Tank Anima Weapons Builds.

Looking at the new Anima weapons, there are questions I want to ask of the Tanking community concerning the utility of the Anima weapons over:

• 1. traditional Eso purchases
  
  
• 2.Thordan Ex drops,
  
  or (for the eventual time when someone out there actually completes the grind for the Anima 210 weapon)
  
  
• 3. Gordian/Savage Weapons.

The questions for us to consider are:

• 1. Are the stats on your Anima (at the moment, this will be lvl 200 for most of us) worth it compared to the Eso purchased weapon?
  
  By this, I do not mean "is it worth the grind?" There are plenty of other threads over in the "Quest" Forums asking this question, and you can head over there if you want to pitch in. What I mean is: Is it worth actually using over your Eso weapon?
  
  For me, unless I'm missing something, the answer for Pld's would be "no." The stat breakdown of the Awoken weapon is actually worse than the Antiquated weapon. Awoken boosts Crit and Skill Speed (cuz' Pld's weren't burning their Tp fast enough, apparently) over Det and Parry. That means emphasizing burst dmg and speed over defense and overall attack strength... Given that Pld's are experts at steady Dps with zero burst capabilities, this seems to be a rather odd allocation... Even at the 210 lvl, the 205 Thordan Ex weapon/Shield seem to be the better choice for stat allocation.
  
  
• 2. What builds, if any, would be specifically tailored for, or advantageous to, the Anima weapons?
  
  This is more of an end-game, raider/progression player question, and I don't expect too many answers for it (because I don't expect there are many answers for it). The idea, though, is if the new Anima weapons have prompted any players who have adopted them to reconsider their current Stats and Accessories.
  
  For example, if I were actually using the Anima weapon on Pld, I might consider swapping out as much Skill Speed and Crit for as much Str, Det, and Acc as possible to try and counter the Tp consumption and get as much bang for my buck out of those Crits that I possibly can.
  
  
• 3. Lastly (and this one is a bit out there), given that the Anima weapons are the first implementation of an ongoing Quest that will likely continue for the entire expansion, are there any hints in the stat allocations of the weapons that might shed some light on the supposed changes SE is going to eventually bring to Tank Dmg scaling?
  
  This is a theory question and would be pure speculation for anyone who might try to take a stab at answering it. Further, given that the original Zodiac relics eventually moved out of pre-established secondary stats into custom stats, it's entirely possible that SE will follow the same path here. Meaning that the original stats might mean absolutely nothing, because they knew we'd all change them eventually. Regardless, it might make for some interesting discussions, so I figured I'd throw it in.

All 3 tanking weapons are on the table here (I only specified Pld because it's my main). What are your experiences with the Anima stats so far? Are they useful to you? Can you see them being useful to you in the future? Or is it just a fancy glamour/novelty item?

I wouldn't say that the stats are what they are right now through some sort of cosmic purpose. The fact of the matter is that there were very few spreads to put on this relic in the first place. Take a look:

PLD Has

Gordian - Crit/Det
Eso - Det/Parry

DRK Has

Gordian - Det/Parry
Eso - Crit/SS

WAR Has

Gordian - Det/SS
Eso - Crit/Parry

Pre Relic available weapons for every tank are one weapon with Parry and one without. Judging from the relics, it looks like they prefer to leave just one weapon having Parry. The Relics have the stats they have simply because SE didn't want to implement two weapons with the exact same stats. PLD could only be Crit/SS or Det/SS. DRK could only be Crit/Det or Det/SS. WAR could only be Crit/Det or Crit/SS. So they gave each of them what would be best for damage from those. Paladins win out with Crit because they attack often enough for rates to normalize quickly. Warriors and Dark Knights get Crit/Det because that's still just the best. All of the DPS who were shafted by relic choices got whacked because there was only a single choice of stat spread on the relic: whichever one the Gordian or Eso weapon didn't have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

Take a look ... Pre Relic available weapons for every tank are one weapon with Parry and one without. Judging from the relics, it looks like they prefer to leave just one weapon having Parry. The Relics have the stats they have simply because SE didn't want to implement two weapons with the exact same stats.

---

You missed the Thordan Weapons!

