Superficial

Before I begin, I just want to say that I think that most of the concepts for Version 2.0 look good. But that's the problem. It only looks good.

When you think about it, 90% of the gameplay is the combat system and the crafting system. The quests and the environments (i.e. the other 10%) merely provide the substrate for that experience. In terms of fractions, most of the game will still be the "same old same old" . . . won't it?

Won't we just be doing the same stuff as always, but with a different backdrop (and the ability to jump up and down)?

I guess my point is, the concepts all look like improvements (cartooniness notwithstanding), but is it really enough? The combat system and crafting systems have a long way to go before they can really be deemed engaging.

I submit to you that the combat systems and crafting systems are not yet enthralling enough to guarantee this game's success, and quite frankly, masking it with some pretty pictures and new zones may not be the best way to go.

The game's foundations are what needs most work, right? And yet the only things that seem to be getting extensive work are the superficial aspects of the game.

I disagree. Except the the lagginess and bugginess (which is being addressed in 2.0), I think the combat in FFXIV is some of the most engaging in any MMO I've played. Not to mention that changes to class/job abilities, etc., are ongoing.

My friend Lysias summed up crafting pretty well. "It's a grind, but when you complete an item, it really feels like you've put your sweat and blood into making it." I, too, enjoy this experience.

http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/dow...Content_EN.pdf

hmmm
actually..no. The battle sistem is getting revamped. it started in 1.18, continued in 1.19, will continue again in 1.20 with class balancing,will continue again with jobs in 1.21 and maybe more in the patchs after that.The game isn't freezing until 2.0, you know ?

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/dow...Content_EN.pdf

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What's your point?

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

What's your point?

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That they've said they're going to do what you said they should do. Just some suggested reading.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/dow...Content_EN.pdf

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What's your point?

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Read link.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

And yet the only things that seem to be getting extensive work are the superficial aspects of the game.

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Then read your quote again.

Point is. You're wrong.

Edit: misread

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Originally Posted by Luxley

Troll thread. /sigh

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Yar. No surprise there.

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Originally Posted by Luxley

Troll thread. /sigh

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It only took post #8 to figure this out? I've lost all faith in humanity. Time to go take a nap.

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Originally Posted by Liminality

It only took post #8 to figure this out? I've lost all faith in humanity. Time to go take a nap.

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#7 actually. /em points to sig.

inb4lock

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Originally Posted by Liminality

It only took post #8 to figure this out? I've lost all faith in humanity. Time to go take a nap.

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My clue was the title and first sentence. None of the changes are superficial unless you consider server hardware and engine software superficial.

Maybe if you're pessimistic enough you can say it's superfluous..but not superficial.

Wow very bad thread... My thread was closed because people were going off topic this one should be burnt.....

Troll thread from a troll... Surprised?


From what I have seen, only trolls hide behind level 1 characters on the forums. 1.20 can't come soon enough.

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Originally Posted by DNO

Wow very bad thread... My thread was closed because people were going off topic this one should be burnt.....

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There's nothing wrong with the thread, just some find the subject matter a bit trollish in their eyes because it's saying the upcoming changes are just visual appeal in essence, when in reality they're reworking it to the core.

Another ellohwell thread that I disagree with.

Isn't this fun?!

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

My clue was the title and first sentence. None of the changes are superficial unless you consider server hardware and engine software superficial.

Maybe if you're pessimistic enough you can say it's superfluous..but not superficial.

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I didn't have to read anything past the OP's name. I rolled my eyes, read the first sentence, and they actually did a 360 inside my sockets.

I know this is a troll thread... but I am away from game at the moment so here goes...
Even if 90% of the game is combat and crafting (Which I don't really buy. That may be the case for you but many people play games just for different reasons. i.e. Story, exploring new environments, social aspects, in game fashion)
But even if 90% of the game is as you say... Then that would explain why the 2 biggest overhauls are the server and the graphics engine. 2 things that have an enormous impact on battle, crafting, etc....
If you think they don't, go fight Ifrit
the thing is... one can't be done without the other...
Battle overhaul requires that stats (including stats on gear, hence the gear overhaul), abilities, algorithms and food all get redone. Also server lag can destroy the battle experience. On top of that a battle system lives and dies by it's UI, which is a 3rd thing on the list of the big 5 adjustments for 2.0.
The graphics Engine clearly factors into battle.
And the zone redesign is being seen as a progression of the story....
Now.. Battle is important.... But what is also important is the story, for it is that story that defines what you fight and why you fight it. Once again tying into the battle system
I would go as far as saying no elements are more core to an MMORPG than the server API, UI and graphics engine.
They are perhaps the least superficial things a game can have....
That's like saying molecules or DNA is superficial in the make up of a living thing
That's like saying words are superficial in the writing of a book

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

My clue was the title and first sentence. None of the changes are superficial unless you consider server hardware and engine software superficial.

Maybe if you're pessimistic enough you can say it's superfluous..but not superficial.

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The main points I raised were combat and crafting, since that's most of your activity in game. Server improvements will aid in both systems, sure, and perhaps in that case it isn't superficial, and if you wanted to argue semantics, be my guest. You can damn well feel free.

But all anyone in this thread has said, and provided links for, are superficial adjustments to both crafting and combat. Sorry. But I don't see any of your points.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I know this is a troll thread... but I am away from game at the moment so here goes...
Even if 90% of the game is combat and crafting (Which I don't really buy. That may be the case for you but many people play games just for different reasons. i.e. Story, exploring new environments, social aspects, in game fashion)
But even if 90% of the game is as you say... Then that would explain why the 2 biggest overhauls are the server and the graphics engine. 2 things that have an enormous impact on battle, crafting, etc....
If you think they don't, go fight Ifrit
the thing is... one can't be done without the other...
Battle overhaul requires that stats (including stats on gear, hence the gear overhaul), abilities, algorithms and food all get redone. Also server lag can destroy the battle experience. On top of that a battle system lives and dies by it's UI, which is a 3rd thing on the list of the big 5 adjustments for 2.0.
The graphics Engine clearly factors into battle.
And the zone redesign is being seen as a progression of the story....
Now.. Battle is important.... But what is also important is the story, for it is that story that defines what you fight and why you fight it. Once again tying into the battle system
I would go as far as saying no elements are more core to an MMORPG than the server API, UI and graphics engine.
They are perhaps the least superficial things a game can have....
That's like saying molecules or DNA is superficial in the make up of a living thing
That's like saying words are superficial in the writing of a book

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Okay, please work on your presentation. I think you have some good objections, but your delivery needs work and is an eyesore. No offence.

Anyways, some bad analogies you made at the end aside, i'll just focus on how you say that stats and food and graphics and story are all really important. I disagree with this conjecture. And the reason for this is because: sure, to the game, yes, these factors are important. But overhauling these aspects won't solve all the issues with combat and crafting, it won't even solve most of them.

I think at heart, the crafting progression system needs a complete overhaul and much less emphasis on RNG.

Presently, the combat system is going back to everquest principles (which historically only arose out of technical limitations), and there is much that needs to be done to cater to contemporary market and overcome the stigma of being a boring game.

I guess it's hard to see my point if you are set in your ways and want to believe in false hype. But whatever. Suit yourselves i guess.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

I guess it's hard to see my point if you are set in your ways and want to believe in false hype. But whatever. Suit yourselves i guess.

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I guess it's hard for you to see the points of others if you are set in your ways and want to believe the game is falling apart. But whatever. Suit yourself I guess.

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Originally Posted by Aistaraina

I guess it's hard for you to see the points of others if you are set in your ways and want to believe the game is falling apart. But whatever. Suit yourself I guess.

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What "points of others"? That they are adjusting stats and food? And that crafting recipes are being tweaked?

That's not an objection. That is corroboration of my argument.

BelgianRofl is that you?

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Originally Posted by Fieros

BelgianRofl is that you?

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is that all you people can ever say...

I don't know? I just came back after 7 month break and you reminded me of someone.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

is that all you people can ever say...

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When it comes to everything you post? Pretty much. I'm honestly a bit surprised you expect anyone to really take you seriously anymore.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

The main points I raised were combat and crafting, since that's most of your activity in game. Server improvements will aid in both systems, sure, and perhaps in that case it isn't superficial, and if you wanted to argue semantics, be my guest. You can damn well feel free.

But all anyone in this thread has said, and provided links for, are superficial adjustments to both crafting and combat. Sorry. But I don't see any of your points.

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It's not really semantics though -- superficial would generally mean adjustments on the outside or what you see never getting to the root of the problem which has far been the case of the recent and upcoming updates, for example one of the sentences used in the official definition:

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These superficial changes don't address the underlying problem.

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The underlying cause of a lot of XIV's problems lie within the server infrastructure, engine utilization and serverside interface, all of which they said will be changing by and for 2.0. A lot of updates from now until 2.0's are more than superficial changes, they're core changes. A new engine alone is more than trying to slap a new coat of paint over something.

Fine, I'll take the bait.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

I think at heart, the crafting progression system needs a complete overhaul and much less emphasis on RNG.

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Only part I agree with.

Combat in XIV is not fundamentally broken. Some things (enmity algorithm, effects of elements, class balance) could use adjustments - and they're getting them, but it's not fundamentally worse than other things on the market. It's fundamentally the same system that's been in every MMORPG since Everquest. Yes, games like Guild Wars 2 and Vindictus are breaking that mold since technology allows them, but that doesn't mean the old system is outdated and should be done away with entirely.

Maybe it's just because I play a healer, but I actually find combat an extremely interactive, nonrandom, strategic experience. The UI needs a significant rework, but hey, it's getting that too!

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

It's not really semantics though -- superficial would generally mean adjustments on the outside or what you see never getting to the root of the problem which has far been the case of the recent and upcoming updates, for example one of the sentences used in the official definition:

The underlying cause of a lot of XIV's problems lie within the server infrastructure, engine utilization and serverside interface, all of which they said will be changing by and for 2.0. A lot of updates from now until 2.0's are more than superficial changes, they're core changes. A new engine alone is more than trying to slap a new coat of paint over something.

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I agree to an extent, but my point is that all these fundamental improvements will mean little to nothing at all if they aren't utilised in terms of combat and crafting mechanics. Improvements to both server and client infrastructure gives the game more potential, but I fail to see where they are meeting this potential.

The server improvements will alleviate lag (which will affect combat indirectly but will hardly make it a winning feature). Lag will make the interface between play and game much less frustrating.

But all of this is a given.

the crafting system and the combat system do just fine, but none of it's great. It's just blah.

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Originally Posted by Misteyes

Fine, I'll take the bait.

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I'm not baiting anyone. Why is everyone so paranoid, omg.

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Only part I agree with.

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Well its better than nothing I guess.

Most people on these forums try to tell me that crafting progression is perfect the way it is and could not be RNG-based enough!

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Combat in XIV is not fundamentally broken. Some things (enmity algorithm, effects of elements, class balance) could use adjustments - and they're getting them, but it's not fundamentally worse than other things on the market. It's fundamentally the same system that's been in every MMORPG since Everquest. Yes, games like Guild Wars 2 and Vindictus are breaking that mold since technology allows them, but that doesn't mean the old system is outdated and should be done away with entirely.

Maybe it's just because I play a healer, but I actually find combat an extremely interactive, nonrandom, strategic experience. The UI needs a significant rework, but hey, it's getting that too!

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So are you saying superficial improvements are enough?

I guess that's what most of you are trying to say even though you guys articulate it in a really roundabout way (and try to hide from your true sentiments).

Maybe there is a point to be made that all games dont have to be like Guild Wars 2 or Blade and Soul, but FFXIV still has nothing to really offer. I feel like it's way too mathematical.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Maybe there is a point to be made that all games dont have to be like Guild Wars 2 or Blade and Soul, but FFXIV still has nothing to really offer. I feel like it's way too mathematical.

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Then, PLEASE, by all means, LEAVE, and stop bitching about everything.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

I agree to an extent, but my point is that all these fundamental improvements will mean little to nothing at all if they aren't utilised in terms of combat and crafting mechanics. Improvements to both server and client infrastructure gives the game more potential, but I fail to see where they are meeting this potential.

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It's not easy to see till the time comes and see if they do or do not realize the potential, usually core changes and even engine changes are good for games, hell the '.5' update to Unreal 2 changed everything for games that upgraded to it (nevermind the jump to 3 and 4) so it's just something that has to come to really find out.

I want to know what your definition of superficial is. The one I'm operating on is something that affects the look of something without affecting its function or effectiveness.

If I put on a green shirt instead of a gray shirt, that's superficial. If I put on a raincoat instead of a t-shirt, that's not.

I disagree that UI is superficial. If it is, then there's only a superficial difference between Microsoft Word and a remote typewriter where you don't even get to see the page without walking into another room.

I also disagree that the enmity algorithm - which affects strategy by determining what actions are acceptable and what actions are mistakes - is superficial.

I also disagree that class balance is superficial. Bad class balance is a real mood-killer for people who want to play a particular class.

Perhaps you can expand on why it "feels way too mathematical"?

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Troll thread from a troll... Surprised?


From what I have seen, only trolls hide behind level 1 characters on the forums. 1.20 can't come soon enough.

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I had my regular character shown on here, 'til a couple people decided to jump in-game and troll me in there.

Yes, I was actually trolled in-game by a couple people from message forums. I don't know if was from here or from other forums. Apparently some people really can't handle a differing opinion. Or, it was folks whose BS I'd called out (there's so much of it) and they couldn't "get back at me" in the forums without their post being deleted or the account being suspended.

So, in order to play in peace, I removed my character ID from all forums... at least for now. Once they activate subs and those who remain only to troll no longer have access to the game, I'm sure it'll be fine again.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Okay, please work on your presentation. I think you have some good objections, but your delivery needs work and is an eyesore. No offence.

Anyways, some bad analogies you made at the end aside, i'll just focus on how you say that stats and food and graphics and story are all really important. I disagree with this conjecture. And the reason for this is because: sure, to the game, yes, these factors are important. But overhauling these aspects won't solve all the issues with combat and crafting, it won't even solve most of them.

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Okay, please don't use words unless you know how to use them properly. No offense.

Nothing in his post is an example of conjecture.

However, ironically enough, much of your OP does qualify as conjecture.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

I guess it's hard to see my point if you are set in your ways and want to believe in false hype. But whatever. Suit yourselves i guess.

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... says the person has repeatedly demonstrated zero tolerance for any opinion that doesn't resemble their own and has responded with unwarranted hostility and condescension numerous times, in many posts, across many threads.

Quaint.

Personally I...

el oh el @ ellohwell

G[SIZE="5"]E[/SIZE][SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE] [SIZE="7"]I[/SIZE][SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE][SIZE="5"]?[/SIZE]!

These are not superficial fixes if they were they would be almost done. A revamp as deep as this one is a huge endeavor and the changes and additions proposed may seem like small things but they really are not. When you are changing how things work and how players interact with the game you are changing FUNDAMENTALS.

If you really think this game isn't getting a complete facelift with a makeover and a wardrobe upgrade on top of that, I don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Okay, please work on your presentation. I think you have some good objections, but your delivery needs work and is an eyesore. No offence.

Anyways, some bad analogies you made at the end aside, i'll just focus on how you say that stats and food and graphics and story are all really important. I disagree with this conjecture. And the reason for this is because: sure, to the game, yes, these factors are important. But overhauling these aspects won't solve all the issues with combat and crafting, it won't even solve most of them.

I think at heart, the crafting progression system needs a complete overhaul and much less emphasis on RNG.

Presently, the combat system is going back to everquest principles (which historically only arose out of technical limitations), and there is much that needs to be done to cater to contemporary market and overcome the stigma of being a boring game.

I guess it's hard to see my point if you are set in your ways and want to believe in false hype. But whatever. Suit yourselves i guess.

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You're right... they should not fix the server lag, revamp the limited graphics engine... make the environments aesthetically pleasing... They should only redo the battle system

In a way you really are right though.. a battle system really is the major defining aspect of a game...
Lag can be fixed, graphics can be improved.... But it's not a matter of better or worse
Its a very subjective area
So if you're not happy with the direction of the battle... Then this probably isn't the game for you
And I don't mean that to be rude... I hate when someone has a critique of the game and everyone jumps on them saying "Just quit"
But if you are truly this unhappy with the direction... then maybe thats the best thing for you

Either way, I am comforted by the fact that you wont be able to post here come December

I think the reason there's nothing more specific in the 2.0 docs about the battle system is that that's their focus of 1.20 through 1.23, aside from adding one-time-only content. By the time 2.0 is gearing up to release I think they intend to have already revamped their battle system.

Twelve only know what they're going to do with crafting, but I'm not holding my breath.

There's some truth in the OP - most notably, there is ZERO mention of any sort of crafting revamp. Yes, they are making changes, but they're minor adjustments at best.

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Basis of new recipes released in patch 1.19. New additions to continue to be made prior to version 2.0.
New high-end recipes to have high levels of difficulty, not only in terms of recipe complexity, but also
crafting location requirements (e.g., facilities within a kobold stronghold).
Materia released in patch 1.19, with future plans including release of additional materia slot items, materia
to mitigate requirements to equip gear, further system expansions, and additional items.
Release of an item notebook after version 2.0 to log all recipes and crafted items for consolidated, easy
viewing.
Release of a "signature" feature for version 2.0 enabling players to put their names on items they craft.

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All of those are essentially fixes towards what you CAN do with the crafting system. But there is nothing there about HOW you do it. The crafting system in its current state is a massive grindfest that's downright painful. It's nice that they've tried to make the process more engaging, but it's a moot point if the system isn't fun.