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After a bit of thought, I've come to terms with the automatic crafting system. The truth is, the current system simply only makes sense for you to spam standard - As you're learning your trade, and anyone who is learning learns best through familiar repetition (You would not want to use careful or rapid if you're unfamiliar with the materials, just to say). More or less, the only way to make the current system work outside of HQing, is, indeed, automating it.
The only reasonable alternative to automating the "learning the trade" standard synthesis and having the attempt to HQ an item a menu-based minigame, would be to have the entire process in general something akin to a flash game, or something you'd play on a NDS, involving perhaps meters and timing and such.
So for some of us, let's hope they get really inspired and go the innovated route and have a fun minigame. For the rest, the proposed system in 1.20 is hard to contest. The idea of quests and such is still viable and would be fun.
Actually, the real inspiration to this is that Yoshida announced Flash being used in the addon system possibly. It's not too wild to hope for a neat little crafting minigame with the new engine's possibilities!
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I've whined in plenty of places about hating how easy things are to be, so I just wanted to know how people in general feel about something that feels, to me, like a middle grounds between automation of the system and burdening down the community with having to think and prepare for crafting an item and spending time on it.
It's a given that most people who play this game dislike failing crafts, and dislike mashing Enter. I don't recall at any given point the majority of people wanting to do away with the minigame on skill up synths, but it seems Yoshida's plans is to do this possibly, but leave it there for HQ crafting ("two seperate craft systems") rather than make the mini-game more intuition/skill-based/fun for regular crafting. I assume this is because the community wants it, as Yoshida really wants to make you happy.
I'm in the apparently microscopically small portion of players who liked the parts system (A cotton robe = cotton robe back, front, cotton sleeves, so it's something like 4-5 synths total, which is all skillup, some of which can be supplied by higher level crafters at a mutual benefit). And I also liked craft classes being 'real' classes, so they duked it out with their synth (a minigame) every time, since they can't really fight.
With that said,
Would it really bother players if parts (brass axe heads, etc), and mass production (fishing lures, yarn, etc) took on this "Press synth, recieve item" approach 1.20 may bring, yet finished items (Cotton Dalmatica, Super Guy Sword, etc) require the minigame even without HQ?
I'm aware it'd be counterintuitive, since 99% of players cut corners religiously, and would simply avoid making finished items as skillup if it means avoiding the mini-game (which seems to be seen as a horrible burden, even if S-E could fix it to require thought) so it's sort of just being asked here because I can't truly understand how people just absolutely want to craft crap effortlessly. I'd personally try to HQ every finished item, but it's not the same, IMO. Does everyone really want the crafting system to be an afterthought/very simple, like in every other MMO, except have longer animations with tools?
I personally was attracted to FFXIV due to the depth of the crafting system.
1.20 Ease of crafting
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10-31-2011, 01:40 PMMirh1.20 Ease of crafting
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10-31-2011, 01:45 PMMirh
My proposition more or less covers how I craft. If I want brass nuggets or something, I spam Hasty Hand like my life depended on it. But the massive batch of Dated brass rings I made to sell to the NPC (about 400-500 now, don't ask) were done by spamming enter.
In the ideal setup, Hasty Hand would be replaced by automation for my materials, but I'd have to battle it out with the synth system to make rings. Even professionals can mess up now and then, and that's what the people who dislike fails don't seem to get. it's part of being human, even if it's not "fun." -
10-31-2011, 02:11 PMVexione
I would appreciate a system where the mini-game was always relevant, regardless of the item being crafted, but if we are going to see an automated craft system introduced into this game then I would really enjoy your approach to it (really, great idea). FFXIV's more involved crafting was one of the bigger things that separated the game from being just another WoW clone to me, so I'm not a big fan of S-E abandoning their original ideas completely. Parts were cool, and I do wish they stuck around, even if they simply tweaked the system a bit.
As it is right now crafting is very boring. -
10-31-2011, 10:25 PMJinko
Oh noes wow clone /sarcasm, is that the best insult you can pull out of hat of tricks.
I would sooner have a WoW style click a button and have something pop out than sit and press enter 5-6 times to get the same result.
Remove this tedious mini game and you remove the need for bots, its quite simple.
I totally agree with the way Yoshi is going, I hope they make the HQ mini game more complex so that bots can't complete it.
{P.s.} there is nothing difficult about the crafting mini game the majority of it is based on luck and spamming enter. -
10-31-2011, 10:43 PMSephrick
Hopefully they touch on their plans for crafting come Thursday's live letter.
The parts system was annoying at best because of lack of participation. There were a lot of times I wanted to make an item but couldn't because of those one or two oddball ingredients like specifically colored pieces or those whose rank were higher than the item I was attempting to make.
I like the way it is now. It's easier to find ingredients. I'm really looking forward to an insta-synth option for NQ synths that will, hopefully, give normal exp unlike Hasty Hand. I already spend hours gating mats, the rate at which DoH classes gain exp makes me not want to level them. -
11-01-2011, 12:11 AMMirhThat's one of the most ignorant things I've read in a while. He has a valid concern. It doesn't really come off as a petty insult if you aren't a Blizzard fanboy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
I liked WoW enough and I still don't think FFXIV should be like WoW beyond the reliable controls/UI. It's not a crime to feel that way. A game doesn't have to be very WoW like in every essence to be fun. As a 4+ year WoW player, I'd like to return to the MMO genre without WoW at my heels, personally.
As for everything else you said: The minigame could be made less tedious by making player input matter and it could be made challenging. You're talking about the current system as if it's the only way it could exist, when in reality it could be reformulated, still exist even for basic synthesis, and still work great.
It's truly a shame people immediately dismiss the system because the first time wasn't good enough. But it's obvious most people just didn't want it to work.
Haven't even been keeping up with the letter system, I'll have to watch out for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephrick
I'd like to think the parts system was before it's time - literally, rather than figuratively. Maybe it would have worked if they had strictly sold gear from NPCs until people were high enough crafters, then release recipes. Of course this would bring its own issues, but it wouldn't have been such a bad implication.
The ingredient changes definitely seem to make more sense, at least. -
11-01-2011, 12:24 AMSephrickIt could have worked just fine if there was a natural progression to parts. Instead they inexplicably had it reversed and a rank 15 item required parts from multiple crafts ranging from the low 20s to mid 30s. It was just too complex too soon.Quote:
I'd like to think the parts system was before it's time - literally, rather than figuratively. Maybe it would have worked if they had strictly sold gear from NPCs until people were high enough crafters, then release recipes. Of course this would bring its own issues, but it wouldn't have been such a bad implication.
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11-01-2011, 12:37 AMMirh
The odd progression of the parts made great sense when you consider that it (realistically) takes more skill to make the parts than it does to sew them together, but I suppose it doesn't really matter since the way it was, you had little choice at the time but to be pissed at the fact you couldn't make said item, or make a lower level one until you got past that range.
So, yea, definitely.
I wasn't around during that time due to being one of the "this UI lag makes me want to rip my hair out bye" leavers, so I'm only able to really go by stories.as a GSM I didn't run into the problem, but.. GSM, right? heh.(Actually, I ran into the problem because I desperately, indescribly deeply, would have given anything for, a half-robe in the early days. When it became clear I was out of luck I tried to make one, only to run into the whole "you need 20+ weaver to make a lvl 8 craft" deal. But I'm incredibly picky about how I look in a game, and most players care more about stats, and the half-robe wasn't that good... full robe was obtainable through many ways, easier to make, etc..So frustraiting as it were, it wasn't offensive to me ultimately.) -
11-01-2011, 01:44 AMtymora
I remember traveling the world as L7 CON to make my first robe on game release.
Took like 1 day+? Had to rank up everything to get all the parts done too. -
11-01-2011, 04:33 AMKiote
Personally, I think the current UI system needs to be scrapped. I really liked the "parts" as well. I felt they gave alot of depth to crafting and offered an affordable way to skill up. It was ok to simplify the crafting recipes in a sense, but what Yoshida did went way to far and made synthing hollow.
What we really need is an engaging mini-game that cannot be won by simply spamming the enter button. Players should have to think about what they are doing and making finished items SHOULD take extra time. But when it comes to gaining XP players should not be grinding on crafts to begin with.
Leveling crafting should be far more quest based than the current system allows. Other systems like retainers could be incorporated as well to create a system where selling your wares nets you experience. Something to the effect of the GC supply system but for crafter XP would be good too. It would only require the implementation of a system where the game recognizes that you created the item to prevent buying XP.
Crafters are supposed to be merchants as well, or at least thats how it has been described since the beginning of the game. We could also use a system of trading between merchants to earn XP.
User speaks to Merchant. Merchant requests item and provided investment capitol. User must obtain item under budget. Uses Parley on other merchants. Gets items under budget. Difference between budget and cost is converted to xp.
I would really like to see leveling crafting expand beyond it's current form. What we have now should be focused on making items that are intended for use. There is not reason for us to endlessly grind on a single item when there are a plethora of other ways we could incorporate to gain xp. -
11-01-2011, 04:54 AMEstellios
On paper, Crafting is for the most part excellent now. Doing a few leves gives you enough materials to make several pieces of gear and materials for everything is actually sold in the wards now, so it doesn't take me half a day to make something for someone when they need it. The parts system really had to go and was a step into making more people interested in crafting. Materia is another step and the future dying plans would be a 3rd.
The largest hurdle right now is how absurdly slow and boring crafts are to level. Something quest-based like Kiote said would work. I've toyed around with some system that rewards you greatly xp-wise for making gear that's low in stock in the wards (Market Ward Levequests? haha). As it is now as I level new crafts I make multiple items when i make something for myself and sell the excess so everyone can benefit. I know quite a few people that really do want to craft but the leveling up process is a nightmare, so if it's changed more people would get into it and it would help the economy greatly. -
11-01-2011, 06:55 AMsmokymcweed
waaa waaa waaa waaa yoshi is on the right track old crafting system is tedious lame boring and just plain stupid
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11-01-2011, 07:32 AMPhysicproblem is so far, it has only got more boring and less rewarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokymcweed
you used to be able to get a range of 800-1000 exp for the hardest synth, now you get 700. the actual success rate is so guaranteed as to make all skill use not matter for most items that net 500 exp.
Maybe his long term craft plans make sense, but what we have no is basically an afk sport.
Crafting is pretty gratifying when making gear people need, but the leveling process is complete foolishness right now.
The game needs to be more complex, and reward skillfull play, OR it needs to be completely automated. Another option as some one suggested is make it very quest based.
An idea i would have liked to see, is a recipe book added, with some quests to unlock recipes (and give exp) bonus exp for any new recipe, (and it gets added to the book which keeps a record of getting the recipe, completing the synth once, and HQing it each one would give some sort of exp)
add to that i would make the mini game itself reward more exp or items based on how well it was completed.
anyhow crafting now needs a lot of work it has slowly become almost pointless to do regular synths while paying attention. -
11-01-2011, 12:07 PMMirh@Kiote! Your ideas are incredible and definitely a breath of fresh air.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
Some people have gone to the extent of suggesting that the world should have quests such as repairing buildings/bridges, trinkets for NPCs, and so on. Really, there's so many possibilities to make crafting intriguing and draw even the most casual player in, but it would seem that none of these amazing ideas and scenarios such as yours are getting through to Yoshida, who continues to pump up players on the concept of things being as simple as possible to combat a current system of mindlessness.
@Physic Excellent point, as always, it seems.
As much as I disagree with Yoshida's clamoring to please the most religiously attention-deficit players, I'm sure his big picture plans in the end will be "quite good" for a simple reason, albeit not exactly more than a hunch: Gear and leveling crafting right now blows, but in 1.20 it supposed to be PLEASE LOOK FORWARD TO IT™ material.
What I mean here is, okay, take Goldsmithing. Dated gear is complete rubbish but is the most efficient to level on. Goldsmithing is getting a nice booster shot/revision in 1.20, just like gear, recipes, and so on. Until 1.20 happens, though, the current players (Who Yoshida seems to care most about, for good reason) are left hanging with, essentially, the scraps and remains of a dead era that Yoshida wants to put behind him - which is why it's hard to get gear for a reasonable price, for example.
To put it short and sweetly, the fact that it's agonizing now makes it seem like there are big plans for crafting, since Yoshida's track record so far is leaving large gaps of missing content and place value where, eventually something nice will come in a year or two (See: Leveling 1-50 super fast and feeling hollow and unearned).
Crafting itself was supposed to be something you had fun with. People want it automated because they're sick of dealing with idiotic systems that confuse them because the systems don't properly work. Making it complex, can also be making it fun. As much as I want masochistic, it doesn't have to be masochistic to require thought and be fun.
There are so may ways to do this besides making it automated but there's just not enough outcry for it. It's crazy.
I really do like the idea of the minigame simply rewarding more XP. Obviously not scaled to the sense of how Hasty Hand rewards you in comparison to a full synth, but I think that would be a nice medium. Being lazy isn't something the Japanese usually seemed to reward in their games, so it's insane to seem them playing ant farm with the Westerners in this regard to crafting. -
11-01-2011, 12:22 PMMirhI love it when people's answer to a bad design is to wipe it completely. If that were the standard, a lot of people wouldn't be born since they weren't conceived the first try. Just a thought!Quote:
Originally Posted by smokymcweed
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11-01-2011, 04:29 PMMirh
After a bit of thought, I've come to terms with the automatic crafting system. The truth is, the current system simply only makes sense for you to spam standard - As you're learning your trade, and anyone who is learning learns best through familiar repetition (You would not want to use careful or rapid if you're unfamiliar with the materials, just to say). More or less, the only way to make the current system work outside of HQing, is, indeed, automating it.
The only reasonable alternative to automating the "learning the trade" standard synthesis and having the attempt to HQ an item a menu-based minigame, would be to have the entire process in general something akin to a flash game, or something you'd play on a NDS, involving perhaps meters and timing and such.
So for some of us, let's hope they get really inspired and go the innovated route and have a fun minigame. For the rest, the proposed system in 1.20 is hard to contest. The idea of quests and such is still viable and would be fun. -
11-01-2011, 10:27 PMJinkoOriginally they might have been under Tanaka's lead, I feel Yoshi wants to just get rid of Crafting as a main class but can't do this for fear of the backlash it would create.Quote:
Crafters are supposed to be merchants as well, or at least thats how it has been described since the beginning of the game. We could also use a system of trading between merchants to earn XP.
Tanaka has set him up good and proper lol.
My head is still spinning from the impact Materia has had on U/U gear, of course crafting classes couldn't care less about it. -
11-02-2011, 02:11 AMKiote
Personally, I will never come to terms with the Automated system. Implementing this would only serve to give every player every level 50 craft.
No one would sell anything because they could make there own stuff
Max level crafts would be simply a matter of paying enough gil to get the materials
There would be 0 sense of achievement in crafting, HQing would be meaningless because anyone could do it.
It would serve to effectively subvert any chance that crafting could regain it's status as a full fledged Class
It would likely lead to a restriction on the number of crafts a player could do
It would eliminate any chance that things such as treatises and guild support would return to bring depth back to the classes
Guild marks would no longer be used to improve your class but would serve only as a method of buying crystals
Honestly, I could go on and on about the problems that Automated crafting would cause for this game. Most importantly, it would Destroy any chance of the classes become fun to play, it would once again destabilize the economy and it would exacerbate the current problem where crafting only serves to drive people into doing something else besides playing the game (afk crafting) -
11-02-2011, 06:10 AMJinko
The current mini game doesn't stop us from all have lvl 50 crafts ya know.
The fact is that the time spent doing it stops most from wanting to invest that time, even with an autoated system there will be a big time sink in getting to level 50.
If it becomes such a problem maybe they would need to add a system similar to how FF11 allowed you only to excell in one crafting class, although I'm sure there are better ways to do this like specialising in one class.
The majority of sales will no doubt be in HQ items once the new system is added anyway and will still require a great deal of work. -
11-02-2011, 07:21 AMAirget
If you make some synths automatic then the xp gains from them will be drastically reduced because of the reduced time to perform the synth as well as the reduced amount of variables done during said synth. As it stands now there are perhaps 8-10 variables of hitting standard to get to 100% maybe less maybe more based on what you are synthing and your luck. Also now everyone just spams enter all the time, for tougher synths I skillup on I do keep an eye on it and use Perfection and wait when needed waiting for the best time to attempt to complete the synth.l
But think about if you are Blacksmith 5 and trying to make iron ingots, if it's done automatically then perhaps you'll only have a 10-25% chance at success with a fail producing 25xp nd a success granting 100 xp. Now honestly think about it, would you rather have those synths be automatic with reduced xp gains or would you rather just keep it as it is where your xp gains per synth will range from 200-600 based on it's difficulty. While yes the gear synths would have the manuel crafting, it would just make it that much tougher to lv crafting to make it where parts are done automatically.
I've brought a few classes to 20 and I have become slightly burned out from it, so I'm taking my time, but I do believe that crafting should take this long to accomplish, the skill behind crafting is looking for the best synth and then preparing yourself properly for the long synth haul. The challenge itself comes from when you use what you've learned to produce gear for others and attempt to make HQ and such.
My highest craft is 37 CRP and I have takena break from it to level the other crafts since I am curious about the stories and at the same time interesting in trying to be a master of all trades, which is definitely a long process lol, but once I pull it off I"ll be rewarded with the ability to basically produce anything I'd like which imo is worth the grind we are faced with now.
It's all about patience, there's nothing wrong with the crafting system, it's just the fastest route to leveling is through the button spamming, or you can do guild leves which are "free" and grant additional xp when turned in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
That is one thing I'd like to see in the future, is specialization, where perhaps you can take every class to whatever cap, but only that craft class is your specialized craft and you can only produce x items cause of it.
Or perhaps when the journal is introduced we can obtain "Encrypted Recipes" where basically you have to analyze and study the recipe until you get it right, however you can only have a certain amount of recipes "stored". You would have the freedom to get rid of some recipes but then you would have to start from scratch if you wish to relearn it. And it wouldn't be a process as easy as taking 10 synths to accomplish it would be more like a mystery sorta like.
Feather Blade? 0-25%
Wing Blade? 26-50%
Blade of Wind 51-75%
Hurricane Blade 76-99%
Blade of the Fallen Angel 100%
So basically the above would be one recipe concept, when you first recieve it you analyze it as something called the Feath Blade. it's synth recipe you percieve as a Cock Feather, iron ingot and maple lumber. After fiddling around with that recipe and learning from it you learn that perhaps the recipe is more complex then what you've been trying and decide to try Wildfowl Feather, Steel ingot and Oak lumber. Then you reach the 50% and are enlightened by another idea that's surfaced from the recipe, you learn that perhaps it isn't a wing but the wind element. From that point you add the tier 1 elemental wind stone, myhrtil ingot and mahagonu lumber. From there you are enlightened again and decide to synth witha higher tier wind elemental stone, colbat ingot and rosewood lumber.
Then finally after all that crafting and understanding of the recipe you learn the true design of the recipe which is "Blade of the Fallen Angel". Then of course the synth for that is something like tier 3 dark elemental, wind, and light elemental stone, a cobalt ingot empowered with the wind element and a rosewood lumber empowered with the dark element. From that point on you would be able to produce any of those items but the true reward is obtaining the knowledge to produce the "Blade of the Fallen Angel"
When it comes to said weapons:
Feather Blade? 0-25% 6 wind shards
Wing Blade? 26-50% 12 wind shard
Blade of Wind 51-75% 1 wind crystal
Hurricane Blade 76-99% 12 wind crystals
Blade of the Fallen Angel 100% 1 wind cluster
The crystals required to synth them would be quite high so it would be quite the adventure to try and rank them up however when it comes to the first 4 pieces, they don't produce materia but rather "knowledge" which can be used on the same recipe it came from to increase your knowledge rate of the recipe.
Though it would be limited by the recipe level so Feather Blade "materia" could only help you with the knowledge from 0-25% and so forth. In this essence crafters in linkshells could enlist the help of their comrades to break in and study the weapon in order to help them in learning the recipe as a whole rather then going through the process of always synthing the recipe for every % of knowledge.
When it comes to "Blade of the Fallen Angel" you would be able to turn it into a unique materia. So ya, just an idea that popped into my head when Is aw that but I think it could help with conceptualizing a specialization for crafting lol. -
11-02-2011, 07:29 AMPhysicwhen you hit 40 its 80k tnl, when you hit 45 its like 87k, but the higher you go, the less challenging synths that are available, by the time you hit say 47, you can enter spam and get virtually the same results, but you will probably have to do approx 200 synths per level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airget
I will admit leves help a lot toward the end, if you select only high level, but really, its a pretty bad grind, with a really thoughtless path.
If as you say, its more about procuring the items and choosing which recipes take best advantage of what you have (which will be a reduced plan without books, subcrafts etc) then essentially everything except the actual process of crafting serves a purpose.
Thats essentially the issue, all your gringing craft is purposeless, what you do while doing it doesnt matter.
Its exactly equivalent to if you got the same EXP for doing Auto attack in battle as you do for doing all sorts of crazy combos, except there is no AA, and no flashy visual effects.
This is the crafting minigame as it stands, a hit the button to level up, but hit it alot a whhhoooolllee lot.
come to think of it, if its going to be a button masher, at least let me hit the the button as fast as i can that might be a little more thrilling
HQing is a different beast though -
11-03-2011, 03:18 PMKenJammin
Does anyone have the link to where this is stated? I'm not doubting its existence i've just read over almost all of yoshi-p's stuff and i must have missed it.
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11-04-2011, 12:36 AMKioteTo my Knowledge it hasn't been. The only things I've seen, and I read everything, is that HQ mat will guarentee HQ results. Nothing else has been discussed about the future of the crafting system. Of course, we should have heard something last night.. But we didn't..Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJammin
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11-04-2011, 05:04 AMDerkatronNot sure what news you guys are referring to, but this is where the 'no more failures and automated system for even level synths with no hq' concept is coming from:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
11. What are you planning on doing about the monotonous crafting mechanics? People literally sit and press enter for hours on end. Why was this specific crafting style chosen over something simplistic and automatic ala World of Warcraft?
Sonomaa (BG): What are you planning on doing about the monotonous crafting mechanics? People literally sit and press enter for hours on end. Why was this specific crafting style chosen over something simplistic and automatic ala World of Warcraft? I hate to keep going back to World of Warcraft, but they're winning.
Square-Enix: It's a matter of priority so far. For the past 10 months, we prioritized all of the things we thought we needed to get fixed first. On the top of that list: UI, Battle System. Also, Content, where the content was based on Guildleves. So, over the past 10 months, it has been fixing the things that needed fixes and adding more content. With the Crafting System, again, we prioritized what needed to be fixed first. The first thing that needed to be fixed was that the Recipe System was way too complex - way too many ingredients, way too many steps to get to your final product. Something that was way too difficult for the novice player to get into. You would have to be hardcore if you wanted to make something. So getting those things fixed first was our priority.
[Yoshida speaks more]
And he's going on more; it's the amount of materials you needed. It wasn't just pressing Enter, it was having to get ALL of these materials before pressing Enter. And so the next step, which we hope to do really soon, is now shorten the number of steps to actually do the crafting. Instead of, you know, sitting down, doing the thing, standing up, getting your stuff, etc. Consolidate all of it and cut down on the steps is the next step being taken.
And one of the things we're planning is two different crafting systems. One that's very simplified and that you're going just for the item you need without having to worry about High Quality, with a small chance of High Quality. Then there's the other system, where it will take more time and effort, but the chance of getting that High Quality item will become higher. So the people who want to spend more time and do it carefully will have the higher chance of a High Quality, and then the people who want to get it done, they have the consolidated system.
BG: Will you be abolishing breaks? Like FFXI had breaks, where you could lose everything and it was heartbreaking.
SE: Yes, we've already begun discussing removing that loss probability. If it's below, at, or just a bit above your crafting level, then the loss probability would be removed. But if it's something far above your crafting level - if you succeed, then you get the experience bonus, but if it is far above your level, having those item lost are a good way...
BG: Agreed. Good.
SE: That's the standard, and we hope to get to that. That's what we're thinking.
BG: I just hated making arrows with my Ranger in FFXI that were 30 points below and blowing up the whole thing. Why am I blowing up my arrows?
SE: [Discussion and laughs among the SE staff] We'll take that into consideration.
Full interview is here:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/107...-Transcription -
11-04-2011, 07:10 AMemblasochist
Personally, I have a few things to argue about your concerns.
First off, not everyone WANTS to be a crafter. I know a lot of people who couldn't give a damn about crafting in MMOs. Not everyone will just because it's the best way for an individual to wear their war/magic classes' armors.
There are also some people that WANT to craft more than they want to play a war/magic class. Personally, I fall into the category that prefers the crafting and gathering over combat. I still play a pugilist, but that's because it's what I started as and there's some things that you have to rank up in combat classes to be able to experience the fun stuff of the game, be it a company chocobo or raids or whatever.
Not everyone would do automated crafts all the time; I personally would do it just when I needed to grind through a bunch of mats I had that were burning a hole in my slots, because, in spite of the failures, I LIKE the crafting and gathering minigames.
Not everyone pays attention to the economies of their servers. Just a couple days ago I bought a stack of zinc ores from a retainer for ~ 10k, whereas it vends for ~ 1k a piece. That's the lowest I've seen it on Mysidia, true, but the economy is broken in MMOs in general. There's always people making profits from selling their wares on AH when you can buy it from a merchant for pennies on the dollar, and there's also people that sell stuff at deep "discount", because they don't need the gil as much as they need the space.
Furthermore, HQ'ing still looks like it won't really be SIMPLE for anyone just because they powerleveled their crafts to 50 and bought the best tools. You'll still need to know how to actually craft well, from my understanding, rather than just knowing to break your enter key...
That said, if everyone DID have the inclination to level their crafts to max once automation is implemented, it'd have some of the effects you mentioned. Sure, guild marks will eventually become worthless. Guild support and treatises will be killed, and crafting will become less acknowledged as a class, but again, IFF EVERYONE just decides to grindcraft to 50 in their crafts...
Personally, I think that some people will never bother picking up a pickaxe or a chaser hammer, and some won't just automate their crafts, because automating them doesn't teach you how to HQ. -
11-08-2011, 03:26 AMKioteDon't have time to read the full article atm, but what you quoted does not mention automated crafting at all. It mentions making NQ Faster and Easier with a minimal chance of HQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derkatron
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11-08-2011, 04:18 AMDerkatron
"SE: Yes, we've already begun discussing removing that loss probability. If it's below, at, or just a bit above your crafting level, then the loss probability would be removed. But if it's something far above your crafting level - if you succeed, then you get the experience bonus, but if it is far above your level, having those item lost are a good way..."
Removing the possibility of loss in a 'very simplified' crafting scenario for NQ recipes sounds like an instant completion to me (a minigame with no risk of failure and no chance of HQ would be COMPLETELY pointless). So while there's no way to know if it's automated or not (I apologize for using that word, I was just trying to tie it into the discussion) it definitely sounds like a non-minigame, zero-risk, instant completion way of crafting for moderate xp gains. Which is SPECTACULAR, in this lala's opinion. -
11-08-2011, 10:37 AMJinkoDoes faster and easier not suggest automated to you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
Obviously you do need to read between the lines a bit and thats never advisable lol but I can't see what else they have in mind. -
11-08-2011, 12:12 PMWinterSkyblueI am touch by this sentence. Yes, me too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirh
If SE just modify the crafting system like those SH--IT childhood like RPG game, I will leave this game.
SE, let me tell you something:
Around me and my LS, >80% people love battle, they rank up all their battle jobs in 3-4 months and leave even before 1.6, me and my friends those love crafting and gathering states in this game for whole year.
Yes, after 1.19, some of those battle field people back, but will they pay for this game? or how long will they play? Most of them said they will pay for 1-2 months to try new battle system / new monster and then leave again. Only those crafting and gathering people said will pay for long time (>6 months).
So even crafting and gathering player is minor, but we are repeating customer. How would you treat us like nothing!? Just to please those battle field players, removing the distinguishing features and then turn FFXIV alike those childhood-like RPG game. -
11-09-2011, 01:09 AMKiote
The Crafters and Gatherers are the only reason this game didn't get pulled. The vast Majority of people who didn't like Crafting or Gathering quit. Yet for some reason, Yoshida feels the need to punish us for staying in the hopes that it will make the people who will never like crafting come back.. Asinine.
It's Ok to make something easier in the hopes of bringing in more people. But it is not Ok to remove the experience of dedicated players to coerce people who can never be satisfied.
Most people will not like crafting unless you remove the levels and let them make whatever they want all the time. Auto-crafting moves way to far in that direction. -
11-09-2011, 11:53 PMJinko
So basically they should make this game for crafters and gatherers and battle content should be an after though, do you realise that the reason why you craft and gather is to support the battle classes, who else will buy your equipment and items if not them ?
You may of stuck around during the games "dark days" but that says more about you and that you can get by on doing the same mundane tasks every day, not everyone is cut out for that, should you be commended for that, personally I don't think so. -
11-10-2011, 02:21 AMKioteThis may well be the most ignorant thing I've ever seen you post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
Not one single person has ever suggested that Battle Content should take a back seat to Gathering or Crafting. We have only pointed out that Gathering and Crafting are both very popular activities that do not deserve to be dismantled and ignored.
It is not unreasonable to want content for every kind of class.
It is not unreasonable to want your favorite class to maintain a significant role in the game.
It is not unreasonable to ask for engaging game play mechanics.
It is, however, unreasonable to say that Crafting and Gathering do not bring in and maintain a player base. This game maintained a population solely on these classes. People have shown time and time again that there is a very large dedicated audience to these kind of activities. In FFXIV it is one of the few remaining features that stand out among other eMMOs. If this game is to ever have any hope of become a top tier MMO the Dev team needs to embrace these unique features and improve upon them. They need to stop ignoring and dismantling them. -
11-10-2011, 02:55 AMPhysicactually they should make the game good, and no class should be an afterthought. In fact they really dont need to bump heads at all. Neither needs to be an afterthought. However the class that trains and dedicates itself to making items, should probably be able to make good items, and probably not have it be boring and suck? I would imagine the class that excells at battles will be able to battle anything, and not have it be boring and suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinko
As a random sidethought, thinking about having special facilities that a crafter can use in an open world dungeon, could offer a really interesting group mechanic. Where you fight your way into a dungeon and have to basically defend the crafter and craft area while they make rare or special items. This would involve both the crafter and the battle class. They could even have NMs whose spawn conditions are dependent on how long you can hold one of these spots.
crafting and battle dont need to be at odds with each other -
11-10-2011, 06:25 AMAtheena
Really do i want a stupid mini-game in my crafting? I mean crafting it's self is a second job away from my real job! I'd rather have FFXI's old crafting system than FFXIV's crafting anyday! Just make it harder to get HQ and Rare items from mobs to make higher tier gear!
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11-10-2011, 06:30 AMAtheenaOkay after they craft all this crap (players like you) and battle players (like me) doesn't come back to this game in its current state, who will buy your wares? This crafting system is the worst out there among today's and even older mmo's!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
Nothing wrong with WoW's crafting system it actually works as Jewel Crafting/mining made me tons of money with out having to make crafting my second job next to my real life one! -
11-10-2011, 06:55 AMPhysicjust dont craft, you want to make money, gathering is a better bet. but you ll have to look at the market to see what items are in high demand. Crafting for most crafts is foremost about making items, if you dont want to make items, why waste your time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheena
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11-10-2011, 10:59 PMJinkoThey maintained a population because people wanted to play the game and had nothing else to do, many ofthose crafters and gatherers were also leveling battle classes aswell thats why you see so many people with all (most) their classes maxed out at 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
You are getting content for gathering and crafting classes its just not the most important aspect for the dev team.
I make more money from my crafting than my gathering, perhaps my gathering is still to low though. /shrugsQuote:
Originally Posted by Physic
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11-15-2011, 02:03 AMLucifer
Remove the mini-game, that's fine, but bring back the complex recipes.
Instant gratification is becoming more and more apparent. It's disgusting. Do you people not have jobs? Do you get paid every minute you work? No you do not. You get paid every week or every two weeks or every month. It all varies where you work.
They are trying to sell this game to children and I am becoming more and more dissatisfied with it.