Back in the good old days casters were interrupted from every hit, bards and machinists couldn't do max damage unless they stayed at a magical range, and melee dps couldn't get positional bonuses without being...well..in position. This was balanced well.
Let's look at it today:
SE added a 15% health threshold for casters, essentially allowing them to freecast.
SE essentially removed the ranged penalty from BRD/MCH, allowing them to do max damage at all times.
SE removed positional requirements for melee DPS, allowing them to also do maximum DPS...Oh, wait, no they didn't.
How about you make it so that positionals are effective in PvP as long as you aren't hitting the target from the front? You lightened all other class' penalties so far, but ignored melee. Our turn.
Melee Positional Requirements
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03-31-2016, 10:51 PMKoltikMelee Positional Requirements
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03-31-2016, 10:58 PMLordHadiLol, I felt like an idiot reading this until I read the last part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
Thought I was missing something because I always ignore "Fang and Claw" and "Wheeling Thrust" playing DRG in PvP. I can't agree more with you, something should be done about it. You can't get the position right using focus + opponent moving nonstop. -
03-31-2016, 11:08 PMJubez187
Yupp, they made it so you need to use the cheesy stuff to get kills (adrenaline spam, late game nightmares) or everyone has to be attacking same target at all times. Melee/tank DPS is seriously gimped right now. You lose positional potencies AND auto attacks.
The original Feast was the best. I'll say it every post. -
03-31-2016, 11:28 PMxxczx
why can't we make a macro to do my rotation???
can anyone help?? i want to afk
edit: am monk -
04-01-2016, 12:08 AMDimitrii
They already buffed Monk and NIN for absolutely no reason last patch lol. Like honestly that monk buff was not needed at all. Can I get a 60 second recast buff on my impulse rush as dragoon since we handing out free buffs anyway?
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04-01-2016, 12:56 AMShurrikhanI'm honestly pretty happy with those changes, apart from Somersault having zero need for a potency increase, and Far Shot's fix being as unimaginative as ever. I thought Somersault's direct damage would be nerfed to make up for the reduced cooldown. I also can't imagine the potency bonus on Tar Pit being worth much of anything. I'd much rather have seen it leave an actual heavying Tar Pit in addition to the original, duration-ed AoE status debuff hit. Cut the potency and make it a 50/100% absorb, if needed. Make Carnal Chill start at 20% (III->30%), but deal half effect to additional AoE hits. Expand radius to 7y. Now you've got some real DRK utility. ...Maybe too much, actually...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
The only real low blow the patches have seemed to deal so far was the change of 15% HP necessary to interrupt. I'd be fine with that if only it didn't mean that quick-hitting classes, scoring say 12% HP every second, couldn't interrupt a thing. There needs to at least be some sort of roll-over, so that our AAs and unpeaked damage doesn't go utterly to waste. That said, the Summoner nerf was a bit overkill. Especially for so long as they can be hard-countered by Monk (even easier now with Somersault's buff).
On topic, though, I'm fine with melee positional requirements. I deal enough damage despite them, and a fair bit more once an enemy gets lazy and stops spinning and jumping around like a glitchy hare. Or at least I did when I could actually AA one caster, weaponskill another, and oGCD a third within range to keep myself or their target alive through interruption. Even with any changes to interruption, I'd probably be doing only a third of that tops, likely with a much reduced skill ceiling/payoff. -
04-01-2016, 01:11 AMCynric
I suppose this would be alright though I feel even without our positional bonuses we're still pretty strong, though it goes without saying that if they were to do this then they should also change the effect of Impulse Rush as well.
Considering most burst comes from the OGCD department where Positional requirements don't really exist except in a couple of cases (sorry Ninja) it would probably be a very potent buff for Dragoon and Monk sustained damage and support their already powerful OGCD burst.
I mean speaking as a monk myself the change might help Ninja get a little better while the effects on Dragoon and Monk might be a bit much. Though less so with Dragoon since they can already negate positional requirements every so often.
Honestly thinking on it it's a bit hard to say exactly how strong of a buff this would be. I wouldn't mind seeing them try it out to determine if its too strong. -
04-01-2016, 07:30 AMCherubYea, no. Allowing everyone to break a cast by a mere auto attack isn't balanced. It's retarded. There is a difference between being utterly useless deadweight who does 0 DPS because of a MNK's auto attack and DPS actually doing DPS even if the potency is lowered by 40 potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
Being able to cast for 15 seconds freely every 3 minutes is not balanced, even more so when a piece of flying paper still interrupts you within those 15 seconds.
Can't believe when a melee is asking for more nerfs on ranged and buffs on melees...smh -
04-01-2016, 07:48 AMCynricI think what Koltik meant by that was there was a detriment to every class inside PVP. Melee couldn't reliably position, Ranged couldn't reliably turret, and Healers couldn't reliably cast a heal at all times. In a way having a detriment to your job choice is in a way somewhat balanced, the detriment to casters was just a bit too high at the time.(Especially for Black mage)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherub
Where as now the only thing true in that statement is that a Melee can't reliably position all the time, and for a job like Ninja this can make a valuable tool like Trick attack much harder to use.
It's definitely a lot harder to interrupt casts without having CD's up to do so now. If they were as easy to interrupt Dark Knight might not be as bad as it currently is.
In most cases you're correct a lost positional isn't the end of the world for us Melee players, however in the case of Ninja specifically it can cause issues with their burst kit.
In the same vein a gained positional (outside of maybe bootshine in the proper form, which requires the proper form outside of perfect balance) might not be such a huge deal either. The only class where positional requirements can actually make your burst harder to do is Ninja as far as I know, and they would benefit directly from a buff like this, where as Monk and Dragoon could either need to be toned down or would function more or less the same as they do now.
I'm not saying they definitely should buff melee in general but it is the only role that still retains its original detriment from the start of Wolves Den. -
04-01-2016, 08:48 AMKoltikThanks for making my job easy. This is exactly what I was getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
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04-01-2016, 10:51 AMRiceisNice
Your potencies are already relatively high compared to what ranged can put out, and you have auto attacks on top of buffs that increase damage dealt (through raw damage, attack speed, or both(. The positionals at that point far eclipses what non-melees can already do.
Only DRG was truly hindered by this because their combo extensions and skill applications were entirely reliant on positional; if you missed the positional on heavy, impulse drive or chaos thrust, you didn't get anything except a 100 potency hit out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
Much less so in 3.x now because every job has gotten more abilities that deal damage regardless of positional (forbidden chakra, DwaD, etc etc) -
04-01-2016, 10:54 AMKoltikThen why do good BRD and MCH's completely outclass good melee DPS in damage? This just isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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04-01-2016, 11:05 AMRiceisNiceThat assumption though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
On a serious note, though, the other factor is uptime. Consider this; I typically beat out melee in damage dealt by maybe 10k per match, but I'm attacking much more frequently than they are. They have the burden of staying within range on their targets, and rarely do they ever stand still to act as a dummy (unless they're casting) -
04-01-2016, 11:09 AMCynric
To be fair Machinist still gets their turret for something similar to an auto attack which is a lot more reliable than ours.
As for potency without proper positioning. I think it's a bit lower than you think.
As an example since I know it the best and Dragoon can already negate penalties here is Monk.
Bootshine 150/ Auto Crit in oppo from/perfect balance from rear
Dragon Kick 100/150 from flank
Twin Snakes 100/140 from flank
True Strike 150/ 190 from rear
Demolish 30/70 from rear
Snap Punch 140/180 from flank
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Aside from true Strike and Snap punch they aren't really anything to write home about. Monks don't get most their power from their GCD skill potency and instead get it from GL3.
Dragoon however gets a ton of potency from its respective GCDs, but.. they can already negate positional requirements anyway.
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Also I only really ever get beat in damage dealt in short matches, In short ones I think I see like 80-90k? and in full timer ones I see from 170k to 200k+ depending on how long I decide to pressure people or if I get CC'd with fetter/purify on CD.
I have to agree with Rice on damage dealt. Getting beat by ranged on damage dealt isn't exactly impractical. They're ranged and probably get more up-time right from the start than you will.. Usually anyway. -
04-01-2016, 11:12 AMKoltikAssumption?Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
http://i.imgur.com/qNTFiMM.png
If I'm not a good melee DPS, then show me one. I'm always top melee dmg in matches. https://xivpvp.com/character/3371851/Koltik-Morrel -
04-01-2016, 11:19 AMCynric
The Feast (Solo) match (08m00s) on Aether - https://xivpvp.com/feast/match/16916
Though its a loss at least it recorded on my profile I guess. This is usually what I see number wise myself.
Shame my matches don't always show up on this website. I guess its because i'm a ps4 player and don't run the client.
It even has my PVP Rank wrong lol. But the damage dealt and match outcome are correct. -
04-01-2016, 11:24 AMKoltikThis isn't the point. The point is reliable damage. I could link huge damage games all day, but the fact of the matter is that brd/mch can now do this kind of damage reliably, whereas before they could not (like us).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
Just for you: http://i.imgur.com/d5WMDNA.png
Can we pull 200k+? Yes. Is it reliable? No. Have I seen good BRD/MCH/SMN do it game after game? Yes. -
04-01-2016, 11:25 AMRiceisNiceI should have /s'd that at the very least because it's not meant to be a snide comment to anyone, but if you want me to pitch in. There's many variables to go by if you want to do a direct damage comparison (because I'm looking through your logs, and its just as inconsistent when it comes to you outdpsing the ranged/BRD in your party), such as heavy medal, full swing, and burst damage. Ask yourself this; would you prefer a BRD/MCH or a melee to stay on a caster to make sure they don't get any casts off, in regards to the interrupt changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
I've had a handful of matches where the variance between me and my melee is around 10-20k (and the times it gets incredibly lopsided are usually due to deaths or a short match timer). I've also had matches where my damage dealt gets hyper inflated because I'm targetting a 9 stack tank who isn't dying (because the melee is attacking the wrong target), although that ended up being a loss. -
04-01-2016, 11:33 AMCynricI'm not here to compare my damage with yours. I'm saying it's perfectly possible to get far above ranged with melee depending on the match. As you said every match is relative, however ranges only advantage with a stat like damage dealt is they have range, thus more uptime on players. It's also easier for them to multi dot and inflate the score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
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04-01-2016, 11:35 AMKoltikThe only comment I have to this is player skill. Not all BRD/MCH are the same, nor are melee DPS. However, at the top-end, I definitely am seeing BRD/MCH completely outclass any melee DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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04-01-2016, 11:46 AMCynricI've seen ranged breaking that far up as well. The problem I see with going off of damage dealt is it's very easy to inflate for ranged, for melee not so much. But having a huge damage score isn't the most reliable gauge of actual contribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
If anything I feel like a ranged doing their job properly should definitely be beating us in damage dealt. But we'll still be able to get kills more often in the end.
However as a Ninja the situation is a little different. My positional skills on monk are of little consequence to me,however Ninja kind of needs trick attack to become more reliable in its kit. -
04-01-2016, 09:31 PMPetiteAuto attacks are practically useless as they don’t auto face your frantically running targets. You can take off GB so you can auto attack too if you think its that helpful. I’d much rather have +20% dmg to all my weaponskills and abilities like GB/WM grants you than unreliable auto attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
"Assumption"Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltik
http://i.imgur.com/tR0gUNT.png -
04-01-2016, 11:47 PMRiceisNiceThe problem with BRD/MCH auto attack is that it's affected by a range penalty (as well as any other attack without GB/WM active), on top of their relatively low weapon damage to begin with. It's only been until now that their damage had some what resembelence of consistency, where beforehand GB/WM had the same ranged damage penalty and it'd fluctuate wildly between a 0% and 75%+ damage reduction because they were too far or too close (and they had to address that for seal rock due to GB/WM eliminating your free mobility) With the interrupt changes, there's very little advantage to having GB/WM off when even feint can do more damage on a typical basis (no range penalty), exception being to set up BRD DoTs and MCH procs. There's other things to consider when your target on the move (they aren't casting, for one). And you can also set weapon skills to auto-face target. Or if you're playing standard, you'd keep them within your range anyway with right click.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
And since you want to bring up damage dealt (because as I mentioned before, you can't take this for direct context) tell me how you lost when you have less overall deaths. Maybe your tank died with 300 medals at the very end due 9 stacks of heavy medal. There's another factor on healers who focus on preventing damage rather than healing it back up. It's certainly not being overwhelmed.
I'll bring this up again, would you rather send a melee such as a DRG or MNK to harass/interrupt a spell caster like a BLM, or a MCH/BRD? -
04-02-2016, 12:02 AMPetiteWe lost because the enemy drg LBed our tank with less than a minute left and I blew mine too early. Trying to derail the subject is cheap by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
My point still stands. Weaponskills and abilities will auto face targets, but your auto attacks won't. If you think melee auto attacks are a big deal, you're sorely mistaken. They are in PvE, but not PvP. -
04-02-2016, 12:11 AMRiceisNiceI'm not derailing if I'm asking for more context behind your points, that's how discussion/arguments move on and it's not entirely irrelevant to what I want to get to. Melee attacks are still a factor to your damage, whether you want to acknowledge that or not. It's something that's still added on and done that ranged and casters cannot, setting their attack potencies aside. Which brings back to my point; you don't want to stand still against a melee because then their damage goes up by a good amount from autos. If auto attacks weren't that big of a deal, we'd never stand still to take it to the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
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04-02-2016, 03:57 AMDimitriiWow did they add rating (+/-) on the scoreboard at the end of the match last patch or have I somehow been missing that for the past 3 or 4 weeks wtf lol? Even without seeing the full name I recognize the MCH on that claws team from Famfrit though he's really good. Anyway auto-attacks don't bridge the gap between melee and ranged cumulative damage dealt because as was said before its unreliable unless the foe is standing in one place for some odd reason. Even at reduced dmg from distance penalty, ranged reduced dmg on the move is still more than full melee dmg that isnt registering with nearly as much consistency as ranged. However with the new buff to spell interruption rate Im not sure that many brd/mch even take off their turret stances anymore. I dont really think taking off the melee directional requirements is even needed though for drg/mnk, I mean i'll take the buff to my non burst rotations if you wanna give it to me but DRG feels fine as is. Only really NIN can make a case for this but SE already gave em free buffs last update anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
High Five to that fellow DRG from Diabolos too dont see many from my server these days. -
04-02-2016, 04:24 AMRiceisNiceThis is exactly what you want to discourage if we're taking about a melee dps. However, I've seen my fair share of chases where BLMs can manage to do this anyway and still get casts off, and worst off is that they're paired with a WHM so any damage oyu dealt can easily be healed back up because you can't lock down the WHM without stuns. Of course that's a seperate issue, but that aside, my point is while it's not going to bridge the two jobs on a typical scenario, it's that melee shouldn't get free positional bonuses because of that. It's not a perfect scenario for them, but you don't nesescarl want to create that perfect scenario (much like giving the casters a 15% hp interrupt, or removing all those LoS walls on top of that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
I can't necessarily attest to their motile damage outside of oGCDs or burst. Their weaponskills average around 150 potency +30% from WM/GB, compared to a NIN/MNK getting near 20% with faster GCDs, or a DRG having 10% with higher potencies. However, I can say that I don't really ever take off GB anymore, I'd get the same (albeit more reliable) milage by chasing people down feint, unless I used a 5 ammo reload and wanted to get split shot in for a proc (and use GB immediately after).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii