Proposal to remove Strength from future tank gear and accessories

With the upcoming change to the vitality stat affecting tank damage, has the development or item team considered removing strength from all future tank gear. if this stat were to be removed it could allow for more versatile tank stats by having more secondary stats replace the previous Strength stat i.e parry, accuracy, skill speed, crit., and determination.
since we dont exactly know the changes to vitality at this point for 3.2, would this proposal be viable and welcomed by players.

That would be assuming that STR will be worthless. We don't know if it will. If it's even half as effective as it is now, STR would be better then any secondary stat.

I think them keeping STR in our gear is intentional. By calculating AP with VIT but not phasing out STR entirely, they're actually nerfing our damage, as only one part of that whole can be on our right side gear, melds notwithstanding. Ironically, keeping STR in the equation is directly correlated with a potential nerf, which is probably happening to keep us from having the current HP/AP of both full slaying/fending builds simultaneously. If they remove STR entirely, I think they'll be making both HP and AP scale at about a 70-80% ratio with VIT. So it'll be like we've got pentamelds on all the time, which i would have zero issues with.

I'm currently working on the assumption that strength is not being nerfed below the value of other secondaries.

Just guessing, but where 1 STR is currently worth about 10 DET/CRIT/SS, it will be worth 6 or 7 after the change, making it still much more valuble.

I get this from them saying STR builds will still be feasable.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I get this from them saying STR builds will still be feasable.

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This is misleading. Yeah you'll probably still be able to wear it but they more specifically stated that VIT builds will be ideal and STR builds will not. And if STR and VIT both hold modifiers its actually in our best interest that they nerf STR harder, as that way the VIT on our accessories is proprotionately granting us more AP.

Even though it was nerfed, STR is still a modifier for parry/block.

Your crusade has won. Just leave it alone already.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Even though it was nerfed, STR is still a modifier for parry/block.

Your crusade has won. Just leave it alone already.

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It hasn't done that since the release of 3.0.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

parry/block.

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What are these stats. I don't even...

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Even though it was nerfed, STR is still a modifier for parry/block.

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That was removed in HW, iirc.

I think this is a two-part process. We will likely see them announce during 3.2, that in a near future patch (3.3 or 3.4) they will end up doing this. Keeping strength as a stat to scale a tank's attack power when vitality does that and more and is sold as the core stat for tanks, seems rather pointless. The reason we aren't seeing this happen immediately is to take it easier on the slower and less informed players who will get shocked just to see or hear about the change on and after the 23rd.

Both vit and str will contribute to the tanks attack power. If we are lucky it will be something like vit 70 / Str 30 to give 1 attack power. Or even 80/20.

Maybe not in 3.2 but later down the line I would like to see STR on our left side get phased out for a different stat, parry would be the logical choice since no one wants parry, if it was just a part of our gear as standard like the VIT on every other job is for them then it would be getting an upgrade from something people actively avoid to something people don't pay attention to. :P

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Even though it was nerfed, STR is still a modifier for parry/block.

Your crusade has won. Just leave it alone already.

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What are you even talking about here? It seems more likely to me that they did it because tank accessories have been dropping to the floor for a long time now while tanks compete with melee DPS for accessories. We don't even know yet if this will be an overall nerf to our damage or not. As far as STR being a modifier for Parry/Block, that stopped being a thing as soon as 3.0 released.

@OP - Every other class has 2 primary stats on their gear. Are you saying we should remove VIT from theirs?

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Even though it was nerfed, STR is still a modifier for parry/block.

Your crusade has won. Just leave it alone already.

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STR has no effect on parry or block whatsoever.
It used to increase the amount of damage blocked per parry but now parry is a flat 20% per parry, unaffected by stats.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I think them keeping STR in our gear is intentional. By calculating AP with VIT but not phasing out STR entirely, they're actually nerfing our damage, as only one part of that whole can be on our right side gear, melds notwithstanding. Ironically, keeping STR in the equation is directly correlated with a potential nerf, which is probably happening to keep us from having the current HP/AP of both full slaying/fending builds simultaneously. If they remove STR entirely, I think they'll be making both HP and AP scale at about a 70-80% ratio with VIT. So it'll be like we've got pentamelds on all the time, which i would have zero issues with.

