Darkside gives a additional 5% and Sole Survivor afflicts a 10% damage taken in PvP. That's unfortunate, but on a side note congratulations Bards.
3.3 Dark Knight PvP
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06-03-2016, 06:30 PMEdgyLatinName3.3 Dark Knight PvP
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06-03-2016, 07:33 PMauron_seifer
Hummm...people seem to be complaining that MCH is OP...I wonder how we can fix that.....I GOT IT, LETS BUFF BRD!!
I get that those buffs are more PvE related...but man oh man BRD didn't need buffs, its already strong, you just broke it even further and I can already see the flocks of bowmages invading pvp (-_-)
I have to wonder, do the devs play this game at all? Where do they come up with this crap? You guys never learn, I would be laughing my ass off if this wasn't so sad and another show that this dev team has NO CLUE how to balance anything pvp related.
On a side note, as a SMN I have to thank you guys for buffing the weakest ranged WITH A 10 POTENCY GARUDA BUFF!!! I'M SO HAPPY!
Seriously, get your act together these balance changes are ridiculous...if any ranged needs buffs its SMN because you completely butchered it last time you touched it.
Stop being incompetent and just looking at numbers, pick up a KB + Mouse or a controller and play the game you work on...anyone with even a small amount of pvp experience would know those buffs are simply ridiculous. -
06-03-2016, 10:13 PMNalien
Another Dark Knight patch, another disappointment... How do you keep doing this SE?
Thanks for the extra damage I guess, but not only have you failed to address the MP issue, you've potentially made it worse... Hopefully that extra damage means we can reliably kill someone with Sole Survivor on, but I'll miss tossing it on boxes for ensured MP recovery... Sole Survivor on a person is always just a Benediction/etc. away from being rendered moot... Less of a waste now, since it'll still increase damage dealt even if they don't die before it wears, but MP is really Dark Knights primary problem... At the very least I guess the skill level required to play Dark Knight effectively and manage MP is now more rewarding, as it should be, but 90% of Dark Knights are still going to suck because they can't manage MP for shit...
Still arguably weaker than Warrior, which I don't think is nearly as hard to play... They still get what, an extra 5% damage over Dark Knight, plus Berserk and plus the 10% slashing debuff, oh and a mountain of crit... Darkside trumps Maim in terms of ease of use and you can maybe argue Sole Survivor now acts as a nice version of Storm's Eye, but Dark Knight is entirely reliant on Dark Arts for its damage, and I'd say MP management is a hell of a lot harder than building stacks of Abandon... Plus Warrior still has superior utility... How does anyone, much less the developers of the damn game, look at Dark Knight and think the only problem is damage?
Whatever though, it's better than nothing... Just incredibly irritating how out of touch the developers seemingly are... -
06-04-2016, 01:38 AMUltimatecalibur
Its easy to say that these buffs will not be enough, but the real question is how many previous failed kills with a Dark Knight in a party would have been successful if the Dark Knight was dealing ~4% more damage and the target was taking 10% more damage? Is this number large enough that these changes will close the gap between Paladin/Warrior effectiveness and Dark Knight effectiveness?
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06-04-2016, 01:49 AMEdgyLatinNameI can tell you right now its not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
A 120 second 10% extra damage does not beat a warrior memecombo (ontop of a DMG buff if they have it) almost 2 shotting a dps and outside of berserk still doing great damage.
I like Dark Knight a lot, but we gotta accept that SE has no idea what they're doing and that the class was constructed without a single thought of PvP in mind (which is weird because the Feast has apparently been on the drawing board for a long time). It also doesn't help that a lot of suggestions for Dark Knight are reddit tier, the class either needs good utility on most of its skills (not just buffing some garbage drain) or make it more damage oriented like Warrior. In a perfect world, we'd see class representation at the end of the season (but unfortunately due to how this game works that's pointless) where paladin and dark knight representation stand because I'm monitoring Chaos / Aether / Primal daily and neither of those classes exist, it's warrior 24 / 7.
Least we got Shatter heh. -
06-04-2016, 04:29 AMUltimatecaliburConsidering how much people complaining about Machinist and Bard burst as well, which will be boosted by Sole Sacrifice, it might be far more effective than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgyLatinName
That is mainly because Warrior effectiveness is mostly independent of the rest of its party members. A Paladin needs two good DpS in party in order to kill targets while they lock down the healer. A Warrior only needs two mediocre dps focusing the same target to be effective. The question will be how good the two dps will need to be for the Dark Knight to be effective.Quote:
I like Dark Knight a lot, but we gotta accept that SE has no idea what they're doing and that the class was constructed without a single thought of PvP in mind (which is weird because the Feast has apparently been on the drawing board for a long time). It also doesn't help that a lot of suggestions for Dark Knight are reddit tier, the class either needs good utility on most of its skills (not just buffing some garbage drain) or make it more damage oriented like Warrior. In a perfect world, we'd see class representation at the end of the season (but unfortunately due to how this game works that's pointless) where paladin and dark knight representation stand because I'm monitoring Chaos / Aether / Primal daily and neither of those classes exist, it's warrior 24 / 7.
I'm cautiously optimistic that these buffs will be enough to make the Dark Knight usable in the Feast (which is the Dark Knight's current problem). If this works, I hope that they start working on balancing the three tanks (which may involve nerfing Warrior's burst) when Season 2 starts. -
06-04-2016, 04:53 AMFebrusI agree with this. It's an issue that became far more apparent to me after reaching silver rank. On Pld, I am totally reliant on the Dps actually having a clue what they're doing. I can't count how many times I've seen lack luster dps players completely waste a Full Swing / Healer stun combo and let what is essentially a free kill slip through their fingers. In the same circumstances, however, a War can just go, 'meh, FELL CLEAVE X2" and carry the team. Considering it takes next to no skill to work that rotation, it's ridiculous how much of a discrepancy there is in the damage being outputted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Something definitely has to be done about the tank balance, because at this point War might as well be the only viable choice for all of the content in the game. -
06-04-2016, 04:53 AMNalienThey wont... Dark Knight isn't unusable in Feast because of low damage, played well it can already throw out some impressive numbers, the problem is that almost the entirety of the Job is tied to MP, and Dark Knights MP recovery just straight up was not designed with PvP in mind... This adjustment wont change a thing, you'll still have Dark Knights who are complete dead weights because they can't manage their MP effectively... They'll get midway through a match and have no MP to push DPS, they'll start getting focused and be unable to put up Grit, and they'll still have incredibly weak self healing and stopping power...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Meanwhile, I'm stuck managing my MP and having far more steps to my burst than Warrior, and even with this change I wont be seeing Warrior numbers... Balance~Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Healer in a bind? Blind and Carnal Chill are not the sort of things I'd want as a healer in Attunement... An AoE Stun and/or AoE +25% HP heal are... But hey, Carnal Chill can theoretically shut down a burst, shame you really have to be on the ball to spot when and where a burst is coming from for that to apply... The reward for that level of skill? Subpar compared to everything Paladin offers, IMO. You can't Purify Testudo and you can't Carnal Chill a Limit Break... -
06-04-2016, 07:25 AMFebrusOh, I hear you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I'm not disagreeing that Drk is still in the absolute worst spot in regards to tanks in PvP. I'm just saying that Pld's suffer similar drawbacks when compared to War's, and some of those drawbacks can actually be considered worse, because a lot of them are outside of the Pld's control. The problem is that Pld's utility in team in defense is MASSIVELY overshadowed by the amount of dps it costs them on offense, and their utility can be actively sabotaged by their own team.
Firstly, no matter how good that utility is, it doesn't do the team any good if the dps can't score a kill. In circumstances in which the dps is lacking (or just flat out sucks), the best a Pld can hope to do is put off the inevitable. Maybe, just maybe, they can drag out their party defense to force a stalemate, but 1) that also requires some damn good healing, and 2) once culling time starts up all bets are off.
Secondly, there are limits to the amount of party defense a Pld can actually provide. Testudo and DV are on obnoxiously long CD's. If you could purify Testudo, then it would be practically useless. Pld's also have to split their attention far more than any other job. Even with the most fluid stun in the game, they have to be on the ball to know when and where it will actually be useful, otherwise it's wasted, and it's not just the enemy team they have to pay attention to. If anyone else on their own team throws out a stun/sleep before or during the Pld's stun rotation, they pretty much ruined it by reducing the effective CC timer. Having to disengage to help the healer with Clemency or Cover is wasted Dps time, and even if they execute their stun-lock perfectly, it can still be wasted by lack luster dps.
In a lot of ways, Pld is the perfect party-oriented tank. It seems to have been genuinely made to function at it's best when working with a coordinated group (PvP only, mind you, since in PvE it lacks in every way possible). Unfortunately, that exact design means that it stands to lose the most if the team isn't coordinated. By comparison, any tank that can function self-sufficiently for any amount of time has a leg up on Pld. -
06-04-2016, 08:30 AMExiraManaging mp...? What are you power slashing? MP recovery is not even the problem with DRK. More steps to burst? OH you mean two GCDs to build soul eater while a warrior has to build stacks? lol. The problem is that it sits in a weird place between PLD utility and WAR damage. You type like you just want a second warrior which I dont think is the answer. These changes will definitely bring an option worth testing in the high level light party scene. I'm sorry you don't see past mp and damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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06-04-2016, 11:32 PMFREEHURP
I was hoping for a magic {Cover} and a magic {Testudo} equivalent to PLD's physical party buffs. I think that would bring a great asset to DRK for defense capabilities. As far as offence goes, since Soul Eater is dependent dark side which is dependent on MP i say buff soul eater 50-70 more potency since it cannot be easily zerged x2 back to back like fell cleave and reduce mp consumption of dark side or increase the MP recovered from their riot blade equivalent (i forgot the name).
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06-04-2016, 11:35 PMNalienNo, I'm using Dark Arts, you know, that thing that costs ~1/4 of my total MP? Blood Weapon will maybe amount to a free Dark Arts, but my burst will still burn through half my MP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
I don't actually have great difficulty with my MP, but watching other Dark Knights I can tell they do... That's my point, MP management is a factor for Dark Knights. Blood Price is essentially worthless, and Blood Weapon is one Fluid Aura/Sleep/good kiting/etc. away from joining it. MP recovery in PvP is less effective than PvE, meanwhile Dark Arts is more important... Unless SE addresses that, most Dark Knights are still going to suck...
That's just burst too, if I really want to take advantage of defensive cooldowns, I'll ideally want to toss up Grit (1326MP). A Dark Arts Dark Dance Dark Arts Dark Passenger combo has always served me well if I get focused, but that's ~4,4k MP of my ~6,6k MP pool... With the lovely added effect of rendering Blood Price less effective, despite the fact that I'm actually being focused enough to warrant it and would just have spent enough MP to definitely want it... Meanwhile Grit renders Blood Weapon unusable, thus essentially damning Dark Knights MP, while Warrior can effectively just switch between Deliverance and Defiance with no real cost... Plus, if a Warrior is being focused, they not only have more HP, they essentially have four heals at their disposal (Second Wind, Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, Thrill of War), while the only self heal Dark Knight has worth considering is oddly Tar Pit, the drain on Abyssal Drain and Grit Souleater simply aren't designed with PvP in mind. They're designed for large AoEs of trash and long drawn out fights respectively, not PvP bursts...
Let me correct myself, more steps during its burst... With Infuriate, at least... Then Warrior essentially just becomes Fell Cleave > Infuriate > Fell Cleave. There's more to Warriors buildup, but I'd also say Abandon is more plentiful than MP and less in demand... Those stacks are essentially just for Fell Cleave, MP/Dark Arts is for more than just burst...Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of utility and damage? I'm sorry, what?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
How does Dark Knight have more utility than Warrior? Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Thrill of War, Brutal Swing, Mythril Tempest and Holmgang... Possibly Mantra as well unless you're using Provoke in PvP for some reason... I suppose we can drop Strom's Eye from that list, given the healing debuff is gone and it only really serves the Warrior at this point...
On paper, Dark Knight has Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Arts Dark Passenger (Blind), Tar Pit (Heavy), Carnal Chill (-60% damage), Delirium, and now Sole Survivor. In reality, Delirium (and Rage of Halone for Paladin, although that'll always be good to drop on the opposing tank) is rendered moot depending on your opponents, Storm's Path is not. Reprisal rarely triggers at all, and the duration to use it is short enough that even if it does trigger (usually due to a Bard/Machinist) it can be entirely wasted... Blind is mostly meh, and that's before we consider the MP cost involved (~2,6k), plus it can actually be dodged... Heavy is likewise fairly lackluster, Tar Pits main utility is burst and/or healing... Carnal Chill and Sole Survivor are the only things with any real merit to them, but like I said, Carnal Chill requires a lot of skill to be used effectively and even then it can just be Purified... Arguably the same is true for Holmgang, but I'd like to see someone Purify Thrill of War...
If anything, Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of mitigation and damage, though a fat lot of good that does in PvP... Even then, we shouldn't ignore Warriors self healing capabilities if we're making that comparison... Nor the potential difficulty Dark Knight can have with Grit...
I was thinking they could adjust Dark Mind to effectively do this, but meh... That still puts Dark Knight in a shitty place due to how SE balanced parties and roles... Every party will always have two physical Jobs, perhaps a third... The only magical Job we're guaranteed is the healer, which isn't offense... Going down the mage tank route is OK for PvE, but the game just doesn't have an even spread of physical and magical damage to make it worthwhile in PvP IMO...Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEHURP
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06-05-2016, 02:11 AMXenosan
Better than nothing but man if they had nerfed Another Victim down to a 10 second duration, mmm that Vulnerability Up debuff may have be plausible in PVE..
Why the change to the Provoke animation? I'm curious as to what the reasoning is,
Foolishly hopeful that MP recovery is something they're aware of and saving for 4.x, when there's a job adjustments across the board. With additions to the kit as unique and integral as Form Shift and Meditation was/is for Monk. -
06-05-2016, 03:39 AMExiraKEK. You know you have Syphon Strike that gives you half of a Dark Arts, right? It should be the only combo you're using. The Double DAs burst combo is every 60s so I still don't see the issue. Not to mention that Darkside consumes considerably less MP in PvP vs PvE. Are you trying to DA every Soul Eater?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Your argument is that bad DRKs suck at MP management. That can be said for any job that has to manage buffs/duration. MP management is quite literally the core of DRK much as BoTD(DRG), GL3(MNK), Huton(NIN), Aetherflow(SMN/SCH), etc. SE should not balance the game around horrible players that can't do basic management.
"Blood Weapon is one Fluid Aura/Sleep/good kiting/etc." This applies to most buffs for like every job. Getting CC'd/Kited is and has always been a great way to disrupt players/mitigate burst. The same exact scenario can be applied to Berserk, which is what makes WAR's burst so powerful. CC'ing/Kiting a WAR's Berserk is how many high level players deal with WAR, and like Blood Weapon, it can be removed. Intelligently using cds is how you win in PvP.
If you're switching to defense go into Grit and space out Shadow Skin and Shadow Wall while using Blood Price, then use DA + Dark Passenger/Dark Dance so not to waste Blood Price. Or vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
"Plus, if a Warrior is being focused, they not only have more HP, they essentially have four heals at their disposal". And DRK has powerful defense CDs and Debuffs.
When a PLD/DRK goes into their Tank stance they instantly take 20% less damage, when WAR switches they gain Max HP and more healing received. WAR has to heal themselves/receive heals to get that instant benefit of being in Defiance. Even though WAR has more HP it's comparable to 20% damage reduction which has been calculated time and again in the tank forums.
"Possibly Mantra as well unless you're using Provoke in PvP for some reason." You could take Featherfoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Let's rate their utility by their power and how often they can be used.
WAR: 10% damage down(No cd), AoE 25% Heal/Max HP increase(150s cd), AoE Stun/Knockback(150s cd), and a 6s unesunable root(180s cd). (basic mantra lol)
Storm's Path can have a 100% uptime on a target, it's awesome. Thrill of War is great for clutch healing and possibly saving someone [from an LB]. Mythral Tempest is great for peeling, getting a 2nd stun on the healer during burst, or for its raw damage. Holmgang is just cancer, on the receiving end of course lol. Much like Carnal Chill (or so you say) it gets Purified often because of how cancer it is.
DRK: 10% damage down (30s cd,unreliable), 10% INT down (No cd), Blind (30s cd), AoE Heavy (90s cd), Carnal Chill (60s cd), and +10% damage taken (120s cd)
Like you mentioned before the chances of getting Reprisal out is fairly hard less you're getting focused (situational) . The INT down as well is also very situational. Now the Blind, Blind is one of the more powerful debuffs in PvP. Being able to make people miss (often) is powerful, loss of combo/mitigate burst/maintaining buffs. It does not just lower the damage of attacks, it makes them "0". Dark Passenger can miss, this is true, although you can predict the movement tank/melee when they are focusing a target to make it land significantly more often. Tar Pit great for damage, peeling, or self healing. Multi-use like Mythral Temptest and Tempered Will. Carnal Chill can effectively destroy burst if used correctly, It requires skill/awareness which I don't see why that is a problem. Also, if its getting Purified and can be used as often as it can, it has even greater utility than I thought. Sole Survivor 15s ranged TA, curious to see how effective it'll be, we'll see.
Overall, DRK utility is above that of a Warrior especially after 3.3 and can be used way more often than that of a Warrior. If Warrior still had healing down then maybe it'd be equal.
DRK has amazing utility you are just refusing to see past your own limits, capability, and overbearing biased against Dark Knight.
"If anything, Dark Knight sits between Paladin and Warrior in terms of mitigation and damage, though a fat lot of good that does in PvP..." How is that not good?
"Nor the potential difficulty Dark Knight can have with Grit..." I feel like this problem isn't universal...
At this point I feel like you are willingly refusing to see DRK's purpose. -
06-05-2016, 03:45 AMDrkdays
1. Kek? Really? Go back to wow.
2. I can understand the issue with mana. After all darkside drains mana while in use and since PvP enemies just totally refuse to hold still and mana doesn't regenerate (for any significant amount) while in combat it makes things just plain harder for drk after that one burst. -
06-05-2016, 04:01 AMExira1. Relevant commentQuote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
2. What? Darkside barely consumes MP in PvP and having issues hitting moving players is a matter of skill, not a DRK issue, especially since they have a Gap Closer. Also, mana does regenerate in combat , even for DRK (greater than Darkside [PvP] consumption). -
06-05-2016, 04:56 AMUltimatecaliburBetter visibility maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan