Darks will be left in the dark after this. Not only did PLD get a huge buff mnk got one they didn't really need. So will someone tell me why a sword and board can out dps a great sword? It just doesn't make sense.
Why did PLD get such a buff
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02-21-2016, 04:02 AMOrpheus65478Why did PLD get such a buff
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02-21-2016, 04:11 AMAwful
Because no one was playing paladin in Alex savage and wasn't able to clear unless they switched to Drk and War due to the high DPS they bring, so paladins had to wait until they had enough gear and which by then the rewards didn't justify the means. The reason paladin got these buffs is so that all 3 tanks are viable in content and that one's not left out which is why everyone can do content with every tank as the next tier of Alex is not going to be as DPS check heavy (from what we know of) it'll be more mechanic based. Drks are very strong tanks and even compared to paladin they have more options as cover, tempered will are still not used in paladins tool kits, but at least they got a buff to Clemency and Divine Veil which is a step to the direction. Drk uses ALL of their toolkit and it works well with them i'll stand by that till the end, these changes were needed to balance all 3 tank classes and not leave paladin yet again in raid content.
Tldr; paladins won't out dps Drks they haven't nor will they just needed these changes in order to keep up with the other tanks and secure a tanking spot rather than lose it again in new raid content. -
02-21-2016, 04:14 AMSpookyGhostIt won't. Happy to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus65478
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02-21-2016, 05:21 AMGalgarionYou can take a little time out of your day to compare The Dark Knight's attack potency and sheer breath of OCD attacks (and newly reduced TP costs) with the newly buffed Paladin's adjustments and see that you're completely wrong and should stop complaining before doing your homework.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus65478
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02-21-2016, 05:21 AMPhoenicia
20 potency here and 30 potency there is exactly what I laughed with my friends about SE's PLD buffs... PLD still has 0 DPS GCDs like Flash. PLD still has iffy at best CD gaps. PLD just got a little bit more viable and less clunky. Imo, it probably is still the worst of the three.
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02-21-2016, 05:24 AMSyzygian
DRK is still ahead of PLD in DPS in OT and MT slots, and is the potentially highest MT DPS. DPS isn't the problem with DRK. Utility is, at this point.
Look at the balance of the melee DPS for guidance. Its arguably perfect:
MNK: best DPS, worst utility
DRG: high DPS, high utility
NIN: worst DPS, best utility
Why SE seems incapable/unwilling to strike this balance with the 3 tanks escapes me.
Currently DRK is the DRG of tanks on DPS, but the MNK of tanks on utility. Come now. -
02-22-2016, 03:58 AMDBelmontThat is very well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-22-2016, 04:19 AMAtoliThanks for making me laugh very hard ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus65478
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02-22-2016, 04:26 AMMrsFluffyButt
OP clearly knows things, folks.
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02-22-2016, 04:28 AMLaunchedNah, if you want DRK to be considered the DRG of tanks, it shouldn't be able to outDPS WAR in any situation. But it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-22-2016, 08:57 AMSwordCoheirYeah, but it's arguable when you work in WAR's utility too. I think it ends up working like this for Tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
WAR: Best OT DPS, High MT DPS, Best Utility
DRK: High OT DPS, Best MT DPS, Worst Utility
PLD: Worst OT DPS, Worst MT DPS, High Utility (And I'm being generous with utility for Pally's)
Only thing they got going for them equally is defensive capability with minor advantages based on specific situations that happen to cater to their strengths. -
02-22-2016, 09:23 AMInstrumentalityWhat situation would this be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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02-22-2016, 09:55 AMAnubis_Nephthys
Have you seen fflogs? In terms of dps, it's WAR>DRK>PLD
Top 10 WARs are doing 1392.4 (averaged) dps on AS1.
Top 10 DRKs are doing 1340.3
Top 10 PLDs are doing 1125.4
For AS1, the top PLD is ranked #96 in terms of all tank dps.
That's why they got a buff. -
02-22-2016, 10:51 AMSyzygianLet me get this straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
Its okay for WAR to be the MNK of tanks on DPS and the NIN of tanks on utility at the same time with none of the drawbacks. But its not okay for DRK to have at least DRG level utility?
WAR and DRK each get a +1 for their top DPS in OT and MT respectively, but on utility, its more like 2:0.5 WAR:DRK.
DRK should have equal utility to WAR.
Anyway, I'd happily sacrifice the one niche situation where I can outDPS WAR for better utility, because that one situation where I can outDPS WAR requires an extremely co-operative WAR (one that is willing to sacrifice BB spam) and requires me to tank out of tank stance for 90% of an encounter, otherwise it ain't happening. -
02-22-2016, 11:19 AMSpookyGhostPersonally (and I've posted this before), I've always felt like to separate the tanks all 3 should have equal damage and mitigation, but be separated by the utility they bring. Make it so that any composition can clear it, but certain jobs unique utility can be complimentary to the fight, or maybe even have all 3 have some unique contribution to the fight. It'd be min/maxed by world first raiders, but it'd be very small gains in only certain aspects of the fight that would be trivialized by anyone not racing for world clears (even then if it's a small enough difference people might not care at all). Some could argue that this would be homogenization, but you could definitely make the utility pretty unique while still making them all equally beneficial. I dunno, I always thought it was weird that WAR did more DPS - maybe if it had horrible mitigation, but that seems like a really poor trade off for a y'know... tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-22-2016, 11:31 AMSyzygianI mean, it can be totally different utility, and I'm all for that. The balance of DPS is fine IMO. Hell, even PLD could still use some utility buffs. They both could, because neither of them can bring the personal DPS contribution that WAR can, unless the DRK is lucky enough to have a group that is willing to cater to Gritless MTing, which requires a lot of sacrifices, and may not even be a thing this tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
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02-22-2016, 01:35 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHI don't see how it's balanced per se when one class is nearly entirely unused. Most raid groups I know of are running drg and nin so they can maximize raid DPS. I only know of one monk with a static, rest will take a monk to high end raids when they'll take a paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-22-2016, 01:53 PMViolette
Put deliverance and defiance on the gcd. Boom, war kicked in the teeth.
But if the damage is not squeezed into 5 seconds out of 25, then we see wars ability to dps during the mt phase hampered. -
02-22-2016, 02:24 PMValkyrie-AmberJust like how A great axe wielder or great sword wielder is more tanky than a sword and board it makes no sence eiter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus65478
Ballance matters get used to it -
02-22-2016, 07:34 PMReynhartShouldn't you ask how a knife can outdps a great sword too ? Or a barefist ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Orpheus65478
Or how you can keep your aim while running around with your bow, even when not facing your target ?
Reality has no place here :p -
02-22-2016, 11:23 PMValkyrie-AmberI actually don't think I have read a truer statement on these forums till now omg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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02-23-2016, 12:46 AMKhalithar
Because pld needed it. Also, pld isn't suddenly the top dps of all the tank classes, all this did was lower the gap between the three.
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02-23-2016, 03:12 AMDarkstride
As far as DRK utility, it doesn't even need new or different abilities, it could work with added Dark Arts effects.
Dark Arts + Salted Earth:
Adds vulnerability to damage over time effects. DoTs deal 10% more damage to any targets within the Salted Earth area. This is a unique effect that doesn't conflict with any other jobs, but does provide support to the group.
Dark Arts + Blood Weapon:
Weapon skills add a debuff to the target lasting 4 seconds that causes any hits from anyone in the party to drain a small amount of health. The debuff is refreshed each time a weaponskill is used while under the effect of Blood Weapon. This would be a small aid that could be used in situations where there is consistent raid-wide damage to help take a little pressure off of the healers (think Drain Samba for anyone familiar with FFXI).
DRK doesn't need a buff, but some added utility would be nice. These are just a couple of ideas that I had. -
02-23-2016, 04:17 AMSoloNightlock
Imo a cool solution to plds tp problem would be to make it so cover grants tp each time dmg is prevented sort of like bloodprice does for drks mp but a reverse.
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02-23-2016, 04:27 AMSoloNightlockWoops thought I was on a different thread, my mistake I don't see that mentioned here @-@Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloNightlock
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02-23-2016, 04:27 AMMagiusNecrosYou raise a fair point. Since Dark Arts is the DRK's main gimmick I feel Dark Arts should have an effect on the HW gained skills. Only AD and CnS have this. Salted Earth, Plunge, and Sole Survivor having enhanced effects would be interesting to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstride
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02-23-2016, 04:40 AMReynhartDark Arts + Sole Survivor could give a buff/debuff not tied to the death of the target. This way, it could be useful even when there's no add around.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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02-23-2016, 04:57 AMSyzygianYou have to be careful with this. DRK's rotation is already a veritable sea of button mashing without giving everything DA effects. Giving things like Plunge and SaE DA effects, you'd have to not make them *too* good or, between those and DP/DACS, DASE would barely have any room in the rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
Any added DA effects would have to be on situational abilities and not things that are a regular part of the rotation, which is already incredibly busy. -
02-23-2016, 05:21 AMReynhartEasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Increase Soul Eater's basic potency to 350, and make Dark Arts only increase the leech effect to 150%. There, one less skill where you would use Dark Arts as an OT. It would probably be a little DPS loss, since you use DA on the majority of Soul Eater, but it wouldn't really be a big deal.
It's the same for Dark Dance and Dark Mind, wich are not very useful when you're not MT.
This way, you could have DA+Blood Weapon refill HP or TP, since you'd need less MP back.
This way, wether you're MT or OT, you wouldn't spend Dark Arts on the same thing, and you could have a very different feel and a distinct utility. -
02-23-2016, 05:22 AMMagiusNecrosWhat if it is enhanced by Dark Arts to offer a essentially a 15 second trick attack? Does not stack with a Ninja's Trick attack but they could be chained after each other. As it stands Sole Survivor has very little use in a boss encounter with little to no adds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
This way you have a choice to either possibly refund HP/MP stores or simply employ more raid damage.
A mere suggestion. -
02-23-2016, 06:19 AMDarkstrideI think what I proposed above are pretty situational enhancements and would hardly be required or make DRK more favorable in all situations. Increased DoT damage for the party would be a nice perk, but it wouldn't be changing the tide of battle by any means. Adding slight healing support would be just that - support if and when it's needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
I do agree that DRK already has a lot of button pressing to do, but given the cost of Dark Arts, you have to manage how often you use it anyway. More options doesn't necessarily mean you have to use it more, it means you have to be aware of your situation and use it the right way. -
02-23-2016, 08:13 AMSyzygianIts just that DRK's dps rotation is one of the few things about it that is well designed and doesn't need tweaking. When you add DA effects to damaging oGCDs, you alter the rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstride
The average DRK OT rotation uses 5 DAs per minute. 4 DASEs, and 1 DACS. So if you add DA effects to things like Plunge and SaE, suddenly DASE becomes almost obsolete if their DA effects are a net gain because they would usurp 2 and 1.5 DAs every minute, respectively. At the end of the day it would also likely nerf or buff DRK's personal DPS, neither of which is necessary.
TLDR I'd rather see DA effects on things like Sole Survivor or just more different in/out of Grit effects that provide party-based raid utility, and leave DRK's DPS playstyle untouched. That's just me though. -
02-23-2016, 09:02 AMReynhartLike I said, what if the effect of DA on Souleater would only benefit a MT ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
You could have a well designed rotation for MT, and another one for OT, based upon where you use your 5 Dark Arts per minute. -
02-23-2016, 10:07 AMValkyrie-Amber
So umm people claim plds have large party utility skills.
lets see rage of harlone: single target 10% dmg down debuff in old days pre hw you could just roh several mobs but now we have a few other important combos to use.
cover: well if someones about to die and healer fails to heal them fast enougth can save, combine that with hallowed 2 immortal objects 10 sec.
Devine Veil: basicly party stoneskin after reciveing a cure but its 10% based off plds hp.
Clemency: now with 2 second cast could becomesomewhat better but can still only use 2 in a chain till not enougth mp.
and the buffs people want for Dark is like damage boosters and wars slashing debuff..... I think utility like that is far more better anything plds have if you have good healers you all know right?
If drk got a slashing debuff then pld would always be sidelined worse than in 3.1.... ballance please concider it when thinking up buffs for your class.... -
02-23-2016, 10:16 AMDivine_InterventionFixed for ya..Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
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02-23-2016, 10:22 AMSyzygianYou'd have to somehow find a way for +140 potency to not benefit an OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
When you have to start pushing aspects of the job aside to make changes instead of just adding something where there is room for something to be added, you get poor design. -
02-23-2016, 05:00 PMReynhartI already said such a way :Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
You could even increase the leech effect to 200% under Dark Arts, it would help recover after Walking dead, now that tanks will have higher HP pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart