because every algorithm got significantly altered and the only real issues so far is the block rate and the archer dps (intended to be complemented with class action changes and job system). With a massive change like that, the number of issues that could have arisen but didn't because they were playtested would be massive. Not that you could even comprehend something like that though, it's all about what's in front of you right now.
All you see is what they didn't fix, not what they ended up fixing. Expecting perfection is insane, and some stuff is best left to see what the playerbase does with it before altering them instead of trying to assume what they might do.
Both 1.18 and 1.19 were pulled off exceptionally by all standards. -
11-02-2011, 04:57 PMSeirra_LanzceHmm yea, there were plenty of fix'ed then that was not fix'ed. ya know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-02-2011, 04:58 PMGold_Lion
Well I would value you opinion more if you actually tried the high lvl content but judging by your levels you havent :?
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11-02-2011, 04:58 PMKafeenQuote:
Originally Posted by Gold_Lion
One person only working on the new instances, not only one person working on them. Other team members will be working on other things too.Quote:
We have one person right now who is only working on that, and he isn't allowed to do anything on 2.0 because we want him to concentrate on that.
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11-02-2011, 04:59 PMSeirra_Lanzcethere's plenty coming in 1.20, 1.21, 1.22, and 1.23 for high level, mid level and low level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold_Lion
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11-02-2011, 05:01 PMBetelgeuzah
What does it matter? Block rate sucks, ARC is gimp. That's the general consensus and I didn't disagree with any of it.
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11-02-2011, 05:10 PMGold_LionYes I know more ppl playtest it, im just raising the issue of having one designer on the raids is a good thing? No matter how good you need a 3rd person input every now and then.Quote:
Ifrit and darkhold were tested with 8 ppl playing obviously
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11-02-2011, 05:13 PMSeirra_LanzceQuote:
Originally Posted by Gold_Lion
In the end Yoshi is the 3rd person no? as a producer/director, he can't just receive it and say yes go ahead. duh. Yes they are might be hiccups here and there, but now in Darkhold runs, any classes can go now. with a proper set up of course. -
11-02-2011, 05:43 PMLebannen
yes to this.
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11-02-2011, 11:39 PMToraFomalhaut
I think Gold has a point in that if they are asking us to start paying for the game there needs to be some more quality control focus on the patch releases.
There's been a number of changes made in a patch that had to either be reverted or changed again completely in a later patch (for instance the changes to TP degredation between encounters) because they just didn't work or didn't work as intended. Now while I don't mind this while the game is free, because as frustrating as it can be, after my initial purchase of the CE I haven't paid to play yet. So I don't have a problem with SE using the live servers for beta testing. But if I'm paying a monthly subscription fee I'd expect a higher quality of product, not something that requires tweaking just months after it's release to be pushed to the servers. This can only be taking away from time that could be used in the development and more indepth quality control of the next patch.
A clear example of this lack of quality control is the recent release of the Ifrit battle. So much so they are having players submit tracer reports because they were unable to / didn't think to / couldn't be bothered to test this themselves. If the game was never intended for launch outside of Japan I can understand why this may not have come up at the play testing for the content. But it's an international game, latency on combat mechanics and how it effects players from other countries should be basic, first line testing. -
11-02-2011, 11:50 PMPhysicpeople complained about guard sooo they get what they wanted, anyone could have told you if you guard without taking any action, or stamina loss, you will probably lose a lot of control. I definitely think its a problem, but the real problem is even thinking that gladiator should not in some way be manually controlling its blocking ability *whether via stance, or skill, or basic skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold_Lion
as far as archer, i say meh to all that, archer is still prefered in darkhold, the mechanics of the ifrit fight specifically, make it so that archers damage reduction for being at range isnt the end all. But this is just one fight. Ifrit has a specific overall bias in terms of what type of fight he represents, which is a burn down avoid his big attacks style, without giving a ranged attacker a very clear and obvious advantage at it.
