Yes or No, and Explain, Please.

Is house buying/selling in a the context of normal gameplay a punishable offense? Not in the context of land barons(whom I know are a major contributor to this whole problem), but for those of us that MIGHT buy/sell one or two houses in our entire FF14 career. I was hit for a violate of the User Agreement, but the listed 3.2 and 2.6 do not fit, I was not disrupting the client, data, connection, SE software, or SE hardware, not was I using FF14 to commit fraud, defamation, or gambling. I know 3.6 refers to using the game to commit these crimes since casinos are gambling but since they are ingame only they are not a violation. Who do I talk to in order to get this mark against my otherwise good record removed? Who in authority over this matter going to answer these questions once and for all for myself but most importantly the entire fanbase?

It has been mentioned before that selling houses is a violation of the terms and conditions. I'm not sure where in the t/c it says so though, but there was a recent forum post about it. I think it's due to the whole buy a place, then sell it for gil, then the person has to pay more gil to buy the plot, then more for the housing permit, thus encouraging RMT activity. I think it'll ease up if they fix the housing issue.

You can get 80% of your plot investment back if it's demolished. This is what SE has deemed acceptable.
They aren't products to be used to flip a profit.

It's because you aren't selling anything. You're performing an unprotected transaction. There is no guarantee that a third party couldn't run up and just buy the house right after you've taken the Gil. There are also people abusing the system, unfortunately regardless of how poor a system we perceive it to be, you're still committing the same violation as those who abuse it. One time or fifty, it makes no difference. Waiting the 45 days for the plot to demolish and return your Gil and furniture is the only protected way of return. Nothing is transferred between you and the person you're taking Gil from, thus you are not selling anything. It's ultimately a bribe to demolish your house and vacate, while the other player must actually go purchase the plot from the game directly, and then pay to have the house constructed on said plot.

LordLucavi, I've heard, but there is nothing in the UA that can be applied to house selling. I'm ok with them adding a clear one, for OR against housing sales. EU GMs seem to think house selling even in PF is OK, but NA GMs are adamant against it.

Canadane, it might come to that. :\ I bought the house from a player...they probably flipped the lot, but since I didn't have the time to camp on Christmas I'm fine with trading my gathering/crafting gil. Market systems rock.

Judah_Brandt, that's true of everything, sadly. My 99 stack of Blue Ooids isn't mine, nor is the gil I get when I sell them on the market board. Nowhere is housing sales disallowed, and it's true no guarantees are made. Let the players have that risk, or support the market by implementing systems, or explicitly ban it!

Please, Devs, be explicit on this, I'm down with whatever you decide! I'll keep the mark on my account against me if it'll mean the policy is clear and correctly followed by all GMs!

It isn't though, because you're listing the item on the market board for direct purchase, as in they receive the items in exchange for the Gil. The transaction can not be tampered with. If there was some form of Market Board for housing, then that would be fine, but there isn't and the workaround is heavily exploited.

yep because there is no system implemented to sell a house so I say just the motion is bad. basicly if you buy a house from someone what your really spending that gil on is nothing cause you still have to rebuy the plot after.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

It's because you aren't selling anything. You're performing an unprotected transaction. There is no guarantee that a third party couldn't run up and just buy the house right after you've taken the Gil.

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So? There is no rule against doing that kind of transaction.

Reading through the official rules there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING in them that would indicate to any reasonable person that selling a house for Gil would violate any of the rules.

All right. So I say I'm selling you a house. You give me 40 million Gil. I walk away. You're now out 40 million Gil. Is that wrong? Because there's nothing in the official rules saying I can't do that. Hiding behind "It didn't EXACTLY say I can't do something" is a poor argument. You won't agree, however, so there really isn't a point to carrying this conversation further.

As someone stated, taking money just for the act of relinquishing the plot is just a bribe for the person to do so. It's sorts similar to ask money of not killing a hunt target before everyone is around, just a bribe to act in certain way. Regardless if you actually release the plot or not there is no quarantee from your part that the person who paid it will get it (as someone said, some third party could snatch it in between, there was a case that spilled overy on forum of that quite some time ago) so you can't actually sell the plot and if you advertise it that way it indeed is a fraud, you are saying you are selling them something you can't technically sell. Since America is the promised land of following the text of law instead of the spirit of it, as the saying goes, it's not hard to see they take even stronger hand at this discrepancy in advertising falsely. In their way to take things, it's not the responsibility of the buyer to require any other knowledge than what the seller side of a trade says, and if they had not prepared with the extra gil over the price you stated they indeed would be left hanging as propably someone who sees an empty plots picks it up while they are sorting the situation they were dropped into by getting false I formation from someone who stated they are -selling- the plot for certain sum.

Then again, if want to be ok with 'its not separately declined in tos' I know a bridge I could sell you. Sturdy stone bridge even, fancy view too.

TL/DR you're committing a fraud the moment you claim you're selling the plot, instead of stating you're selling the release of the plot to be bought from the game.

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Originally Posted by Sida

TL/DR you're committing a fraud the moment you claim you're selling the plot, instead of stating you're selling the release of the plot to be bought from the game.

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^
This.

It's a lie/fraud, if you say 'Selling plot for x Mio. Gil, send tell.', because you literally do not sell it.

Like 'Selling Thordan weapon drop', if in reality you meant by this that you (not speaking for the other 6 ppl) will pass on the weapon.

'Will relinquish plot for x Gil.' or 'Selling Thordan Kill' instead would be okay.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

^
This.

It's a lie/fraud, if you say 'Selling plot for x Mio. Gil, send tell.', because you literally do not sell it.

Like 'Selling Thordan weapon drop', if in reality you meant by this that you (not speaking for the other 6 ppl) will pass on the weapon.

'Will relinquish plot for x Gil.' or 'Selling Thordan Kill' instead would be okay.

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Ah, so you are just arguing semantics?
I suspect just about everyone involved knows exactly what is meant by 'Selling a plot/house'

It may just be semantics, but Sida is right. If you were selling off the time for when your house would be demolished, it would be a lot clearer and a lot harder for them to hold against you, not to mention safer for the buyer if you did it at a set, specific time instead of right after your PF vanishes.

As for the topic itself, it's their game, they can ban you or warn you for whatever they want. I'm nearly positive that the EULA and ToUA actually state that fact, too, it would be worded as something along the lines of "any offense deemed punishable at Square Enix's sole discretion".

The housing system has a plethora of flaws though, and this is just one more of them. I will likely -never- let my home go, because I don't want to lose any furnishings I can't remove. I have, however, considered selling my house for the MB cost of the furnishings and what I paid for it. I honestly can't say I feel that selling homes is something that is right or wrong though, it seems to be more of a grey area. The line would more likely be drawn at the price and circumstances.

I would personally support a system using the boards in front of houses for people to put them up for bid. The home and all furnishings, as-is, for a price starting at the market value of the plot. People could remove whatever furnishings they want(and were able to), before they listed their home, and the moment they put it up for auction, it could stay there for a week with all home customization locked and the door unlocked. Also, the ability to voluntarily relinquish your home would help a lot, as there is currently no reason to demolish your home unless you're paid for it, and waiting 45 days to get your money is a bit ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

All right. So I say I'm selling you a house. You give me 40 million Gil. I walk away. You're now out 40 million Gil. Is that wrong? Because there's nothing in the official rules saying I can't do that. Hiding behind "It didn't EXACTLY say I can't do something" is a poor argument. You won't agree, however, so there really isn't a point to carrying this conversation further.

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http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...=68216&id=5382

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Scam
In-game scams are defined as any inappropriate actions meant to defraud a fellow player with the intent to take in-game items or other possessions from them.

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Selling relinquishment of your plot isn't a scam, taking payment for something you don't do is a scam.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Ah, so you are just arguing semantics?
I suspect just about everyone involved knows exactly what is meant by 'Selling a plot/house'

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Yes, because if you sent a GM a chat log and demand punishment of someone who fraud you
they will care about semantics, too.

Or, the other way round:

I don't think you'll be banned for any of those transactions, in case someone sends in a copy of the chat log:

'If you pay me x Mio. Gil I will throw away all my gear / relinquish my plot / guide you trough a dungeon / be your personal servant / run in circles for 2 hours / camp at the housing area and inform you when a plot gets free.'
- 'Deal. Here's your money.'

Since afair GMs always look on (chat) logs to decide if someone is guilty of fraud/scam I'd say semantics are important.


But I have never seen a chat log or justification by GM for a ban because of plot 'selling', so maybe I'm wrong with my upper estimation.

Yeah, you aren't selling a Plot. You're taking a bribe to demolish your house. They have to purchase the plot from the game. You've just taken an in game item from a player for nothing. There is no exchanging of goods. Gouging another player for millions of Gil, then they still have to purchase the plot. So there you go. You aren't selling value. You're inflating an action to have perceived value. So you'd report a player for taking your Gil, because you were trying to buy something that explicitly can't be sold. Thanks for the citation. Therefor, there can't be a scam, just a player who gave someone a bunch of Gil to try and circumvent a poorly implemented housing system. Quit defending it.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

I suspect just about everyone involved knows exactly what is meant by 'Selling a plot/house'

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You are totally wrong, here on this forums some few time ago was posted couple of cases where people was asking help from GM's because that statement was not clear, as those players just looking the selling advertisement on party finder and didnt had much background information about it. So in the end they ended paying for plot being free and then being unable to buy the plot.
Though of course was some of their fault the lacking of information, still the Selling plot advertisement falls under a false advertisement case.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Yeah, you aren't selling a Plot. You're taking a bribe to demolish your house. They have to purchase the plot from the game. You've just taken an in game item from a player for nothing. There is no exchanging of goods. Gouging another player for millions of Gil, then they still have to purchase the plot. So there you go. You aren't selling value. You're inflating an action to have perceived value. So you'd report a player for taking your Gil, because you were trying to buy something that explicitly can't be sold. Thanks for the citation. Therefor, there can't be a scam, just a player who gave someone a bunch of Gil to try and circumvent a poorly implemented housing system. Quit defending it.

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You are taking in game currency to do an in game action. If that's the transaction both parties understand, there is no scam.

The value of that action is what someone is willing to give for it, and what someone else is willing to accept for it. Value is perceived by those doing the transaction, not what you think it should be worth. The same holds true for everything, in game and in real life.

I would say its against ToS. As someone just 2 weeks ago made a post selling their house, i made a reply something along the lines "I think thats against ToS And you can get banned for it"

That topic disappeared.

No, you're trying to "sell" a house. Stop dancing around an action that is clearly toxic and taking advantage of a situation by making it seem innocent. It isn't, it's unfair, and it's literally the definition of ransom.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

No, you're trying to "sell" a house. Stop dancing around an action that is clearly toxic and taking advantage of a situation by making it seem innocent. It isn't, it's unfair, and it's literally the definition of ransom.

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Unfair to who, the people that want a house for way less than it's worth but weren't lucky enough to get it during the initial sale? If someone didn't "put a house up for sale," there's a 99.9% chance that the person who unfairly doesn't have a house still wouldn't have a house.

The house is "worth" whatever the game sells it for. The Gil you purchased the house for is of no consequence. Whatever the lot sells for from the server is the only price a player should have to pay. The system sucks because you don't get all of your Gil back, so yeah keep justifying your ransom. A player owning the plot adds literally zero value, so extorting money from another player in exchange for literally nothing is absolutely ludicrous. If the plot came with the house you built and the furniture you put in it, I'd say great. But there isn't even a system to fairly auction the house, just a workaround where people gouge other players because they weren't lucky enough. It's ridiculous that the behavior is tolerated. It sucks you can't have everything you ever put into the feature back, but that is no justification for this entire crappy workaround to a bad system. Stop it.

No, the house, or any item or service in existence, is worth what someone is willing to give for it and someone else is willing to accept for it. What you think someone should pay or what something is worth is irrelevant unless you are a part of the transaction.

I think a Jackson Pollock painting isn't worth the cost of the canvas and paint used to make it, someone who owns it thinks it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars, someone who wants to buy it thinks it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's not worth $8.72, it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The owner isn't literally ransoming it.

You clearly don't get it, that's cool, we'll just agree to disagree and hopefully Square Enix will resolve the manner in a way that makes all players happy. Until then, they'll keep banning and warning players for what you seem to think is fair practice. Later.

I get your point, I just disagree with it. You think things should be more "fair" for everyone. The problem with your version of "fair" is that it removes all value from anything, making everything worthless.

My solution to your perceived problem - start the housing reverse auction at higher than what the property is actually worth. Nobody will buy a small house for 60M just to flip for 100M plus the 60M to actually buy the house.

ps - I have yet to hear of anyone banned for a legit "housing sale."

The Market Board still exists. My version of "fair" would be that the price of the house isn't dictated by the player base, it's dictated by the server as it is now. Just because I bought a house from the server for 14.5 million Gil doesn't immediately make the inherent value of that piece of content shoot up. My ownership adds zero value to that plot. If I build a house, if I add a garden, if I put a bunch of couches in the house - none of that adds value as it is not transferred to another player. Your side of the argument is that just by buying the plot you should automatically be able to sell it for more. What is your reasoning? Is it because of the limitations on the housing market, therefor you can now dictate the price as opposed to what the game values and dictates that content is worth?

Players can still sell their crafted wares for whatever price they deem appropriate - that is a free market. The housing market has clear prices set per server based upon data on that server's economy (poor, medium, rich) and that is the value of the property. The demand is created because there is a shortage of that asset, but the game does not account for supply and demand, the value of a plot is static and depreciates over time as the plot is not purchased, much like the Market Board has items that players reduce the cost on over time in order to entice its sale. The problem here is that you're trying to take the static value that the game charges for a feature (housing) and holding that ransom. Since you're unaware of what that word means I will help you.

"Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved."

You're saying that the player should be allowed to dictate the value of something that they literally can not dictate - The player can not increase the server-side price of a plot of land in the game. What they do is purchase the land for it's actual, defined cost, and then literally hold onto it in order to extort the player base into paying exorbitant amounts for a feature that cost them what it actually should have. If you don't understand how that's unfair I don't understand what level of comprehension you are capable of. Before you reply with an interpretation of this where you compare a static, game defined market to the player driven free one, please pause a moment to understand that they are two completely different things. You are not transferring any form of ownership for this fee. As you said before, you're exchanging an in-game action for in-game currency which is quite literally extortion since you are the sole definer of the market's value. The player has to pay whatever you ask, as you won't relinquish the plot otherwise, and that action in and of itself is far from perfect since it is entirely possible for the whole thing to blow up in your faces i.e. another player could walk up and purchase the plot thus negating any "deal" you had in place, then you're both out of Gil because not only did you just lose your "asset" but you'd have to refund the other person's Gil.

As for accounts that have been banned for illicit activity, why do you think there's an entire subreddit for these transactions. Yes, there are people who've been banned. Yes, there are people who've been warned, and yes, they absolutely deserve it.

You said it yourself "start the housing reverse auction at higher than what the property is actually worth..."

Clearly even you know it's wrong to get more than you paid for something when you add zero value to it. Leveraging a feature's scarcity against another player is toxic behavior, through and through. Notice I didn't say item, because housing isn't an item, is not part of the economy, and no matter what you say you can't magically define it that way because it isn't. It's a player-created market driven by personal greed. Fact.

The fact that there is not enough clarity in the ToS, UA, game guides, and individual GM decisions(take screenshots of these with grain of salt, SS can be faked!) is the reason this argument is happening at all. The distinction of if selling a house in the context of this game being innately good or innately bad is entirely irrelevant. I'm not looking for an Exact Text Line of "You shall not buy or sell houses!", but the spirits of the sections I keep getting pointed out do not apply. 3.2, spirit is "Don't screw with our clients, connections, or servers. 3.6, spirit is "Don't use our game to commit crimes." Nowhere covers the spirit of "Selling houses is bad."

Judah, you would have a ton of fun with a college Microeconomics class, its obvious you've put lots of thought into this and seeing how you stack up alongside a few centuries worth of free market studies might show you a potential career!

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Your side of the argument is that just by buying the plot you should automatically be able to sell it for more. What is your reasoning? Is it because of the limitations on the housing market, therefor you can now dictate the price as opposed to what the game values and dictates that content is worth?

Players can still sell their crafted wares for whatever price they deem appropriate - that is a free market. The housing market has clear prices set per server based upon data on that server's economy (poor, medium, rich) and that is the value of the property.

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My side is that it's an in game transaction for in game currency. The prices were set per server based on the economies of those servers 2 years ago. The fact that people are willing to pay 10x the cost shows that it's clearly outdated.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

"Ransom is the practice of holding a prisoner or item to extort money or property to secure their release, or it may refer to the sum of money involved."

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Look up extort now. The grocery store does not hold my food for ransom; they don't extort money from me.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

You're saying that the player should be allowed to dictate the value of something that they literally can not dictate - The player can not increase the server-side price of a plot of land in the game.

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You still don't seem to understand the difference between cost and value.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Leveraging a feature's scarcity against another player is toxic behavior, through and through. Notice I didn't say item, because housing isn't an item, is not part of the economy, and no matter what you say you can't magically define it that way because it isn't. It's a player-created market driven by personal greed. Fact.

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Housing clearly is part of the economy, and all markets everywhere were created by those participating in them, driven by personal greed. Fact.

I consider my issue closed in a satisfactory way, the GM supervisor I spoke with was great. My result cannot be taken as official policy so don’t bother citing it, but I will share my experience.

The warning is for using PF to advertise a house buy/sale. I accept the warning, since even I know Party Finder is only intended to assist party formation.
The GM team will investigate any report of inappropriate behavior, and if that GM finds the behavior inappropriate, a caution/warning/suspension/ban can occur.
That said, if neither the seller nor the buyer put in such a report, there is no third party with any cause to put in such a report.
I see this as incentive for sellers to not abuse the system, if the buyer regards anything about the transaction as inappropriate, they have cause to file a report, even if they don't buy. Seller beware! :D

The housing market is a very grey area, even to the GMs. They and players are all hoping for something they can cite! Your turn, SE!

Ultimately, this whole situation is currently a grey area that is being left up to the discretion of the representing GM that gets assigned to the situation until such time the people on the FFXIV team responsible for sorting out the ToS/EULA addendums/alterations can hammer out all the pertinent odds and ends. While they should have expected situations like land-barons and whatnot when housing was first introduced, there is nothing we can do about it now other than abide by the rulings made during the interim. Eventually, the agreements we consent to for this game are going to be updated to appropriately to reflect that a) offering to relinquish a housing plot for anything beyond free and/or b) selling a Free Company with an attached housing unit is against the ToS.

People have to deal with any infraction they receive at this point in time for violating the rules as they currently stand, and understand that FFXIV is not a democracy where the masses decide what is and is not right.

-Housing is a highly desirable, albeit extremely limited feature.
-Opportunities where new plots become available for purchase are extremely few and far between.

-Players, realising this, take advantage of the situation not to secure themselves a home they have long aspired for, but to steal from legitimate, aspiring home owners the closest possible aspect of "fair game" from the event which is the already-flawed option of 'First come, first serve'.
-Now, instead of home owners competing with one another to snatch up their very own home, they are also competing against monopolists whose sole intention is to deny them their chance at a housing plot and limit sales to the highest bidders at values exceeding what most people can afford.

-Said players try to justify their actions by comparing the practice to regular, renewable sales that are based on the rarity of current possession rather than the rarity of an all-consumed possession of a finite resource.


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Many, many people clearly were extremely excited about this feature FF brought and even with everyone in full acknowledgement of the incredibly flawed manner in which SE implemented it with regards availability versus demand, they still choose to make it next to impossible for the majority of people to so much as have a chance at achieving their goal all because selfishness prevails above all else. What's worse, they refuse to own up to their own underhanded behaviour and make excuses to make it sound like a legitimate practice as though housing were equatable to any other resource in the game.

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Originally Posted by NomadicDragon

Is house buying/selling in a the context of normal gameplay a punishable offense? ...

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IMO, It is a mystery! I think you have missed below thread? ^^;

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ent-on-housing


I think below is the conclusion, that's why I said it is a mystery..

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Originally Posted by dark494

27 pages and not even an acknowledgement from a GM, Community Rep, or Dev.

In the meantime GM's in-game are still doing whatever they please on the issue, PF's for selling houses are still there every day when I log on, and everyone's going crazy.

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You know this entire argument would be easily solved if SE just gave players a button to relinquish their house and get 80% of the gil back on demand. Having to wait 45 days for the auto-demolish to return any gil isn't a solution if someone wants to change servers or just saw another plot open up that they wanted instead. The problem here is a poorly implemented system. You can accuse players of being greedy all you like (though those selling under the circumstances I've listed above are NOT being greedy) but it's the flawed system itself that you really ought to be challenging.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

You know this entire argument would be easily solved if SE just gave players a button to relinquish their house and get 80% of the gil back on demand. Having to wait 45 days for the auto-demolish to return any gil isn't a solution if someone wants to change servers or just saw another plot open up that they wanted instead. The problem here is a poorly implemented system. You can accuse players of being greedy all you like (though those selling under the circumstances I've listed above are NOT being greedy) but it's the flawed system itself that you really ought to be challenging.

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A problem that could be easily solved by a simple change by SE in an update? Such a ridiculous notion. That will never be the case and we will never have to endure such limitations to enjoy our game play. Surely.