3 BLMs, 1 BRD and no Foe's = Sadness

Sad, true story here:

Went into a Duty Roulette Trial and got Ramuh. Party consisted of 3 black mages and 1 bard. Now, I main bard so when I see three black mages in my group, my first thought goes to putting up Foe's. So, this was my expectation with this bard.

Much to my disappointment, no Foe's was to be had. Instead, the bard decided to put up Army's Paeon when the adds popped.. Really?!?! /sigh...

My soul was destroyed a little...

Story of my life honestly

Bard is probably trolling or doesn't know which song does which ?

But anyway, you could have posted this in Tales from Duty Finder thread :)

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Originally Posted by MoonPhaseAlpha

....Instead, the bard decided to put up Army's Paeon when the adds popped.. Really?!?! /sigh...

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I had same experience so I asked the BRD we had PLD WHM BLM so who needs Paeon?
"For myself", he replied. ^^;

I'm one of those healers that likes to dps the hell out of instances to save us all some time on these repetitive runs. Every time I get a Bard that doesn't use Foe's (which is pretty often), I die a little inside. And we shouldn't have to ask for it either. It's your job. You see a caster in your party, you use Foe's... which is clearly beyond most of their comprehension and ability.

some people don't wanna use it because the cast time causes their own dps to get slightly lower.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

some people don't wanna use it because the cast time causes their own dps to get slightly lower.

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No

/charlimit

This works both ways.

1 BLM, 1 SCH, Foes on every pull, BV enhanced on bosses. No commendation. As much as forumgoers complain about BRDs not singing Foes, it wouldn't surprise me if 99% of the casters I see in DF don't even know what Foes is.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

This works both ways.

1 BLM, 1 SCH, Foes on every pull, BV enhanced on bosses. No commendation. As much as forumgoers complain about BRDs not singing Foes, it wouldn't surprise me if 99% of the casters I see in DF don't even know what Foes is.

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It does go both ways. Noticed a DPSing Scholar in a leveling roulette run, so I used Foe. Got told by the tank to turn it off because it doesn't benefit him or the other DPS.

Generally bards not singing AT ALL seems to be the norm though.

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Originally Posted by Azper

I'm one of those healers that likes to dps the hell out of instances to save us all some time on these repetitive runs. Every time I get a Bard that doesn't use Foe's (which is pretty often), I die a little inside. And we shouldn't have to ask for it either. It's your job. You see a caster in your party, you use Foe's... which is clearly beyond most of their comprehension and ability.

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Granted if it's just a WHM or AST foes should be asked for...half the time SCHs don't even dps so why waste mp when it's not making any difference...and I say that cause I've played foes for the healers before and they are dps'n like 30% of the time or not at all

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Granted if it's just a WHM or AST foes should be asked for...half the time SCHs don't even dps so why waste mp when it's not making any difference...and I say that cause I've played foes for the healers before and they are dps'n like 30% of the time or not at all

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I usually wait to see the first couple pulls if they're doing DPS or not.

Besides what are you saving your MP for? Paeon??? Pft.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

This works both ways.

1 BLM, 1 SCH, Foes on every pull, BV enhanced on bosses. No commendation.

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I'm not quite understanding where commendations come into play here. "I'm not going to get commendations, so why should I use Foe?" is horrible reasoning if that's the implication. :X For what it's worth, I will always commend the bard who uses their songs.

People looking for steady commendations should stick to healers and tanks.

I almost exclusively play Bard, and it makes me cringe when I hear stuff about this. I always put up Foes (sometimes I forget to on some smaller pulls, but I always put it up on bosses) whenever there is a BLM or SMN in my party. I will say that for whatever reason I had conditioned myself in the past to never put Foes up in dungeons whenever there wasn't a caster DPS in the party, even though WHM/AST/SCH could take advantage of it if they wanted to. Still trying to remedy that ... I almost always forget to, though.

What I want to know more is why he was using Army's Paeon ... I've never had to use AP or Mage's Ballad ever since ... what, 2.5 came out? I've never been in a situation where it was necessary, everyone's so TP and MP efficient now, especially if a Ninja's on the loose. The only place they'd have needed use anymore is in Savage (or an instance with a lot of resurrecting).

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Originally Posted by MoonPhaseAlpha

Sad, true story here:
My soul was destroyed a little...

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http://img.memecdn.com/cool-story-bro_o_1095006.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pison

What I want to know more is why he was using Army's Paeon ... I've never had to use AP or Mage's Ballad ever since ... what, 2.5 came out? I've never been in a situation where it was necessary, everyone's so TP and MP efficient now, especially if a Ninja's on the loose. The only place they'd have needed use anymore is in Savage (or an instance with a lot of resurrecting).

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Sometimes I'll use it for big AOE and I absentmindedly used Quick Nock a few too many times.
I've also used it for a few TP-starved members...so it isn't unheard of, but. Mostly those times I'm with no casters and a non-DPSing healer, thus I'm not singing anyway. (And it's never been in a boss fight, just big trash pulls). And I'll usually sing Ballad for a bit if I see a healer had to rez someone a few times and they're a bit low on MP.
People still mess up their TP and MP management in dungeons, trust me.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Sometimes I'll use it for big AOE and I absentmindedly used Quick Nock a few too many times.
I've also used it for a few TP-starved members...so it isn't unheard of, but. Mostly those times I'm with no casters and a non-DPSing healer, thus I'm not singing anyway. (And it's never been in a boss fight, just big trash pulls). And I'll usually sing Ballad for a bit if I see a healer had to rez someone a few times and they're a bit low on MP.
People still mess up their TP and MP management in dungeons, trust me.

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Pretty much this.

Foe drains mp rather quickly with or without battle voice even with 6k mp. Going to estimate really hard here but I probably get about 2 minutes with it on using Battle Voice. This is one of the main reasons when I built my Zeta I put piety into the bow to attempt to get more out of the skill. But there have been many times I had to use other songs instead of Foe, like a healer going down or a tank, gotta throw out Paeon or Ballad. So I basically utilize my mp for situations where players are mp/tp starved, since imo getting a healer back up to heal or tank back up to tank, is more important at times then that 10-20% magic resistance.

same could be said for warriors when i play nin , no slashing debuff , or when i go with nin , no trick atack at all...dont get me started on SMN that dont rez....ppl in DF go in auto mode or dont care at all.....is ramuh hard mode ....blink and u miss the kill...

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Originally Posted by Azper

I'm one of those healers that likes to dps the hell out of instances to save us all some time on these repetitive runs. Every time I get a Bard that doesn't use Foe's (which is pretty often), I die a little inside. And we shouldn't have to ask for it either. It's your job. You see a caster in your party, you use Foe's... which is clearly beyond most of their comprehension and ability.

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A healer isn't the same as a caster dps though. The bard can likely do more damage during the 3 second cast than what you alone gain from Foe.

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Went into a Duty Roulette Trial and got Ramuh. Party consisted of 3 black mages and 1 bard. Now, I main bard so when I see three black mages in my group, my first thought goes to putting up Foe's. So, this was my expectation with this bard.

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This was your first mistake.

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Originally Posted by Azper

It's your job. You see a caster in your party, you use Foe's... which is clearly beyond most of their comprehension and ability.

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No you shouldn't. However, a friendly reminder never hurt anyone one either (I'd go so far to say even a not so friendly reminder will do). Would be a much better use of energy than "dying a little," or however you put it.

Not everyone comes with the same level of omnipotence as you would prefer. I've even had healers that needed to be reminded to refresh protect (oh the scandal, right?). There was no inner torment or silent contempt, even though maintaining protect "is their job." Protect was refreshed and we moved on. Sometimes people need someone to play gadfly to get them to pay attention.

Just ask. It's really that simple. The rest is up to the bard. If they refuse, ignore, get offended at the request, or something else to spite you, then you may rush to the forum to complain.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'm not quite understanding where commendations come into play here.

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Yeah that guy makes no sense. So because there are a decent number of tanks that don't use cool down, you are upset because when you do you don't get one? That's your job. That shouldn't be a free commendation, it should be the bare minimum to be considered.

It doesn't take an incredible amount of skill to keep up Foes

Typing an auto-translate 'Foe's Requiem' into party chat is usually enough of a hint for most bards.

Was leveling BRD in main scenario roulette yesterday and had a monk question my use of Foe's when all the dps were melee/ranged. I said "it works for the SCH too..." At the time I put up Foe's the SCH was in cleric stance. At least he said "fair enough."

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Originally Posted by MoonPhaseAlpha

. Now, I main bard so when I see three black mages in my group, my first thought goes to putting up Foe's. So, this was my expectation with this bard.

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Very sad story :(

Honestly, though. Your first thought should be putting up foes regardless of your party composition - as there is always a healer in your party, there is always someone who can take advantage of it - and you don't need to save the MP for any content you are duty finding. If your healer doesn't DPS and you have all melee, I'd hold off on playing it on the next pull though ;)

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Was leveling BRD in main scenario roulette yesterday and had a monk question my use of Foe's when all the dps were melee/ranged. I said "it works for the SCH too..." At the time I put up Foe's the SCH was in cleric stance. At least he said "fair enough."

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Let's assume we get a healer in the future that can't dPS and you get all melee. Keeping up foes doesn't do anything negative so there isn't any reason to complain. Unless of course your party is for some reason always out of resources but that probably means you got worse problems elsewhere in the party

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

Let's assume we get a healer in the future that can't dPS and you get all melee. Keeping up foes doesn't do anything negative so there isn't any reason to complain. Unless of course your party is for some reason always out of resources but that probably means you got worse problems elsewhere in the party

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there are such times when you meet a non-dps healer, non magical tank (well, there is only one magical tank AoE anyway and DRK aren't really spamming it anyway, but yay dps increase) AND a monk who knows how to AoE in a dungeon. Then you're better off saving MP for Paeon on trash pulls because it will ensure a faster run overall through AoE abuse than if you stick with Foe for a non-dpsing healer.

There was another bard besides myself and they put up Army's Paean later in the fight. We were pretty much covered.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

some people don't wanna use it because the cast time causes their own dps to get slightly lower.

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Foes doesn't lower the bard's dps - only ballad and peon... and the cast time is not all that long. I'm pretty sure the output given to the SMNs/BLMs/DPSing healers more than makes up for the 1 or 2 seconds it takes to get Foes going. There's really no not to play Foes in that party set up...

In response to OP....
/cry I would have been chomping at the bit for that many BLMs...

Hell... every time I go on my Bard alt (and I played it a LOT when I broke my finger, as it was easier to adapt my change of hand placement, than high movement MNK or healing), and I see the rest of the DPS are casters, I get all excited and the first thing out of my chat box is, "Oh boy, oh boy! BLMs/casters! +_+".

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Originally Posted by Pison

What I want to know more is why he was using Army's Paeon ... I've never had to use AP or Mage's Ballad ever since ... what, 2.5 came out? I've never been in a situation where it was necessary, everyone's so TP and MP efficient now, especially if a Ninja's on the loose. The only place they'd have needed use anymore is in Savage (or an instance with a lot of resurrecting).

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I've used it when a melee or myself either a.) is spamming AoEs for a large mob and became low on TP while mob is still alive, or b.) melee was just raised and the healer didn't need the mp at the moment.
It's possible the guy was spamming AoE attacks, but that's all I've got for ideas o_oa

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Was leveling BRD in main scenario roulette yesterday and had a monk question my use of Foe's when all the dps were melee/ranged. I said "it works for the SCH too..." At the time I put up Foe's the SCH was in cleric stance. At least he said "fair enough."

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Bring a summoner with you, cast foe req, wait till the debuff is applied, have him cast miasma or bio (both are unaspected), stop singing foe req, have him try and reapply bio once the foe req debuff disappears. It will not apply because the game won't allow you to overwrite a stronger DoT with a weaker one. You can also observe the damage done to be roughly 15% higher.

Same goes for SCH, you want that Bard to sing Foe's righ at the beginning of any pull, or FR+BV at the start of any boss fight for maximum affect with any ARC job.

I tend to find one of three types of BRD when I run DF:

The Desired BRD - Knows what songs to play and when to play them (extremely rare for me to find)

The Auto Pilot BRD - Just does attacks on auto with no songs being used

The I'm 1337 BRD - Plays songs at the wrong time and refuses to listen to advice on when best to use songs

I personally prefer the first BRD, don't mind getting the second BRD, absolutely hate the third BRD. I had Neverreap the other week as WHM. Our party comp was DRK, WHM, SMN, BRD. BRD was not using songs even after repeated requests from the SMN who eventually left. New DPS shows up who was a MNK and then the BRD starts using Foes between pulls and turns it off during pulls.

On Boss fghts, BRD was using Ballad saying that I (the WHM) needed mp (I dps heavily and will allow my mp to drop but I also am capable of managing my mp once I dip below 30%). Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I let him know that I'm fine on mp and he can turn ballad off. He then proceeds to lecture me on how he always uses ballad when healer mp drops below 75% and that it is better for all involved for him to use ballad in that situation. He also told me it wasn't just for my benefit but for the DRK as well. Both the DRK and myself correct him on this wrong assumption about DRK mp regen while Darkside is up.

We get to the final boss and again he pops ballad once I dip below 75% mp and I again tell him that it isn't needed and he could turn it off and if he wanted to play a song, Foe's would be preferred as it will boost the groups dps. He refused in party chat and told me that I (the WHM) needed it. After telling him I didn't and that with ballad off he could do more damage he finally turned it off with a reply of "Fine, I'll just let you go oom and won't play ballad when you need it".

After the boss dies, he continues to lecture me on how a BRD is played and that Ballad is super important to keep up when any healer or tank dips below 75% mp. I just sighed, made a joke about him in FC chat and had all of our FC BRD's die a little inside.

As I was levelling BLM, I was paired with many BRD's, not one sang Requiem, I stopped being excited when I get paired with BRD's now.

Levelling BRD myself, I love having a caster in the party, then I can sing it and get some good mileage out of it, if I see the healer lending some DPS, I sing, what else am I gonna sing? I use Paeon between pulls if me and another melee are going nuts.

Foes Requiem is a wonderful thing, I wish DF BRD's realized this...

You guys DO understand you can ask for songs right? I mean, wouldn't hurt, the worst thing that could happen is the bard says no or ignores your request and you're in the same boat you set sail in. But I guess that would take all of the fun out of complaining incessantly on the forums about how you always get grouped with scrubs, right?

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

You guys DO understand you can ask for songs right? I mean, wouldn't hurt, the worst thing that could happen is the bard says no or ignores your request and you're in the same boat you set sail in. But I guess that would take all of the fun out of complaining incessantly on the forums about how you always get grouped with scrubs, right?

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Could ask for a song. I could expect my party members to ask for me to use Bane and Fester too, I guess. May as well start expecting the tank to ask for heals while we're at it.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Could ask for a song. I could expect my party members to ask for me to use Bane and Fester too, I guess. May as well start expecting the tank to ask for heals while we're at it.

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I see the point went over your head. The point I'm trying to make is that people need to stop bringing every minor gripe to the forums when they've literally made no effort to correct the situation when it was happening. It's like going to the coffee shop and ordering a tea, if the barista gives you coffee instead why would you quietly drive home then post on tealovers.com about how baristas are morons and messed up your order when you could have had it fixed there.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

You guys DO understand you can ask for songs right? I mean, wouldn't hurt, the worst thing that could happen is the bard says no or ignores your request and you're in the same boat you set sail in. But I guess that would take all of the fun out of complaining incessantly on the forums about how you always get grouped with scrubs, right?

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It's just it should be OBVIOUS to every BRD out there that if they are paired with SMN or BLM, it's Foe's Time.

And as for those BRDs that say they don't get comms when they are singing Foe's when with caster, I am one of those few people that comms you. As long as I'm not BEGGING for the goddamn Foe.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

I see the point went over your head. The point I'm trying to make is that people need to stop bringing every minor gripe to the forums when they've literally made no effort to correct the situation when it was happening. It's like going to the coffee shop and ordering a tea, if the barista gives you coffee instead why would you quietly drive home then post on tealovers.com about how baristas are morons and messed up your order when you could have had it fixed there.

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I don't see why you wouldn't do that. Forums are a great place to vent, share frustrations, discuss opinions and debate. This fits in nicely with that. Making the assumption that no one ever asks for Foe's is also a bit faulty. I'm not sure you nor I could state that every person who has complained about lack of Foes on this thread has never asked for it.

Had a bard start the fight with Army's Paeon once.

WHY?

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

I see the point went over your head. The point I'm trying to make is that people need to stop bringing every minor gripe to the forums when they've literally made no effort to correct the situation when it was happening. It's like going to the coffee shop and ordering a tea, if the barista gives you coffee instead why would you quietly drive home then post on tealovers.com about how baristas are morons and messed up your order when you could have had it fixed there.

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I just wanted to point out that if people had the basic etiquette on a MMO (aka, reading one's skills to know what they do, and behaving like a civilized human and not like a 8 yo kid who thinks you have to trash someone who doesn't agree with you), 99% of the minor gripes brought onto the forums wouldn't ever happen.

But in these days, you can't even expect that minimum anymore

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I don't see why you wouldn't do that. Forums are a great place to vent, share frustrations, discuss opinions and debate. This fits in nicely with that. Making the assumption that no one ever asks for Foe's is also a bit faulty. I'm not sure you nor I could state that every person who has complained about lack of Foes on this thread has never asked for it.

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It reeks of social ineptitude and the inability to handle minor communication with another human beings, I can't even say conflict because chances are the bard would have just said "ok" or "sorry" and turned it on. I didn't say everyone who posted here never asked but it's clear that the OP didn't and do we really need a whine thread every 5 minutes about these things? Especially when there have been several that this could have been posted in?