Ifrit is one fight, archer isnt going to be the DPS king anymore, and it really shouldnt be, its advantage is in being at range and avoiding dmg. Ifrit lowers this advantage by making every one move a bit more often, and the fact that burning him down is a good strat.
add to that, archer is gearing up to play a support/dps role. i dont think they will be ignored at all in the future. -
11-02-2011, 11:54 PMnasomiI stopped reading after this. Same shit, in a dozen topics. I can't wait until you non-players can no longer access the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold_Lion
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11-03-2011, 01:09 AMDNO
What if all those changes was what was intended? what if they WANTED to make ARC weaker and lower the block rate? Just because you do not like it does not mean its broken.
I of course am not saying it is correct but what im saying is just because you hate it does not mean its broken. This is something players need to understand. -
11-03-2011, 02:06 AMAva
I would have to agree with the underlying point of the OP in that the game needs better quality control, but I do not agree with his argument.
There are a lot of things that slip through the cracks that are either a product of:
A) not enough playtesting, or
B) rushed release
Of course, I would never complain about this when the game is free, but when they start charging, they need to be able to provide a service competitive with other pay to play games. I recently reactivated another MMORPG subscription and let me tell you, I don't think Square knows exactly what they are up against. Either that, or they are vastly underestimating their competition. Pretty graphics will only carry a title so far. -
11-03-2011, 02:34 AMBlarpOh yes, how horrible. A poster wants the quality of the product he's about to start paying for tested more. Woe is me. That is such an unreasonable request that he surely must be a troll. They should make another forum section called, "Fanboy circle jerk" so posters like you don't have their delicate sensibilities hurt when someone makes a suggestion or criticizes the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by nasomi
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11-03-2011, 02:37 AMBetelgeuzahTheir service isn't even competitive with other free to play games, yet the playerbase is in the tens of thousands.Quote:
when they start charging, they need to be able to provide a service competitive with other pay to play games.
Maybe they need to do that if they want to make the game profitable in the long run, but that's not even the point of the current subscription schedule. It's there to cover some costs, and that it will do.
That said, right now they don't need to provide competitive service to fulfill their goals pre-2.0. The game attracts certain type of consumer regardless.
It is.Quote:
That is such an unreasonable request
Being unable to consider the scope of what is being done to the game, and basing expectations on that is what makes it so. If they were to add a quest and said quest was bugged, that would require more play testing. If they were to rehaul all the algorithms that make the game function all at once, and one detail got released without proper balancing, bitching about it is being entirely unreasonable. -
11-03-2011, 02:50 AMBlarpThe scope of what they're trying to do is none of my concern. If I pay them money, I have certain expectations on the quality of the content they release. Isn't that how consumerism works? I pay you 20 dollars for cookies. You give me sugar, eggs, and flour mixed together in a bowl. I'm not going to pat you on the head and tell you it's okay because I know it's hard to make good cookies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-03-2011, 03:24 AMBetelgeuzahConsumers can also have too high expectations. If you aren't taking the scope into consideration, it sure is easy for that to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarp
The fact is that with this scale of changes you wouldn't be paying for cookies, you would be paying for a smorgasbord full of food from all over the globe. If the lobster ends up a bit too salty and your whole evening is ruined because of it, that's the case of expectations being held way too high. If only perfection is acceptable it is the consumer's fault, not the company's if it isn't met.
If this was about a small alteration of an existing mechanic and it was released buggy or unplayable, it is a whole different case and if you can not see the difference between that and rehauling the entire metagame you truly are hopeless.
In this field of work, the standards are lower than what SE has demonstrated with 1.18 and 1.19. Patches are released full of bugs, yet it is still acceptable as long as the content in it is substantial enough. It can't get really more substantial than changing the metagame completely, from algorithms to economy. -
11-03-2011, 03:34 AMBetelgeuzah
And even the smorgasbord comparison was a vast understatement. The workload is more akin to preparing all the food for the wedding of the king of Monaco, except much more delicate.
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11-03-2011, 03:56 AMSarchy_WarchyYoshi-P considers this a second beta since according to him it is "incomplete". Because of that, we ARE the play testers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold_Lion
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11-03-2011, 04:01 AMAvaSo then all of the loyal fans of the game, and genre that currently play but would rather pay for something that provides more fun, SE shouldn't care if those people quit for greener pastures? You're just a player, so I don't really care what you say and I learned via previous arguments with you that you are as stubborn as a rock, but SE needs to appeal to everyone that plays right now because v2.0 is at the very least a year away (i say at least, because I will not be surprised if it gets pushed back). A year is a lot of time for MMORPG players to get situated elsewhere and forget about coming back, even if they are a fan of Final Fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Yes, they aren't trying to go into full-blown profit mode, but they still can't be losing players. They need to hold on to enough to keep the game in the public eye because if it falls into the dark while it's getting updated it will require that much more marketing, which isn't cheap. And to hold onto players, they really need to look into providing a competitive service. -
11-03-2011, 04:06 AMSeirra_Lanzcesource, he says this is beta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarchy_Warchy
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11-03-2011, 04:09 AMBetelgeuzahAny convincing arguments as to how ~50k is "enough" and ~30k suddenly is not? By all accounts the game already is completely in the dark with such low numbers, and a small change won't make much of a difference there. They will have an uphill battle when 2.0 comes around regardless.Quote:
Yes, they aren't trying to go into full-blown profit mode, but they still can't be losing players. They need to hold on to enough to keep the game in the public eye because if it falls into the dark while it's getting updated it will require that much more marketing, which isn't cheap.
Not the current players. Otherwise they would have been lost already, as the service isn't and has never been competitive by any margin except graphics.Quote:
And to hold onto players, they really need to look into providing a competitive service.
You care enough to respond it seems...Quote:
I don't really care what you say
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11-03-2011, 04:16 AMTonyMontanaFixed that for ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarchy_Warchy
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11-03-2011, 04:27 AMBetelgeuzah
Every MMO company in existence says the same thing: MMO's are never complete.
OH MAI GAWD EVRY GAME IS IN BEETAH -
11-03-2011, 07:12 AMKafeenIts not just MMOs either. How many PC and console games get patches or DLC?! They're all incomplete!Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-03-2011, 07:49 AMBlarpThe difference is some MMO's focus on adding content and new mechanics while others focus on rebuilding nearly every fundamental aspect of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-03-2011, 03:13 PMAgoven
The backend of these systems are being carried over to 2.0. These currently designed systems are not getting thrown away. They will work better in 2.0.
As stated we are just now hitting 50% of the changes...complaints about classes isn't necessarily fair as many of the changes are gearing ready for job implementation. Without releasing jobs nobody can really accurately say whether or not all classes are balanced. They are tweaking classes substantially to integrate in the job system. We are playing in an environment of systems still to be integrated...so until jobs are fully integrated let's not prejudge whether classes are totally not balanced. Let's wait to see how the balancing act works first when all the systems are in.
Also, these people complaining about this class is OP vs this class because of a boss fight...That's just a STYLE of play and the I want gear mentality and so want to beat bosses like Ifrit as easy and fast as possible.
Also...SO WHAT? People who play Final Fantasy know that bosses have strengths and weaknesses...some classes will suck at some bosses. This whole notion that every class should be able to contribute to a boss is silly. Some bosses in previous FF games are immune to physical attack and you must use magic to kill them...etc etc. It's called STRATEGY!!!
OP poster I think you are reading some of the translations incorrectly. While one person is working on a quest line the assets and so forth and the coding etc are done by others. It's not one person is writing, coding and doing the artwork for a whole quest line dungeon or quest chain. It's you can only have one person coding the scenario. The scenario is written and story boarded by the team. Once approved it is sent to the art department for assets. The writer writes the text for the full scenario. Then these assets are handed to the coder which then puts the scenario together. You can't have multiple people working on the code of the scenario and this portion of the coding is fairly simple and straight forward. Mostly if..then statements and while loops easy peasy. -
11-03-2011, 03:21 PMBetelgeuzahOh, except this game does both. Either way no patch gets released without bugs or small design issues here and there. 1.18 and 1.19 were acceptable on any standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarp