Feedback: (Melee) Limit Break

Hey everyone, my name is King Stefan from Balmung, Aether DC and I want to make a series of threads that cover the entire scope of my feedback for The Feast: Season 1. I'm going to be dividing my threads up by their topics, to give more concise and organized feedback so hopefully it can hit back to SE. My slight background: I have 800 matches played in The Feast and recently hit Gold today in Solo Queue. I main WHM and AST, so my point of view will be coming from that of a healer, though I feel like I have a good general understanding on the game and how it is, and perhaps should, be played. Now that introductions are out of the way...

I do not like or agree with the changes made to Limit Break (Adrenaline) in patch 3.26. The rate at which LB grows is way too high, and even those that never touch the box (Tanks, healers, ranged) can LB twice per match. That's too much. It is also very common for those with middle box control to limit break FOUR times per match (melee)! Now, let me say that IF LB HAS TO STAY IN THE GAME, ABSOLUTELY, IF IT MUST, that...

Tank, Healer, and Ranged LB's are all well tuned and balanced. They feel they have an impact without really deciding the game any more or less than other abilities.

HOWEVER...

Melee LB is WAY TOO STRONG. Only very skill healers (with multiple fending accessories) can live through a Melee LB at full life, and that is only if they do not have ANY stacks of heavy medal. It is absurd that this literal "One shot kill" ability that is very difficult to interrupt can be used FOUR TIMES A MATCH! This is on top of DPS burst CDs, and honestly there is just no way for a healer to be able to keep up.

Knowing that no matter how well you play, you are going to die, is not fun or engaging gameplay, and has absolutely no place in a competitive game format.

This change has also created the opposite effect as was intended. In a recent post, Yoshi P said this change was to make the game flow better, and end quicker. It has done just the opposite. What it has created is a game of near skill-less "hot-potato" like gameplay where the teams are just melee LBing back and forth, and you hope that yours is the team that melee's someone with stacks in the last seconds of the match to take home a win.

As for how I would change it, it comes down to this. Adrenaline needs to not only be reduced to its original growth rate, but Melee LB in particular needs to REALLY be reconsidered. My personal suggestion would be to give it a longer cast time, so that it is easier to interrupt. While it has been suggested to me and others that the damage should be reduced, I think that would make the ability pretty bad, and ultimately not worth it. However, in addition to this casting change: DAMAGE AMPLIFICATION CAUSED BY HEAVY MEDAL SHOULD NOT BE CALCULATED INTO LIMIT BREAK DAMAGE. It is one of the main causes of this "un-fun" and "un-skilled" gameplay. The fact that you can literally one-shot ANY class with 1 stack (non-tank) and any tank 5 stacks or higher is insane.

Thank you for reading, and please let me know what you think of my feedback, or if you agree, in this thread. I'd like for it to be an open discussion about Adrenaline(Limit Break) as it is currently in the Feast patch 3.26.

IIRC, anything that increases damage taken and reduces damage taken affects LB (which is normally dealt as "true damage" for lack of a better explanation, which is why it goes through garuda's stoneskin and isn't affected by magic/physical (de)buffs, while ravana takes extra/less during scorpion/beetle stance respectively)

From a developmental standpoint, I'd imagine it'd be easier to revert the LB gains in combat, since heavy medal's debuff is considered the above. I'd rather them make it less frequent than lower it's effectiveness. Like any LB in general, it's supposed to be a game changer or a reversal of sorts, of course this won't be the cast if it happens 4 times in the course of a single fight.

I mean the fact that you can nearly one shot people with a no-skill-required button that is just given to you for standing around long enough blows my mind. Where is the skill in having something like this in arena style pvp. It's gimmicky and it's cheesy. Wolve's Den didn't have lbs unless a game went on for far longer than it ever should have and it was a much better mode because of it

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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To say something is "easier" for the devs to just not change it is a cop-out and does not belong in a competitive game format. If SE truly belives Limit Break spamming to be the height of skilled competition, then so be it. But to say "oh well its coded this way so it'd be too hard" Is just bad. If other games like CS:GO and LoL had that mentality, they'd be dead games.

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Originally Posted by Renault

To say something is "easier" for the devs to just not change it is a cop-out and does not belong in a competitive game format. If SE truly belives Limit Break spamming to be the height of skilled competition, then so be it. But to say "oh well its coded this way so it'd be too hard" Is just bad. If other games like CS:GO and LoL had that mentality, they'd be dead games.

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That's why I said the easiest course would be to undo the changes to LB, so it doesn't generate as fast. Reversals or skills that change the flow of the game shouldn't be so frequent, but you don't want to nerf soemthing like LB that it can't make those reversals in the first place. Even if you changed it so it specifically does not increase damage taken from LB, it's still a death sentence if they're under focus fire (on top of taking away from killing tanks more reliably, which was part of the reason why we even have something like stacking heavy medal).

I'll patiently wait for the day they do something to change adrenaline/melee LB. Until then I wont hold my breath.

But at the same time I don't see myself spending a lot more time on The Feast. It was a lot of fun when it first came out, now they've clipped the wings and its just 8 minutes of stress as a healer.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's why I said the easiest course would be to undo the changes to LB, so it doesn't generate as fast. Reversals or skills that change the flow of the game shouldn't be so frequent, but you don't want to nerf soemthing like LB that it can't make those reversals in the first place. Even if you changed it so it specifically does not increase damage taken from LB, it's still a death sentence if they're under focus fire (on top of taking away from killing tanks more reliably, which was part of the reason why we even have something like stacking heavy medal).

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I don't think reversals should be decided by an orange "I win" button, they should be decided by outplaying your opponents. Imagine is Nascar had the blue shells and bullet bills from Mario Kart? Nobody would really care about it, because you didn't really win the game due to you being better. You won the game because you press an "I win" button with a few seconds left on the clock.

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Originally Posted by Renault

I don't think reversals should be decided by an orange "I win" button, they should be decided by outplaying your opponents. Imagine is Nascar had the blue shells and bullet bills from Mario Kart? Nobody would really care about it, because you didn't really win the game due to you being better. You won the game because you press an "I win" button with a few seconds left on the clock.

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Neither do I. It should happen because of poor play being capitalized (having high medal stacks) or good, coordinated play (sycned burst), and counterplayed as such (having prompt reaction time with mitigation or shields). It was previously far from an i-win because any competent team would have proper precautions before the first LB even charges (and its typically the only melee LB a team will have unless they have complete control over center, and at that point it's a uphill fight). When you increase the frequency of it, you have less opportunities to prepare against it.

Truthfully, if heavy medal didn't affect LB damage, you're opting out one of the huge risks of heavy medal in the first place. An LB should be a kill on you if you aren't ready for it, but something like that shouldn't be available as frequently as it is now. It should be something that lands a decisive hit, not something that turns the game into hot-potato as you mentioned.

The most frustrating thing about the melee limit break is that there is little you can do to counter it. There is no room for a player to improve to counter it.

At least if I die because of a mistake I made, I can learn from it and become s better player.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

The most frustrating thing about the melee limit break is that there is little you can do to counter it. There is no room for a player to improve to counter it.

At least if I die because of a mistake I made, I can learn from it and become s better player.

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YES and they can just fetterward for it and there instantly becomes no counterplay to it. It's baaaaaad

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

The most frustrating thing about the melee limit break is that there is little you can do to counter it. There is no room for a player to improve to counter it.

At least if I die because of a mistake I made, I can learn from it and become s better player.

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Which is why I suggest a casting time increase. This allows more time to interrupt it with stuns and knockbacks...

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Originally Posted by Exira

YES and they can just fetterward for it and there instantly becomes no counterplay to it. It's baaaaaad

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But oooohhh waiiiiit, that wouldnt workkkk, would iiiittttt. Oh noooooooooooo. ( Yeah, Melee can just Fetter Ward when they LB so it cannot be interrupted )

Yeah, as Exiras said. It's just kinda BS in its current state.

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Originally Posted by Renault

Yeah, Melee can just Fetter Ward when they LB so it cannot be interrupted )

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Knockback still cancels lb, regardless of whether fetter ward is up or not, but yeah its lame. Limit breaks in general should not exist period in a competitive format.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Knockback still cancels lb, regardless of whether fetter ward is up or not, but yeah its lame. Limit breaks in general should not exist period in a competitive format.