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Every single right side in the future outside of maybe dungeon drops can have STR and VIT. Fending, Slaying, Raid, Crafted, etc.

Remove strength.....wait what......are you trying to rule DF out of play? If str is removed they have to revamp WAR. WAR needs attack damage with skills like blood bath, Path, IB, equilibrium. PLD needs attack for clemency. DRK needs it for soul eater and other fun stuff. Like yall trying to remove what made tanking enjoyable with some boring tank play. Please go play another MMO where you can be that boring tank standing in one spot doing nothing......

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Remove strength.....wait what......are you trying to rule DF out of play? If str is removed they have to revamp WAR. WAR needs attack damage with skills like blood bath, Path, IB, equilibrium. PLD needs attack for clemency. DRK needs it for soul eater and other fun stuff. Like yall trying to remove what made tanking enjoyable with some boring tank play. Please go play another MMO where you can be that boring tank standing in one spot doing nothing......

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You're a little behind the times and didn't read the thread. We're not saying remove strength from tanks, it's that we believe tanks, now that we're getting scaling based on VIT in 3.2, we shouldn't need STR on our gear at all, left or right. And while I don't think that this change is something that should happen in 3.2, I do think it should happen before Heavensward finishes.

No tanks, you ask all time for changes, also i don't see the point to this...
i don't want change in tank stat every patchs,
tank you...
also this change in 3.2 just make vita tank happy and str tank disapointed. it's what happen when players is complaining about everything for months.
SE can make any change, it will not reach everyone taste.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

You're a little behind the times and didn't read the thread. We're not saying remove strength from tanks, it's that we believe tanks, now that we're getting scaling based on VIT in 3.2, we shouldn't need STR on our gear at all, left or right. And while I don't think that this change is something that should happen in 3.2, I do think it should happen before Heavensward finishes.

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They still scale with str just not a dominate stat like vit. So keeping str will still boost something on tanks. The is idea kills the warrior class completely you would have to revamp WAR inorder for it to be relevant in anything if str is removed from gear. Like I said yall trying to hard to make tank play boring...

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

They still scale with str just not a dominate stat like vit. So keeping str will still boost something on tanks. The is idea kills the warrior class completely you would have to revamp WAR inorder for it to be relevant in anything if str is removed from gear. Like I said yall trying to hard to make tank play boring...

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I don't get what you're trying to argue here, VIT is going to give more attack power than STR after 3.2, having STR is no longer going to be necessary, WAR will still be just as strong using VIT as it would using STR how would it suddenly be boring because it's attack power comes from a different source (gear it can actually need on)?

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I don't get what you're trying to argue here, VIT is going to give more attack power than STR after 3.2, having STR is no longer going to be necessary, WAR will still be just as strong using VIT as it would using STR how would it suddenly be boring because it's attack power comes from a different source (gear it can actually need on)?

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Soooooooooooooo what you're saying berserk scales off vit now? And again str still benefits d tanks just not as much as vit so it's still a good stat to have just not to main. Removing it off gear will change WAR big time. Vit attack will not scale like it goes now. I'm almost sure SE is nerfing the attack damage due to more health. It would be asinine to have more health with the same current damage.

Wouldn't STR still have a place in block strength calculation and the amount of damage parried?

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Soooooooooooooo what you're saying berserk scales off vit now? And again str still benefits d tanks just not as much as vit so it's still a good stat to have just not to main. Removing it off gear will change WAR big time.

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You're flatly incorrect, WAR's skills that you're alluding to run off of Attack Power, which in 2 weeks is going to run off of VIT instead of STR, or VIT to a much higher extent than STR. So yes, actually, Berserk will (indirectly) scale off of VIT, as will (appropriately) Equilibrium and the like.

Between posts like this and people running around calling Defiance the new broken WAR DPS stance b/c of the VIT conversion, I have to seriously question whether anyone reads the damn manual when it comes to this game.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Soooooooooooooo what you're saying berserk scales off vit now? And again str still benefits d tanks just not as much as vit so it's still a good stat to have just not to main. Removing it off gear will change WAR big time. Vit attack will not scale like it goes now. I'm almost sure SE is nerfing the attack damage due to more health. It would be asinine to have more health with the same current damage.

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Yes, berserk and all your damage skills now scale off of VIT, 1 STR is probably going to be about the same as 1 determination from now on, you're right in that tank damage is likely going to take a hit from this patch, but phasing out STR in the future for a different stat won't change that.

The only thing getting from this is making tanking a more boring class,3.0 was the most fun I ever had in tanking experience, it was challenging an risky, but if you did it right you had a great experience.
Now I feel the challenge will go away w such high hp, since we dont sacrifice something to get something.

Hmmmm yall not hearing me. Removing strenght weakens berserk why.....because it's damage regardless the scale it's damage. Losing damage hurts berserk. Replacing it with a parry/block rate serves no purpose for WAR especially with a skill like intuition.

Two things.

VIT is effectively replacing STR as the main damage stat for tanks in 3.2. We don't know the exact ratio yet, but STR will still have some effect, just less than VIT. So that means that VIT will have less effect on damage point for point than STR does now. So any proposal to remove STR entirely is being made with the intent to simultaneously boost VIT up to roughly 100% of what STR does now. Even this is a little off for 2 reasons. There's slightly more VIT than STR on gear. You can eat food and get extra VIT, but non-tanks can't get their main stat from food.

The other thing is that STR has had no effect on Parry or Block amounts since 3.0. They are a flat 20%.

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Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

The only thing getting from this is making tanking a more boring class,3.0 was the most fun I ever had in tanking experience, it was challenging an risky, but if you did it right you had a great experience.
Now I feel the challenge will go away w such high hp, since we dont sacrifice something to get something.

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Honestly it's being forced into that WoW like trinity idea of a rpg. What made ffxiv great is now being ironed out into the normal game and game play. Eventually skills will be ironed, DF will be moot forcing you to FCs and if you care losing your outside life because yiu have to match the statics of your teams or fc to advance further. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Wouldn't STR still have a place in block strength calculation and the amount of damage parried?

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No. This went away with Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Hmmmm yall not hearing me. Removing strenght weakens berserk why.....because it's damage regardless the scale it's damage. Losing damage hurts berserk. Replacing it with a parry/block rate serves no purpose for WAR especially with a skill like intuition.

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What are you even talking about? VIT is replacing STR as our primary damage stat. How is this going to weaken Berserk?

@reckless
As of 3.2 your attack power will be predominantly based upon your VIT. Every skill that each tank has will likely be adjusted to scale from your attack power.


As of 3.2- VIT is the new str.

All SE has done is include language indicating that STR won’t be completely worthless on a tank, and this was likely done to avoid a total Sh*t storm from tanks who only had full STR or spent a bajillion gil for their pentamelds. A VERY SIMPLISTIC ANALOGY:

3.2 damage -> Full VIT 1000 dps, Full STR 800 dps, no right side gear 500 dps

“We will be changing the method for calculating the potency of physical attacks for tank roles in Patch 3.2. We’ll be making it so vitality affects the potency of physical attacks, and as a result the effect of strength on physical attack potency will be reduced.

From Patch 3.2 onwards, you’ll be safe using only vitality accessories as well as allocating everything to vitality as a tank. For everyone who is currently using strength accessories on their tanks, the damage will be lowered, so please prepare your vitality accessories ahead of time.”

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Originally Posted by Madrone

Two things.

VIT is effectively replacing STR as the main damage stat for tanks in 3.2. We don't know the exact ratio yet, but STR will still have some effect, just less than VIT. So that means that VIT will have less effect on damage point for point than STR does now. So any proposal to remove STR entirely is being made with the intent to simultaneously boost VIT up to roughly 100% of what STR does now. Even this is a little off for 2 reasons. There's slightly more VIT than STR on gear. You can eat food and get extra VIT, but non-tanks can't get their main stat from food.

The other thing is that STR has had no effect on Parry or Block amounts since 3.0. They are a flat 20%.

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As lovely as that would be tanks would be op and promote tanks to not use defensive cd at all..

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

As lovely as that would be tanks would be op and promote tanks to not use defensive cd at all..

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Looks like somebody didn't ready the Live Letter........

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Looks like somebody didn't ready the Live Letter........

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What is reading? xD

Reckless... This is from the Live Letter:

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We will be changing the method for calculating the potency of physical attacks for tank roles in Patch 3.2. We’ll be making it so vitality affects the potency of physical attacks, and as a result the effect of strength on physical attack potency will be reduced.

From Patch 3.2 onwards, you’ll be safe using only vitality accessories as well as allocating everything to vitality as a tank. For everyone who is currently using strength accessories on their tanks, the damage will be lowered, so please prepare your vitality accessories ahead of time.

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Aside from that.. I thought they changed str/dex contributions to parry/block well before 3.0.. Like back when ninja was released. I haven't looked back at the notes, but I thought it's been changed a while. /shrug

Reckless just simply has a fundamental misunderstanding of most of the abilities synergy with stats in this game, he thinks Berserk scales off STR, not attack power, Clemency off STR, not attack power, etc. he cant wrap his head around the fact that VIT will increase attack power now instead of STR.

TL;DR, stop trying to correct Reckless, he doesn't get it, he won't get it.

I don't think he doesn't get it, I think he doesn't understand what's being asked for.

Currently we have 20 VIT and 15 STR on a piece of gear which from 3.2 will be, let's say, 18 attack power. We're not saying remove that STR from that gear, we're saying that on the next gear they release, make it 28 VIT and 15 parry, which will be 19 attack power, an increase over what we had before but without using any STR, then from now on our gear just has to scale from VIT and we can have another primary stat instead of STR.

I understand what he's saying, STR will be like det still, so having it is still better than not having it (if we remove the STR from all old gear we'd lose attack power) but what you have to understand is the only reason they're not making STR completely redundant is because that would mean they'd have to rebalance all our old tank gear as they'd have to remove the STR and adjust the VIT numbers on what? 2000 pieces of gear? This way they just have to adjust the % modifier on 2 stats and then can adjust the numbers going forward.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I don't think he doesn't get it, I think he doesn't understand what's being asked for.

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Thank you Cabalabob. My whole point if strenght still adds towards damage it's still a good stat even when vit out scales it. That's what I'm saying. Just typed it very horribly. So I'll apologize for that.

STR isn't a secondary though, its present on all of our left side gear, its not like Crit or Det where you can be like "oh cool, this particular piece has this-that-the-other on it, I'll use it instead..." Its not a choice, its just kind of there, and at this point, the idea behind this thread is to remove STR, add its scaling to VIT (so that if VIT scales at .7 and STR at .3, just remove the .3 and make VIT scale at 1.0, eventually) so that we have space for another primary stat (like Parry, which should be buffed and made a primary stat so that it doesn't screw with Det, SkS, Crit, etc.).

Because currently, its not like you can choose to have a STR piece because it will always be in certain slots so you can't really gear for it like you can other secondaries where you cherry pick the pieces that have the ones you want, which is my problem in particular with what Reckless is saying. He's suggesting you can have a "STR build" when its really just an unnecessarily complicating stat at this point.

If they made VIT scale higher to compensate it would be better, since as it stands you are probably going to have to meld STR to VIT accessories which is really silly (imagine being a DPS and having your accessories not be STR capped, and having to meld additional STR to it instead of secondaries... come on....) I'm all for getting rid of STR if its just going to be a diet version of VIT that is making our AP scaling unnecessarily complicated and taking up a primary stat spot.