Dark knight

I think thy should buff darkside from 15% to 25% r 30% like pld so drk can keep up with warrior i know ppl like tank to just stand n take dmg but if we can do good dmg too more ppl will play tank role thn duty finder won't be so slow

http://www.mememaker.net/static/imag...es/4419850.jpg

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Originally Posted by Valkyriearia

I think thy should buff darkside from 15% to 25% r 30% like pld so drk can keep up with warrior i know ppl like tank to just stand n take dmg but if we can do good dmg too more ppl will play tank role thn duty finder won't be so slow

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While we're at it let's change Living Dead/Dark Passenger/Dark Dance and make other skills cost health instead of mana! :D

Instead of asking to make drk the absolute king of tank dps you should maybe invest some time in learning to play it since drk is already very close to war dps if you discount fluffing of dps by going zerk on adds with the grp cheering the war. Also comparing darkside a permanent buff that takes barely anything to keep up with a cooldown on pld that has only 33% uptime is a good choice.

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

Instead of asking to make drk the absolute king of tank dps you should maybe invest some time in learning to play it since drk is already very close to war dps if you discount fluffing of dps by going zerk on adds with the grp cheering the war. Also comparing darkside a permanent buff that takes barely anything to keep up with a cooldown on pld that has only 33% uptime is a good choice.

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I do know how to play drk an war but i see warrior out doing both tanks everyday

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Originally Posted by Kingkie

While we're at it let's change Living Dead/Dark Passenger/Dark Dance and make other skills cost health instead of mana! :D

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that's a fantastic idea, then all the healers who don't want to dps have actually something to heal \^^/

>Join Date: June 2016
>Paladin Lv 60


So either:
You're a botter who spam levelled via fates to hit 60 on 2+ classes in 7 days OR you have no idea what you're talking about.

Either or, go away.

When you are playing all 3 tank classes in raid, come back and tell me about tank imbalance. That means clearing A5S at minimum.

Until then, you've not experienced proper tanking.

Sorry but your suggestion to buff darkside that insanely clearly shows you dont know how to play drk since it would become completely broken with a 25 or 30% dmg increase from darkside.

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

Instead of asking to make drk the absolute king of tank dps you should maybe invest some time in learning to play it since drk is already very close to war dps

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Seriously NOT. Got both at lvl 60 with ilevel around 216-220 and there is a lot of difference in my personal experience. Considering WAR can switch stance without a real backfire (try going on and off GRIT and say goodbye to your mana...), it's really a noticeable difference.

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Originally Posted by Lonestar77

Seriously NOT. Got both at lvl 60 with ilevel around 216-220 and there is a lot of difference in my personal experience. Considering WAR can switch stance without a real backfire (try going on and off GRIT and say goodbye to your mana...), it's really a noticeable difference.

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In tank stance it's Drk>war>pld over time. In OT it's War>>>>drk>pld.

And if you're stance dancing so often you're out of mp, doing it too often.

Oh rly? Goodbye to your mana? Everytime you drop grit you have blood weapon up or you did smth wrong and swap around way too much, as soon blood weapon is popped you regain even more mp than a grit reactivation would cost you. War can dance around at no cost apart from a 10s cd on it and no effect upon activating their tank stance, drk/pld on the other hand can use their tank stance as an additional cooldown. In the end its just a matter of l2p and nothing else but lets rather ask for buffs to make drk best in everything if played right and as good as the other 2 if played like a pld.

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

Oh rly? Goodbye to your mana? Everytime you drop grit you have blood weapon up or you did smth wrong and swap around way too much, as soon blood weapon is popped you regain even more mp than a grit reactivation would cost you. War can dance around at no cost apart from a 10s cd on it and no effect upon activating their tank stance, drk/pld on the other hand can use their tank stance as an additional cooldown. In the end its just a matter of l2p and nothing else but lets rather ask for buffs to make drk best in everything if played right and as good as the other 2 if played like a pld.

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Interesting idea: If played like PLD, DRK's damage actually is lower. Cause no MP regens.

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Originally Posted by Violette

>Join Date: June 2016
>Paladin Lv 60


So either:
You're a botter who spam levelled via fates to hit 60 on 2+ classes in 7 days OR you have no idea what you're talking about.

Either or, go away.

When you are playing all 3 tank classes in raid, come back and tell me about tank imbalance. That means clearing A5S at minimum.

Until then, you've not experienced proper tanking.

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Could you please link the source that states that clearing A5S is the minimum for experiencing proper tanking? I would appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Could you please link the source that states that clearing A5S is the minimum for experiencing proper tanking? I would appreciate it.

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It's not official, it's my own metric.

It's just if you're not raiding, you're not being forced to play the class anywhere near it's fullest. You're not trying out new things to squeeze an extra tankbuster in your cooldowns, extra tankiness out of your existing cooldowns while pushing your DPS to the extreme.
And A5S is so easy these days (and when it was released), clearing it isn't much of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Valkyriearia

I think thy should buff darkside from 15% to 25% r 30% like pld so drk can keep up with warrior i know ppl like tank to just stand n take dmg but if we can do good dmg too more ppl will play tank role thn duty finder won't be so slow

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Thats cool but WAR gets a buff to some of its mitigations so it can take tank busters easyier or even better let's make all the tanks the same!

I'm beginning to hate these threads.. well constructed ones I'm ok with as they show genuine interest in such things with maths and other things and a discussion can be had but this... no.. please..

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Originally Posted by Violette

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You do know the join date is when their forum account is made right? Not when they started playing. looking pretty silly with those condescending green text arrows if you didn't know. I've had my account way before October.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

You do know the join date is when their forum account is made right? Not when they started playing. looking pretty silly with those condescending green text arrows if you didn't know. I've had my account way before October.

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Back in my day, the account join date WAS the forum join date.

Also checked their profile no level 60 drk.

Well OP your wish has been granted this patch. Darkside will be boosted to 20% in PvP only. Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Lonestar77

Seriously NOT. Got both at lvl 60 with ilevel around 216-220 and there is a lot of difference in my personal experience. Considering WAR can switch stance without a real backfire (try going on and off GRIT and say goodbye to your mana...), it's really a noticeable difference.

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The difference is WAR is designed to stance dance more than DRK. Its reflected in the way the stances work. WAR takes a -25% to dmg to be in Defiance and loses its highest potency move meaning they want to get out of it and back into Deliverance ASAP. DRK on the other hand, sits at -8% to dmg while in Grit and still has access to all of its highest potency moves. What that means is WAR is going to have to stance dance more to get its avg % of out going damage higher. For example a WAR and a DRK that spends half the fight in tank stance and half the fight not - WAR (.75+1.05)/2= .9 DRK (.92+1.15)/2=1.035 WAR is going to want to spend more spend more time out of Defiance if possible to not have its outgoing damage hampered.

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Originally Posted by Violette

It's not official, it's my own metric.

It's just if you're not raiding, you're not being forced to play the class anywhere near it's fullest. You're not trying out new things to squeeze an extra tankbuster in your cooldowns, extra tankiness out of your existing cooldowns while pushing your DPS to the extreme.
And A5S is so easy these days (and when it was released), clearing it isn't much of a challenge.

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What is the basis for your metric? That more or less sounds like elitist rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

What is the basis for your metric? That more or less sounds like elitist rhetoric.

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I'm not going to ask an amateur chef for advice on how to cook fish, when I could ask a chef of 30 years experience in seafood.

Sure the amateur MAY be right, but he's lucky.
The chef with 30 years experience will know far more about it, and will have the experience I can trust in.

Dungeons/24 man's are so mind-blowingly easy from the tanks perspectives that you won't learn much from it. Midas Normal is also pretty easy, so it's only when we get into ACTUAL end game content.

There's a reason most groups faceroll "dungeon roulette: extreme". There's a reason most groups take 1-2 tries to clear all 24 man raids. So the average player can have fun, clear and get through relatively unscathed. There is nothing wrong with that.

But Faust forced people to do DAMAGE. You couldn't clear Faust week 1 with only 190 and ravana weapons, by not using enochian. You cannot clear Hummelfaust without knowing your damage rotations. You cannot solo tank Hummelfaust if you don't know your ability rotations. You can clear Sohr Kai and Hullbreaker hard without using a single defensive cooldown.

Hullbreak/Sohr Kai/Mhachi does not force you to stance dance. To squeeze out dps. To know fights inside out and tailor your rotation to a fight.
And that's the mark of a good healer/dps/tank. The ability to adapt and do their job well.

So until you've gone through that, you've not tested yourself. You can practice on a dummy all you like, but you're not actually getting good.

So that's why clearing A5S is what I call the benchmark for knowing ANY class. And even that's pushing it. My friends group's scholar didn't know what indom did, in A7S.

So you can call me elitist, but so what? What's the basis for your metric?

In my professional position, I can assure you that years of experience do not automatically mean you're better than others. I disagree that if the "amateur" is right, then he's just lucky. Either way, that's nonsense.

You can try and justify why you believe what you believe by your experiences but that does not set the official benchmark. It would be no different than a person who has done far more than you have coming here telling you that you're not a real tank because you've not done as much as he has.

I've known people who have been carried through content and use the fact that they've completed it to condescend others. I will never forget back in FFXI when the Ballista Royale came about. One of my friends was the best PVP player on our server. His team of 3 consisted of him, his linkshell leader and the leader's friend who was bad. They won the tournament. They were awarded with their Stars Caps. The leader's friend would post on forums about how he was the best Warrior because he had is Stars Cap and would always chime in with pseudo-advice to better players. It was annoying until my friend finally chimed in and said "we would have still won even if you were AFK". Moral of the story, never use personal experience as a benchmark.

I never claimed the term "elitist" was my metric. I stated that your metric was justified by elitist rhetorc. My basis? The official definition.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

In my professional position, I can assure you that years of experience do not automatically mean you're better than others. I disagree that if the "amateur" is right, then he's just lucky. Either way, that's nonsense.

You can try and justify why you believe what you believe by your experiences but that does not set the official benchmark. It would be no different than a person who has done far more than you have coming here telling you that you're not a real tank because you've not done as much as he has.

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Didn't say it was the official one though. Never claimed it.

But hey, you do you. I'm not saying someone isn't a real tank, I'm saying they've not been forced to play the game and learn how it works. And as such, there's a high chance they're going to have a misinterpretation of the classes capabilities.

I mean, it's not like people bitch weekly about:
LD so BAD IT SUCKS ARGH
GOD I HAD DRK'S LACK OF SYNERGY
WAAA MP MANAGEMENT IS TOO HARD PLEASE

And that all these players are the one's who don't raid.

Of course, I'm sorry your friend had to carry a lazy person through a tournament. But if you can't use personal experience to gauge a person, what do you use?

A scrying crystal?

You didn't say in any form "in my opinion, unless you've..." You stated that "if they have not done this, they're not..."

I do not agree that all the players who say those things are the players who do not raid. It's just players not content with certain short-comings. Maybe you don't express your concerns but that's your business.

I did not say personal experience, I said years of experience. There is a difference. If you've raided the same raid for 3 years and the next guy has raided 3 raids for 1 year.... Does that make sense?

Anyway, you're getting confused and side-tracked. The bottom line is that you shouldn't dismiss somebody's ideas or concerns or project ad hominem because they do not fit your idea of what constitutes them being worthy of having an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

You didn't say in any form "in my opinion, unless you've..." You stated that "if they have not done this, they're not..."

I do not agree that all the players who say those things are the players who do not raid. It's just players not content with certain short-comings. Maybe you don't express your concerns but that's your business.

I did not say personal experience, I said years of experience. There is a difference. If you've raided the same raid for 3 years and the next guy has raided 3 raids for 1 year.... Does that make sense?

Anyway, you're getting confused and side-tracked. The bottom line is that you shouldn't dismiss somebody's ideas or concerns or project ad hominem because they do not fit your idea of what constitutes them being worthy of having an opinion.

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I'll just dismiss them for being stupid and lacking in evidence.

Back on topic. We've been through this dark dance before when it comes to DRK changes. I feel like the PvP changes are just testing the water for now and if the devs feel DRK is lacking they will address it.

The fact they decreased cooldown on DA prior to line up our evasion buffs previously is proof of that.

I feel drk DPS isn't lacking at all. In our static I mt as drk and our ot is war. We both have our relics and (at least in my opinion) are knowledgeable in our jobs. With him going balls to the wall in a fight with no tank swap, I need two power slashes (really only one but I like the extra cushion) to never worry about aggro. My damage in real content that we farm (I'm still mt) is never far behind his. So in my opinion drk is fine, I welcome some more damage in PvP but pve is fine.

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Originally Posted by Violette

I'll just dismiss them for being stupid and lacking in evidence.

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If you believe that people who do not live up to your expectations or do not possess the evidence that you feel is worthy, that's your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

Sorry but your suggestion to buff darkside that insanely clearly shows you dont know how to play drk since it would become completely broken with a 25 or 30% dmg increase from darkside.

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I do know how to play drk this my alt character and she is lvl 60 all jobs

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Originally Posted by Valkyriearia

I do know how to play drk this my alt character and she is lvl 60 all jobs

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Can you explain your reasoning on this buff? Because +10-15% DPS is quite large, and as far as I'm aware the gap between DRK DPS and WAR DPS isn't that big. I'd be more than willing to look at the numbers if you've got them, though.

They could increase the damage % but only while grit is active. So only tank DPS goes up a smidge while straight DPS without grit stays the same.

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Originally Posted by Valkyriearia

I do know how to play drk this my alt character and she is lvl 60 all jobs

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Level 60 with a job only tells me you got to level 60 on a job.

I have level 60 bard and wouldn't say i know how to play it.
I can play it, but not to the same level as raiding bards.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

They could increase the damage % but only while grit is active. So only tank DPS goes up a smidge while straight DPS without grit stays the same.

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DRK's Grit DPS is already ridiculously high. It smokes Defiance and Shield Oath DPS by a noticeable margin.

"Smidge" already describes the gap between Grit DRK and non-Grit DRK, relative to the other tanks.

Where do people come up with these suggestions? Not being snarky I'm honestly very truly curious. Like, what is happening to you in your little world on your server playing DRK that you think it needs these things? o.o

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Originally Posted by Violette

Level 60 with a job only tells me you got to level 60 on a job.

I have level 60 bard and wouldn't say i know how to play it.
I can play it, but not to the same level as raiding bards.

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Actually, going by your standards that you've been speaking about, Valkyriearia is your ideal veteran.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

DRK's Grit DPS is already ridiculously high. It smokes Defiance and Shield Oath DPS by a noticeable margin.

"Smidge" already describes the gap between Grit DRK and non-Grit DRK, relative to the other tanks.

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I'd like to see some non-theoretical numbers, if you can find any.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Actually, going by your standards that you've been speaking about, Valkyriearia is your ideal veteran.

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Here are some non-theoretical numbers on tank DPS in midas savage

These numbers have nothing to do with the damage difference in Grit/ShO/Defiance though.

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Originally Posted by Valkyriearia

I think thy should buff darkside from 15% to 25% r 30% like pld so drk can keep up with warrior i know ppl like tank to just stand n take dmg but if we can do good dmg too more ppl will play tank role thn duty finder won't be so slow

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I'm too proud of this answer to only let it be used once, so here you go:

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

While we're at it, let's change Tempered Will for PLD, and make it so it now multiplies the potency of all your attacks by 3 for 45 seconds with a 60s recast, that also makes you shoot lasers.

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Originally Posted by Violette

Here are some non-theoretical numbers on tank DPS in midas savage

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I see 4% of those people being DRK. Does this help the statement that the difference between the 2 is small?