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How so? it explicitly states it blocks knockback

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Originally Posted by Exira

How so? it explicitly states it blocks knockback

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Wow it looks like they change this? It used to only block fluid aura since that also boundbefore and I recall it explicitly omitted saying it blocks knockback and draw in.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Wow it looks like they change this? It used to only block fluid aura since that also boundbefore and I recall it explicitly omitted saying it blocks knockback and draw in.

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Yea I'm not sure if it was changed or not but I know Straigus was talking about it blocking it so I'd assume the skill description is correct

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Originally Posted by Exira

Yea I'm not sure if it was changed or not but I know Straigus was talking about it blocking it so I'd assume the skill description is correct

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If it says it, and it does i just checked, then its right. I swear they changed the description though it did not include knockback nor draw in. I distinctly recall this as months ago I had asked on here if it did specifically because the knockback was omitted in its description.

Edit: If you look it up on old FFXIV wikis that dont update their info frequently you can see the old fetter ward description used to be "Grants immunity to stun, sleep, bind, heavy, and disease for 9 seconds." Source http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dragoon

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

If it says it, and it does i just checked, then its right. I swear they changed the description though it did not include knockback nor draw in. I distinctly recall this as months ago I had asked on here if it did specifically because the knockback was omitted in its description.

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Well glad we cleared it up ^^ yea they do change skills and put in the notes but sometimes they fly under the radar in lull times

as much as i really do agree that it shouldnt just one hit a person at all. there are ways to counter it.

Attunement, Sacred Prism, Cover, Tank LB, Stun, tank immunitys, swift cast shields, Manawall, testudo, carnal chill, thrill of war. as well as any effect with sleep knock back stun etc if fetterward isnt up. which can be used to somewhat stop it. but again, its very limited situation use. some classes like summoner literally have nothing to defend against lb.

As a healer, ive noticed without 2 tank accessorys i WILL die in one shot it if dont have one of the above options available to me. being as lb is nearly all ways paired with stun and fetterward it falls into the realm of team work. which single cue doesnt exactly help with. id like to see it do about 7000 capped damage. 75% damage on target. a flat out kill is just silly.

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Originally Posted by neoxdeciple

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Attunement has to be used before the cast bar for "Raw Destruction" even appears, or it will not register in time. No melee in their right mind would use an LB when you're standing in sacred prism. Things like Testudo, tank LB, etc. will often not register before the attack goes off, resulting in a failure to reduce the damage taken.

I play healer and run 2 fending also, and can say a melee LB at full hp (on WHM) will put me down to about 200-300 hp. This is recoverable...IF NOBODY IS ATTACKING ME AFTERWARDS. I live through melee LB 95% of the time I get hit by it if I've got no heavy medal stacks, it is the damage afterwards that kills me, because I have no answer for the following burst when I just had to pop one, if not several healing CDs just to recover from it.

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Originally Posted by Renault

Attunement has to be used before the cast bar for "Raw Destruction" even appears, or it will not register in time. No melee in their right mind would use an LB when you're standing in sacred prism. Things like Testudo, tank LB, etc. will often not register before the attack goes off, resulting in a failure to reduce the damage taken.
I play healer and run 2 fending also, and can say a melee LB at full hp (on WHM) will put me down to about 200-300 hp. This is recoverable...IF NOBODY IS ATTACKING ME AFTERWARDS. I live through melee LB 95% of the time I get hit by it if I've got no heavy medal stacks, it is the damage afterwards that kills me, because I have no answer for the following burst when I just had to pop one, if not several healing CDs just to recover from it.

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what i'm saying is with the right timing those things can save you but as you pointed out they literally have to activate at the exact time a lb is activated. and as you pointed out your buggered if someone else hits you. also you burn cool downs just to recover. i thought the point of the changes to HP interruption was that people didnt have to take tank accessory but its still very much mandatory for healers to do so regardless of the change. hell I still see almost all blk mages and summoners taking at least 1 tank accessory.

seems the process wasn't thought out very well. in all honesty id even be happy if they made it a longer cast time to match Ranged lb. just doesnt seem right that one is easy to interupt while to other is near impossible if the player knows what they are doing.

if im playing devils advocate saying that, it doesn't make the game uneven. both teams have someone capable of melee Lb. its basically just a case of it being extremely unfair on the person getting hit by one.

These LB are getting out of hand. The more familiar people become with the system the worser it gets. I see more and more matches desided by the melee of the opposite team and it just isnt fun anymore getting limitbreaked a few times a match/ at the end of one.

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Originally Posted by neoxdeciple

what i'm saying is with the right timing those things can save you

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The right timing? You mean about ~1 second timing?

Yeah I helped win s game today with one, but yeah I agree they can be frustrating.

Why not remove it completely

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Originally Posted by Dumbledoremd

Why not remove it completely

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Honestly I'm getting to this point. I don't believe it brings any value to the game mode. It doesn't make the combat deeper or more skillful at all

I think if its starting to do more harm then good they need to at least look at removing it from the feast let skill decide matches

It's garbage, ruined the game mode pretty much. the whole mode is just a wreck nowadays. I'm sick of wailing on one guy with 2 other people trying to outburst the heal spam. And then I'm sick of healers free casting and keeping 2 targets alive without any effort because they can free cast 99.9 percent of the game. And LB situation is a mess as well. vanilla feast, best feast.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

It's garbage, ruined the game mode pretty much. the whole mode is just a wreck nowadays. I'm sick of wailing on one guy with 2 other people trying to outburst the heal spam. And then I'm sick of healers free casting and keeping 2 targets alive without any effort because they can free cast 99.9 percent of the game. And LB situation is a mess as well. vanilla feast, best feast.

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I actually agree with this. They'd still have to do something for cast interrupts though, because being a sch or blm on day 1 of feast was legit free medals for any melee.

Back on OP for a second, I think SE tried to make limit breaks work kind of like an offensive counter to the fact that tanks can become literally invincible and healers can make pretty much anyone virtually invincible for the duration of a burst window.
The comparison that comes to mind is TF2's kritzkrieg versus ubercharge, where you'd use the kritz early and often to pressure the uber and try to kill the uber medic before he gets a chance to go invul and annihilate everyone; it adds a different cadence to the game because it's not a straight race to the uber, there's a real threat of someone just diving in out of nowhere and erasing your combo with a kritz before you're ready for them.
That said, where comp players love the kritz because it's predictable and its uses are very specific in comp play (namely the situation of trying to get a medic pick early on so the other team is at an uber disadvantage the rest of the game), nobody who played comp TF2 liked random crits. Random crits are the equivalent of the current configuration for limit breaks, where they just kinda... happen, and you get instantly blasted by someone who (hopefully) earned it, but you secretly know in your heart that they just lucked into instantly killing you. It doesn't pass the "would this be fun if it happened to me?" test, which describes a lot of stuff in XIV's current PVP system.

SE, please revise limit breaks so they feel hard-earned and dying to one is more like "hey man ns" and less "lucked again".

The melee LB is awful. It's contributing to the biggest issue feast has in that it doesn't feel like PvP. One of the big lures of PvP is that the fact you're playing against other human beings brings unpredictability. People could have different strategies and play styles which leads to fun randomised battles. At the moment Feast may as well be PvE. No matches end before the 8 minute timer and every match ends the same way with a melee limit break on the team that spent most of the fight winning. It's just not fun to play anymore.

Having both Heavy Medals co exist just doesn't promote winning equal fights/skirmishes instead it encourages cheese, at least in close games. It is pointless being the better team where it matters (all cds up, no resistances, def+att buff equal in play) when you can get f****d hard by lb/stacks later on. More so lb than stacks really. I believe there is counter play to early LB's (around the 4 or 5 minute mark) and i often save my healers with tank cds/lb in solo queue etc but in the last few minutes if you have been stacked up a while you just will have used a few cd's to survive. Of all our losses in ranked party, all have been started with an lb on the healer or me and ended up in a lose after we won the first few early game fights securing a few kills.

So many matches seem to end the same way. End of game approaching, lead by my team, but wait... Here comes the enemy melee sprinting in with the I WIN button.