Seriously though, the Sword of the Heavens also has a Crit/Det mix (albeit at a slightly lower value), so SE is already operating with duplicate stats across different end game weapons. There is a 5 item level difference, but it's not really a huge difference all things considered. Further, that Det/Crit mix does, in my opinion, put the ilvl 205 Sword of the Heavens above the ilvl 210 Relic. It's nice that the auto-attacks advantage Pld Dps when it comes to Crit. I don't really think it is the "best" dps option for Pld. Frequency in auto attacks is nice, but the drop in attack power nerfs the baseline. Also, I don't think putting faith in RNGsus for Dps (especially on the job that already lags behind it's peers) is not ideal if you compare it to a consistent increase in output. Plus, with the increase in SS, a Pld is likely to run dry faster, nerfing their Dps straight down to 0 when they have nothing left (which, admittedly, is only really a problem in fights like A4, where you have almost 100% uptime as MT) Given the alternative, it just seems like a strange choice to me.

As you said, they could have just as easily gone DET/SS (if they absolutely had to stick with SS) for a more consistent Dps output. The reason I find it an odd choice is because this seems to be what Pld's are designed for. They lack of any notable burst skills like Fell Cleave/IB or Carve and Spit/Reprisal... That is, unless they plan on buffing Spirits within sometime in the near future, but I hardly expect anything like this in the future considering they crippled Shield Swipe when they took it off the GCD (it would seem that SE does not want Pld Dps anywhere but down, which is fine... if they would just address that enmity issue...). That being said, I suppose it does vary depending on how the stats scale. If Crit has a higher scaling than Det, than it might make a notable difference. I'm willing to give it a test run or two, but given the overall dip in Pld stats when actually equipping the weapon I'm not expecting it to be all that different (if not outright worse) than the Antiquated weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

You missed the Thordan Weapons!

---

It is true that I did not regard the Thordan Weapons, but that is because I was strictly speaking of Item Level 210 weapons. If we narrow things down to that then you will find that no job has duplicate stat spreads.

That aside, Crit does in fact weigh higher than Det for Paladins. When it comes to the Sword, highest to lowest damage order is Gordian(Crit/Det) -> Relic(Crit/SS) -> Esoteric(Det/Parry).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

snip

---

Just for completions sake, because PLD has to have a shield...

Gordian Blade - Crit/Det
Gordian Shield - Parry/SS

Hauteclaire(Eso) - Parry/Det
Prytwen(Eso) - Crit/SS

Almace(Relic3.0) - Crit/SS
Ancile(Relic3.0) - Parry/Det

Just looking at those, I've made the guess that, at i210:
Gordian Blade >= Almace > Hauteclaire
Prytwen > Ancile >= Gordian Shield

Obviously SS v Det can be tossed either way, but what I lurk and read on the forums pretty much the view would be the above.

If we want to go for maximum completion(tm) on the Shields, we should also include their type. Ancile and Prytwen are Kite Shields while Gordian is a Tower Shield. Given that a Paladin not only relies more on Blocks in 3.X but has an increased ability to perform them, a Tower Shield is measurably more useful for reducing big hits than a Kite Shield at the moment. This can lead players to prefer the Gordian Shield even if it has undesirable secondaries.

I think PLD's shields are really the only pieces that have any wiggle room - for example, if you have the axe from A4S you shouldn't go out of your way for the Anima when the gains are very minimal. However, with the shield you can go for more balanced blocking (better for, say, A2S or dungeons) or a tower shield (better for fights with physical tank busters that can be Sheltron'd or small physical bursts phases in the case of Bulwark).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

If we want to go for maximum completion(tm) on the Shields, we should also include their type.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

with the shield you can go for more balanced blocking (better for, say, A2S or dungeons) or a tower shield (better for fights with physical tank busters that can be Sheltron'd or small physical bursts phases in the case of Bulwark).

---

I agree with Spooky here. The BiS (so to speak) might change depending on the situation for Pld's. Tanking a Raid or Trial that requires planned mitigation would seem to make the most out of a higher block strength using Shelltron, but in dungeons a higher frequency of blocks rather than overall block strength might be more advantageous, since the number of incoming hits multiplies with each additional mob being tanked. It's an interesting dynamic that only Pld's seem to have to deal with.

When it comes to the sword, however, there seems to be only one clear choice, which is a shame considering Pld's traditionally did have 2 different sword types available to them (curved or straight). Unlike the shield types, though, the differences between the two types of swords does not seem to make as dramatic a difference. Also, SE seems to have been phasing out curved swords of late. The last 3 (4 if you count the antiquated version) Pld Swords have all been straight. The last curved blade we've seen is the Law weapon.

I'm also still a little apprehensive about the value of Crit over Det for Pld. I've never been a fan of RnG based stats, so I am admittedly biased, but does anyone know how the dmg numbers actually work out for the two stats? I'd be curious to see an actual breakdown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think PLD's shields are really the only pieces that have any wiggle room - for example, if you have the axe from A4S you shouldn't go out of your way for the Anima when the gains are very minimal. However, with the shield you can go for more balanced blocking (better for, say, A2S or dungeons) or a tower shield (better for fights with physical tank busters that can be Sheltron'd or small physical bursts phases in the case of Bulwark).

---

Unfortunately they made the anima shield yet another kite so if you can already get a Prytwen or Gordian you still have no reason to go for it. Had they made it a buckler things might be different.

It's really a shame SE didn't do anything unique with these weapons. Even just putting Accuracy on them could make them a good pickup.

SE changed all the weapons in 3.0 to omit the accuracy stat. They did this to ensure an upgraded weapon can always be used since you aren't hindered by accuracy issues. This also gives weapons a much more even weight, and is probably the best change they've made to stat balance in 3.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiston

SE changed all the weapons in 3.0 to omit the accuracy stat. They did this to ensure an upgraded weapon can always be used since you aren't hindered by accuracy issues. This also gives weapons a much more even weight, and is probably the best change they've made to stat balance in 3.0

---

That makes sense. Though, I have to admit that I was actually expecting an Accuracy build to be on some of them. SE released the Relic at an odd time. 3.2 should be coming up sometime in the near future (and will likely make the new relics obsolete before or shortly after people actually get them, but I digress). With 3.2 I'm assuming we can count on new dungeons and the next installment of Alexander, so I was kind of assuming that the Accuracy cap would increase similar to the way it did with each new set of the Coils. That kind of thing would have justified additional Accuracy on the weapons. Though, they can just as easily accommodate this with new gear, so either way it's fine.

Except most likely at some point the stats will be customizable. The only difference with this relic wave is they skipped the zenith type quests, and went straight to the atma grind (for those without zeta).

Not really sure why you want so much accuracy. The eso armor has so much acc, and ShO gives a small acc boost. If anything we are almost overgeared with accuracy. The biggest negative of having sks on the weapon, is the fact pld already has tp issues (specifically if you OT). Though, it is a great way to up goring blades DOT dmg.

Det is really scaled back ever since the HW nerf to it, which really screwed up plds white dmg (aka auto attacks that account for 22%+ of your total dmg). Especially if you use SwO.

Don't know about you, but pre hw in coil I used food to hit the acc requirement. You could technically stack all acc and use crit/det food, but the acc caps really aren't that high in hw. In the future you could be right, but from the current scaling acc seems to be overkill. Don't forget in 3.2 we'll be able to meld secondary stats to raid gear, which will help balance out inconsistencies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyphon

Not really sure why you want so much accuracy.

---

Oh, it's not that I want accuracy on the weapon. It's just that I was surprised that none of them have it, because I'm expecting Alexander Content to follow the same trend as Coils and raise the Acc cap with each new implementation. Given that the Anima should, in theory, breach the gap to 3.2 content I was just expecting that some of them would have Acc. Unless they come out with some pretty dramatic changes in gear stat allocation with the next patch, I'm assuming that we can take the lack of Acc on current relics as a hint that the Acc cap is going to continue to be a non-issue for future content (at least in the immediate future).

I'm was, kind of, in the same boat as you. My Zeta was a Det/Crit mix, so Acc was always a food thing... though I didn't find it overly necessary given that all the Ironworks Gear had a lot of Acc on it (similar to the Eso gear).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

I'm assuming that we can take the lack of Acc on current relics as a hint that the Acc cap is going to continue to be a non-issue for future content (at least in the immediate future).

---

I wouldn't take it as anything more than SE holding up their end the deal with no more accuracy on weapons xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I wouldn't take it as anything more than SE holding up their end the deal with no more accuracy on weapons xD

---

Wait... Which deal?

SE made quite a few promises about the new Relic (back during the Pre-HW hype days), and I'm pretty sure they broke every single one of theme except the promise that you could exchange your Zeta to skip a step.

If you want to assume that weapons not having accuracy is an indication of future design for content then that's your own prerogative. Since they did specifically state they aren't going to make weapons with accuracy anymore, for a reason totally unrelated to accuracy requirements no less, then, until proven otherwise, I think it's safe to say they are just "holding up" their end of the deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

If you want to assume that weapons not having accuracy is an indication of future design for content then that's your own prerogative. Since they did specifically state they aren't going to make weapons with accuracy anymore, for a reason totally unrelated to accuracy requirements no less, then, until proven otherwise, I think it's safe to say they are just "holding up" their end of the deal.

---

Ah, I thought you were referring to the promises they made about the relic specifically.

I didn't know that they specifically stated that Accuracy would no longer be on future weapons. What was the reason for the decision?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

I didn't know that they specifically stated that Accuracy would no longer be on future weapons. What was the reason for the decision?

---

Quote:

---

In regards to weapons, we removed accuracy from the weapons for all jobs. We did this to eliminate situations where you couldn't use a new weapon with a high item level because it didn't have accuracy on it. We've made adjustments to the required accuracy, so even without accuracy on weapons it should be easier to land hits on enemies.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3128503

---

So, it basically just eliminates those times where you couldn't equip a better weapon because of accuracy loss. Having too much accuracy doesn't prevent you from doing anything, but that too, people generally don't want 1000 accuracy, just the minimum you need with everything else going to valuable stats, so it works in that case too. It really is one of the smarter design choices they made.

Edit: I guess they didn't specifically state all future weapons would be without accuracy, so they left themselves a little wiggle room in case they change their mind. "Until proven otherwise" lol

Traditionally the first 'turn' of a new raid set has a similar or identical acc cap as the last turn of the previous, so there is no gap to bridge if done right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Februs

There is a 5 item level difference, but it's not really a huge difference all things considered. Further, that Det/Crit mix does, in my opinion, put the ilvl 205 Sword of the Heavens above the ilvl 210 Relic.

---

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't the +1 Weapon Damage, +3 Str, +2 Crit, and +73 Skill Speed you get from the i210 Relic superior than the +66 Det you get from Thordan?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galactimus

Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't the +1 Weapon Damage, +3 Str, +2 Crit, and +73 Skill Speed you get from the i210 Relic superior than the +66 Det you get from Thordan?

---

In regards to +1 Weapon dmg, +3 Str, and +2 Crit, it's difficult to say. After 3.0 they changed the way Det scales with Str. I'm not personally aware of the new numbers, so it's hard for me to say one way or another how the Det on the Thordan weapons compare to the Relic. I've been told that Crit, technically, scales better for Pld's, but it's still an RnG based Stat that accounts (so I've been told) for roughly 5% chance of critical dmg at base. With good scaling, Crit provides a decent Dps increase, but I don't think it will be by a huge difference, especially given Pld's Dps kit. Regardless, no one has shown any solid data for it yet. Honestly though, it's not the Str and Crit that I'm concerned with (or why I prefer the Thordan Ex weapon). The main problem that I have with it is the +73 increase in Skill Speed.

Unfortunately, Pld's have absolutely no means of restoring Tp besides simply not attacking. They can buy themselves some time with Clemency and Flash casts, but for each cast of those two moves they are effectively dealing 0 Dmg. In fights with 100% (or near enough to 100%) up-time on the boss, a Pld can burn their Tp to empty in roughly 3 minutes, give or take a minute. Increasing Skill Speed only makes this easier, and therefore worse. Once a Pld's Tp is empty, they can do nothing but use attacks as they proc (which is a delayed response and therefore a decrease in Dps/enmity), or spam Flash/Clemency to try to maintain enmity while their Tp bar slowly recharges (which is also a decrease in Dps). You can sabotage your own Skill Speed by simply not executing attacks at the speed at which they become available, but if you do that then what's the point of having the extra Skill Speed? It does nothing for your Auto-attack either, so there's no benefit even when running in the OT position and utilizing SwO. As things are, increasing Skill Speed on any weapon for Pld's only makes one of the most glaring flaws with the Pld kit worse. So, it's not preferable to practically any other stat