Should i just stop DPSing in dungeons?

So.. lately it just seems when ever you try to learn a tank/healer/dps something new they ALWAYS take it the wrong way.

Just did a vault run as a WHM my GF was on nin.

Dungeon started out fine, We said hi etc. First pull, i holy -> aero 3 -> holy. i see i'm getting hate, i stop my dps. But wait, the tank doesn't even try to get it back, so instead of healing him i ended up healing my self. 15 seconds in, Still no flashes or attempts to get hate off, I asked him. can you use flash please. Doesn't use flash. doesn't say a single thing.

Next few pulls he doesn't even use CDs well, barely. Boss fight, Not one single cooldown was used besides sheltron + Divine Veil
Kinda got annoyed but didn't say a thing decided i just wanted to ride the dungeon out and probably never see him again.
Next pull he left the two last mobs alone which i found strange so i just got em(Blame it on me)

Ran back with the mobs to him, Pre-cast holy as they came in it went off, Aero 3-> Holy again. Suprise suprise he did not flash. I died, and well yeah.. dead healer equals dead party usually.

Now i asked him again, for the love of god please use flash, You can't hold hate without it as a PLD. He was already losing hate to my GF prior to it.

Then i got blamed because i shouldn't DPS and my equipment sucked.
Well in all honesty, My equipment was not a perfect 10/10. But then again, i had not a single problem DPSing+Healing up till this point, and the only problem was him not holding hate nor even trying. And then started to blame me. Well at this point my other half got mad and dismissed him, Can't blame her. Then his friend called me a douche and said i was a bad healer blablabla.

New tank came in we killed the first group of mobs just fine(He was in DPS stance) All went fine but this one lost hate too. Didn't wanna get the same thing started so i ignored it. The friend DPS that was still there just stood AFK. He went to pull the 2 big mobs with the Justice Cleave attacks. He ate them both without any CDs in DPS stance.. At this point i just kinda gave up. We kicked the AFK and left, requeued and got a PLD who used flash *Praise the lord! Oh lord!* And finished the dungeon without one single issue, And this tank was NEW to the dungeon, unlike the other two i had.

This is the 3rd tank in a short time that just completely ignored his duties as a tank in result of me DPSing. I already had a few tanks who ignored aoes(just ate em) and bluntly said, You shouldn't be DPSing you're wasting your MP(Keep in mind they never died nor had to wait for my MP to come back)

Now my question is, Should i as a healer just not DPS at all ? Should i just sit there, Cast regen skills top you up and pick my nose or something? what is the GD issue with me DEALING DMG, increasing the speed things die, And keeping you alive!

TLDR.

What is so wrong with a healer DPSing as long as there is no one dropping on the floor as a result, Besides the bad guys..

You will meet some people that are so sore its untrue as in, you think they had a mental problem or something. I had today a healer in VA today and he said something like "Be good if people could dodge" and I replied with "oh yeah I'll just ninja dodge to the left or right" and he left shortly afterwards.
1. We didn't wipe in the 1st boss
2. the dive bomb marker person didn't move away so of course people got hit.
3. 2 people in our party died?

So yeah that was my salt for today just need some vinegar.

Now in reply to you answer. Lol I find it a waste of MP if you have plenty left over, moderation is the key and if you can DPS and keep party alive that's MP well managed.

so in short, play as you want to play and don't let not so good tanks hold you back. I mean if he wasn't flashing your healing would have grab aggro anyway so what else did he expect you to do?

You just need to be able to adjust to all different types of tanks. Terrible tank and cant hold hate? Focus on healing him more. Awesome tank who uses cool downs and you notice he doesnt need heals as much? DPS as much as you feel comfortable with. Just gotta be dynamic about it, and learn to go with the flow. Also, as you probably know at this point in life, some people are just assholes. No fixing that.

Maintank (even paladin!) here and I beg you to not stop dps'ing! You were doing fine - a level 57 tank should have learned by now how to tank. If he didnt, its his fault and his fault alone - sadly its you problem after all but one that should be solved with a votekick after 2 or 3 attemtempts to explain to that guy what he should be doing (and yes, thats okay, SE said so themselves - and yes, I consider it harrassment if someone doesnt perform at least the minimum of their class, which would - for a paladin - be: Flash your soul out!).

It is true that you have to make adjustments to your own playstyle depending on the group - new tank? Might watch out to heal him a bit more since he doesnt know the dungeon. "Bad" gear? No CDs? Maybe even said something like "Hey, I'm a bit rusty"? - Probadly not a good idea to go full deeps on the first pull.
But as long as you feel confident with healing and dpsing - please, please go for it!

...if been running some libarys lately to get my DRK to 60 and I met scholars that were only casting heals, mostly physick. It made me cry. Healing me, while I got 90% of my HP left. While I was using CDs and couldnt really use my self-healing skills (which are pretty nice on DRK) because as soon as I got a scratch the healer would cast heals on me - instead of throwing around some DOTs... didnt said anything though because they were doing the minimum of their job and therefor "okay" - but a tank who doesnt even try to hold hate? Nope, not your fault.

Some tanks have the attitude of "if you take hate you get to tank it", which is a bit ridiculous if they expect you to stop even healing. Then again, some others are just really bad.

Adjust to the party. If the tank is undergeared and struggling, but seems to be making an honest effort and does respond to advice? If he can't handle enmity from holy spam, I won't do it.

Your tank, however... vote dismiss is there for a reason.

I'm curious what your DPS was doing that you pulled hate over them?

@Martin Exactly. couldn't agree more i just don't see the point on sitting 75-100% MP and just waiting till i can fire off a cure or a regen. i rather Dot some mobs or spam some holy!

@Acyd, I would agree to a point. Yes, as a healer,tank or dps. You will have to adjust to other people at times, But when some person just doesn't bother(In this case the tank) to hold aggro, There is not much i can do. Cause its either the DPS or me will get hate, When the DPS get hate it results me in healing them more as they take more DMG resulting in more hate and everyone just gets a mob which shouldn't be the case. Espescially not for a 58 tank.

@ Vidu Mhm! The kind of tank i like! And indeed, if this guy would've said just one sentence, or just even ask me not to DPS. I'm so fine with that. I just DPS cause i don't want to sit still and i wanna carry my weight. But he didn't sadly.
And scholars that don't dps make me cringe! i love playing on my sch and DPSing. i know my fairy will do most of the healing and i can just go full out DPS mode 9/10 times in dungeons. Love it!

@Ris This is true. But he didn't even put in an effort to build hate up on anything, besides the ONE single mob he was attacking.

@Critical If you have ever played PLD or even remotely looked at someone playing it, If this person does not rotate his skill set and use flash atleast a few times, he's not gonna hold hate against jobs with a AoE skill set(For example holy)
It was not even remotely hard to pull of hate cause he didn't bother with flash nor did he even use CoS....

And i'm honestly fine with people who are not as good or maybe even rusty or what ever the excuse is. The problem is simply, when one person does not even make an attempt to do his job and just expects a free ride through the dungeon.
Which as a tank is gonna be very difficult, And then when gets spoken to, Even in a civil matter he gets angry and blames it on me. Now i might have been DPSing, but that was not the reason we wiped. The reason was very simple, Tank doesn't hold hate. Mobs go berserk on everyone besides the tank.

Yes you should DPS. So should the tank attempt. As long as nothing goes wrong the entire party should be going for maximum combined dps to get the shitty grind SE excuses as a "dungeon" over with as quickly as possible and let everyone move on with their lives.

Keep on doing what you do OP. People have to learn eventually, and hopefully, when said person gets vote dismissed, they might do some reflection on themselves and see what they were doing wrong, or talk to a FC mate about how to better play their class/job. But I doubt it, people are quick to anger and point at others for their own shortcomings. Don't stress it.

I feel kinda bad if my healer doesn't DPS, makes me think I'm not mitigating damage well enough so they feel unsave. I always like when a healer is DPSing... UNLESS I'm not geared as well as the rest of the party (never undergeared though) and they see I'm struggeling a bit, in that case please stop for a little while or/and pop Shroud of Saints.

I'd come back on the equipment sucked note and say, if my DPS is negligible and my eq sucks, why am I ripping hate off you? (I mean, obviously you knew why).

Don't stop DPSing. Don't lower your skill level just because you're paired with idiots.

I'd recommend adjusting to the party. I always give it at least a pull (if it's big) or two (if they're smaller) to gauge how the winds are going to go before I decide if I will be safe DPSing with the tank.

As a PLD alt I say DPS away. However...there are some healer out there that makes tanking a scary job cause they'll be dpsing and healing when the tanks low on hp, that split second can be life of death. Please, as long as you do everything in moderation.

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Originally Posted by B0YRaNmA

As a PLD alt I say DPS away. However...there are some healer out there that makes tanking a scary job cause they'll be dpsing and healing when the tanks low on hp, that split second can be life of death. Please, as long as you do everything in moderation.

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Benediction is my "watch this" button. :D

As a tank main, and someone with all three healing jobs at 60, please don't let a few bad tanks discourage you from dpsing. If you're keeping your party alive and you're able to dps as well, you're doing an awesome job. Keep up the good work. If the tanks are letting you rip hate, they're not good tanks.

I'd recommend joining some linkshells with mixed jobs so that you can call on some good tanks to join you when the party goes south. I'm personally always happy to join a party when I'm able if they need a hand.

I must admit, I'm one of those people who seldom use cooldowns on bosses and saves them all for those unexpected incidents where everything suddenly goes south and I need to keep myself going for a while. That, and saving them for the next group pulls.

In any case, I always appreciate when healers help out with the dps. At first I thought that maybe your tank was just taking it out on you for pulling hate at the start by being "aggressive" and not giving him a chance to establish enmity, but considering how he never seemed to use Flash anywhere else, I guess not. Getting people who queue together can sometimes be really annoying as the other person will likely assume the "I am his friend so I will defend him by default because he is definitely right" position and they only reinforce each other into a position where they cannot possibly fathom that they just might be wrong.

Anyways, by the sounds of it I think you do this already, but all I would say is that if a tank is struggling to keep enmity for any reason whatsoever then don't make it even more difficult for them by dps'ing, but otherwise help out by all means. I'm sure most people welcome it and you are just getting a bit unlucky at the moment.

OP I think saying those things made the situation worse. If he doesn't pop any CDs how do you manage to get cleric stance on and do DPS? If there are no CDs or flash then you should be 99% healing ><.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

@Critical If you have ever played PLD or even remotely looked at someone playing it, If this person does not rotate his skill set and use flash atleast a few times, he's not gonna hold hate against jobs with a AoE skill set(For example holy)

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You're right OP. My PLD ilvl is low, only 190 but my enmity has never been got ripped by any classes except other tanks who far overgeared me. There's nothing wrong with PLD's threat. I'm still wondering why people say that and flash generates low enmity, I only use 2 flashes and 1 circle of scorn and those are enough to hold enmity even from overgeared SMNs and BLMs who aoe. I only wear 2 str accs too.

That tank is probably levelling using FATEs from the very beginning or probably a troll.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

OP I think saying those things made the situation worse. If he doesn't pop any CDs how do you manage to get cleric stance on and do DPS? If there are no CDs or flash then you should be 99% healing ><.

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It's pretty easy to keep a tank up at the beginning of a pull as whm, you have three HoTs you can use. And when the first holy stuns all the mobs it buys you even more time. An aero 3 and 3 or 4 holys and an assize with a bad tank will get the healer killed, not the tank

OP once the tank starts loosing hate and doesn't bother getting it back I just become a Netflix and chill kind of healer lol and just heal bit by bit cause I don't have to patients for tanks to be learning their role that far into the game...

I usually don't say anything if they don't pop CDs Or generate hate to well cause what I have learned for our glorious community is no one likes to be told what to do or how to do something even if it's constructive criticism...

You have to ask yourself what is more important: Finishing the dungeon with as little trouble as possible, or proving you are right and the other guy is wrong.

I choose the former. I adjust to the group and tank. I don't DPS early, until I get a feel for whether or not the tank is handling things well.

The bottom line is that a healer CAN DPS, so if they want to add it in there as part of their package they SHOULD. But to be bullheaded about it isn't really getting me what I want. I want to finish the dungeon as smoothly as we can.

If your priority is showing up another player in a video game, then by all means feel free to do that. And then your level of aggravation can drive you to a forum to complain about them. Not sure why you'd want to waste your time doing that, but different strokes for different folks.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

You have to ask yourself what is more important: Finishing the dungeon with as little trouble as possible, or proving you are right and the other guy is wrong.

I choose the former. I adjust to the group and tank. I don't DPS early, until I get a feel for whether or not the tank is handling things well.

The bottom line is that a healer CAN DPS, so if they want to add it in there as part of their package they SHOULD. But to be bullheaded about it isn't really getting me what I want. I want to finish the dungeon as smoothly as we can.

If your priority is showing up another player in a video game, then by all means feel free to do that. And then your level of aggravation can drive you to a forum to complain about them. Not sure why you'd want to waste your time doing that, but different strokes for different folks.

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This is assuming that by continuing to DPS you will make the party wipe. You can easily pull threat and still DPS, keep yourself alive, stay in melee range for the tank, and kill the pack faster.

Our healer yesterday didn't DPS at all in arboretum ;_;
Please DPS sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This is assuming that by continuing to DPS you will make the party wipe. You can easily pull threat and still DPS, keep yourself alive, stay in melee range for the tank, and kill the pack faster.

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This is why I suggest feeling out the group as you go along.

Especially if you don't know them. But if you have a tank that isn't well-geared or on top of his game? Then you are just banging your stubborn head against a wall by trying to DPS on top of heals.

Which, as I point out, is entirely your decision to make. Meanwhile, I'm finished with the dungeon and back in the instaqueue healing another one. YMMV.

BTW, I had the same experiences with the DF in WoW. I always play healers or tanks. And I've always found it best to adapt TO my PUG instead of expecting it to adapt to me. Besides, if I feel I am a *good* player-- then I can make that work much more easily than expecting the other players to do it for me.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

It's pretty easy to keep a tank up at the beginning of a pull as whm, you have three HoTs you can use. And when the first holy stuns all the mobs it buys you even more time. An aero 3 and 3 or 4 holys and an assize with a bad tank will get the healer killed, not the tank

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If the tank is not popping any CDs it is not easy to switch to Cleric and DPS with the 5 second CD on Cleric...

If your tank knows what he is doing, if you know what you are doing, you both know how to play your classes, then dps, but never forget that a healers main responsibility is to heal. The dps should always be seen as an added bonus to the group and not a must, this also goes for tanks. Focus on your main responsibility first and worry about your added utility after the fact, using it when you see that the group allows you to.

And never ever forget that a pug is still a pug, take it easy during the first pull and see what the group is made of. There are after all tanks who can`t tank, healer who can`t heal, and yes even dps who seems to have problems figuring out which part of their weapon they should hit the mob with. Always go into a pug with low expectations and celebrate every single time you end up with a great group.

i think everyone has good solid valid points. And i agree, If the tank isn't able to keep hate for what ever reason. Don't DPS cause indeed, it will slow down the run.
But with the runs i had the tanks blatantly refused to use flash or what ever they need to do to take AoE enmity. And then it crosses the line from not being able to hold hate to, not even trying to.

And even with the worst of tanks that don't pop CD are undergeared BUT they still use stuff to atleast maintain(or try) aggro i don't think there was ever a issue with me dpsing.
Cause if i see i get to much hate or he is not able to keep up with me, i'll slow down. And even if i'm not able to DPS all the time, the tank is still trying(<- Key word which is important for me) to hold hate.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

This is why I suggest feeling out the group as you go along.

Especially if you don't know them. But if you have a tank that isn't well-geared or on top of his game? Then you are just banging your stubborn head against a wall by trying to DPS on top of heals.

Which, as I point out, is entirely your decision to make. Meanwhile, I'm finished with the dungeon and back in the instaqueue healing another one. YMMV.

BTW, I had the same experiences with the DF in WoW. I always play healers or tanks. And I've always found it best to adapt TO my PUG instead of expecting it to adapt to me. Besides, if I feel I am a *good* player-- then I can make that work much more easily than expecting the other players to do it for me.

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I am not sure why you are set on calling me stubborn, but whatever. I am not going to play crappy because I am with crappy players, I'll continue to keep the team alive and output as much DPS as I am able within that context.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

If the tank isn't able to keep hate for what ever reason. Don't DPS cause indeed, it will slow down the run.

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This is just incorrect. Lowering team DPS never results in a faster run.

IF you are unable to keep yourself alive when the tank loses hate, and you wipe, then sure. Though, it's not hard to just keep yourself alive while you DPS.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

Regardless of whether or not it slows down the run, it's very obnoxious to make the run deliberately more difficult for a Tank that's learning and/or struggling because " *scoff* I don't really need you that much *scoff* ". It's quite clear that some Tanks despise that behaviour too and just run with the "You can tank it then" mentality out of sheer annoyance. It's not unlike those players who decide to dictate for the Tank just how many mobs he shall pull at any one time by grabbing them themselves and forcing the tank out of their comfort zone by making them hold more than they had intended.

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I am sorry that you feel that way. I've never had a tank complain about my behaviour as a DPS or a healer. I generally make the runs as smooth as I can for everyone involved, including the tank, while also killing things as quickly as I can. Sometimes this means I am holding hate, sometimes it doesn't.

Anyway, it sucks that it seems so many of you play with such horrid players, and/or are horrid players yourself. This is why it's great they allow us to queue in to expert with friends.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I am not sure why you are set on calling me stubborn, but whatever. I am not going to play crappy because I am with crappy players, I'll continue to keep the team alive and output as much DPS as I am able within that context.



This is just incorrect. Lowering team DPS never results in a faster run.

IF you are unable to keep yourself alive when the tank loses hate, and you wipe, then sure. Though, it's not hard to just keep yourself alive while you DPS.

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Regardless of whether or not it slows down the run, it's very obnoxious to make the run deliberately more difficult for a Tank that's learning and/or struggling because " *scoff* I don't really need you that much *scoff* ". It's quite clear that some Tanks despise that behaviour too and just run with the "You can tank it then" mentality out of sheer annoyance. It's not unlike those players who decide to dictate for the Tank just how many mobs he shall pull at any one time by grabbing them themselves and forcing the tank out of their comfort zone by making them hold more than they had intended.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

Regardless of whether or not it slows down the run, it's very obnoxious to make the run deliberately more difficult for a Tank that's learning and/or struggling because " *scoff* I don't really need you that much *scoff* ". It's quite clear that some Tanks despise that behaviour too and just run with the "You can tank it then" mentality out of sheer annoyance. It's not unlike those players who decide to dictate for the Tank just how many mobs he shall pull at any one time by grabbing them themselves and forcing the tank out of their comfort zone by making them hold more than they had intended.

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If a tank is still learning how to hold aggro on multiple targets by the time they reach the Vault, perhaps they're just not cut out to be a tank?
Flash (lvl 8), Overpower (lvl 12), Unleash (lvl 30) are all AoE abilities that are learned very early on, abilities that a tank should already know about by the time they reach 57, or even any level 50+ content.

@Kaurie,

I would love to get you in my expert runs one day xD Honestly. If i do the pulls i usually do, and you get hate on all of em, i would be impressed if you would keep yourself alive long enough for the DPS to kill them, And ontop you DPS ofcourse.

@Nez, Thats what i'm talking about. Flash & Overpower is something they should've used since their early careers as a tank. And i can't imagine they had a easy way to 50+ if they never use those skills in dungeons. Or hell, even fates with alot of mobs i love to use those skills.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

If a tank is still learning how to hold aggro on multiple targets by the time they reach the Vault, perhaps they're just not cut out to be a tank?
Flash (lvl 8), Overpower (lvl 12), Unleash (lvl 30) are all AoE abilities that are learned very early on, abilities that a tank should already know about by the time they reach 57, or even any level 50+ content.

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In the simplistic sense yes, but not everyone picks up on a class as quickly as others. The Vault is very late content, you're right, but they're still in the midst of learning new skills and perhaps trying to find ways to weave them into their old routine and understand how they work, when best to use them, what their damage tolerances are respective to their current gear and skill level, as well and figuring out if they can pull one group or two, or even three. Not even mentioning people who took a break from the game or Tanking in general, or like my friend - who Fate Grinded all the way to 50 - have a very simplistic understanding of Tanking(and Warrior) in general and are only now trying to get into it. Add to that people who are running dungeons for the first time and are partied up with people who know exactly what comes next and just so happen to out-gear them severely... then it's really not so unreasonable to expect potential enmity issues. Such cases are probably few and far between but they certainly must exist judging from the stories you read.

Aside from that, even assuming that they don't have any of those excuses and are simply not that "good" at that role - or perhaps any role for that matter - and prefer a slower pace that they can more easily keep track of, is that really so bad? I prefer faster runs myself in general of course, but if we're to assume that the Tank in question is struggling, bad or not, is there really any excuse to give them a hard time about it? It's not like they are trying to make a very casual and unprepared go at Raid content or anything.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

In the simplistic sense yes, but not everyone picks up on a class as quickly as others.

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PLEASE. READ. YOUR. SKILLS. Some may be vauge descriptions, but at least its something.

Or the player might be not the character's owner and never tank before or he was just simply trying to piss people off. Who knows.

just laugh it off.... seriously just laugh until your belly hurts... and keep on doing what you are doing. As long as the tank and group stays alive then I don't care what the healer does... you could just stand there and dig in your butt for all I care.... as long we complete the dungeon then by all means dance stance away.

I just had a WHM who was asking the Bard for Foe Requiem... and it was awesome.

DPS the crap out of things man. I don't care how low I get as long as I don't die, and good luck getting hate from me. If any DPS actually makes me worry about threat, they usually get my com. If a healer that wasn't spamming overhealing AoEs stole threat, I think I'd just log off and reconsider my life.

Healers should absolutely dps. Unless they are new to the dungeon and are being cautious because they don't know what to expect, there is no reason for them not to dps. OP, sounds like you just got some bad tanks; ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I'd come back on the equipment sucked note and say, if my DPS is negligible and my eq sucks, why am I ripping hate off you? (I mean, obviously you knew why).

Don't stop DPSing. Don't lower your skill level just because you're paired with idiots.

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Ah yes, those moments were 3 terrible players team up on the skilled player who is making a suggestion to make the run more efficient. Actually happened to me 12hours ago.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

What is so wrong with a healer DPSing as long as there is no one dropping on the floor as a result, Besides the bad guys..

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here have a read through this thread :rolleyes: