"Ser" and female Knights

Are there instances in 3.0 when female knights are referred to Ser again? Why isn't Heustienne not referred to as "ser" anymore after the 50 DRG quests?

Unfading Skies level 40 DRG Job quest:
"After meeting with Ser Heustienne of Ishgard...."

Sky's the Limit level 50 DRG Job quest
"...Shortly thereafter, Ser Alberic arrives in the company of another dragoon, who introduces herself as Heustienne, one of your instructors during your trials..."

In the journal, she doesn't have Ser attached anymore. Why is that?

Couldn't really say. Perhaps because you've fully become the Azure Dragoon in that time, and now honorifics for other Dragoons are mostly meaningless? At least, that's my take on it.

I would guess that this particular case is because of the context--in the first, she appeared as one of our instructors, while in the HW quests, the role is flipped and instead she is asking us to teach her. Meanwhile, Alberic is still a mentor to us despite that he has no more actual dragoon techniques left to teach us.

Well, it's could be a couple of things. First might be familiarity. Honorifics tend to fade when people get close. Second could be because both you, and ser Alberic, are speaking from above her station. The WoL is an azure dragoon that was recognized by the eye, so, despite not being part of the Ishgard standing army, he is still considered at the pinnacle of the Dragoon order. Sometimes people don't use honorifics when addressing someone beneath their station. Lastly, it could be a bit of an oversight caused by plot related events.

Spoilers: In the Drgoon questline

Heustienne ends up being skyjacked by a dragon and, essentially, kidnapped. While in captivity, she is forced to drink blood of a Dragon. During this time she is considered MIA, but presumed dead, but if she was ever found out she would have been excommunicate her from the Dragoon order and likely killed by the inquisition. Knowing this, she essentially excommunicates herself.

It's possible that because of these events, she is no longer referred to as "ser," and her knighthood is revoked... though, considering the only parties involved who knew about the truth of these events were the WoL, Ser Alberic, and Heustienne's father... It seems a little extreme that they would no longer use her honorific, unless she herself discouraged them from using it. She seems to be her own worse critic, so that's also possible, but I don't recall there being any evidence of it in cutscenes...

I recall other female knights being referred to as "Ser" throughout Heavensward; Heustienne is most likely just a special case due to the questline.

When she effectivly faked her death to avoid the inquisition and keep her father from getting excommunicated she also in the prosses renounced her Knighthood.

So she would no longer be refused to as Ser as she is no longer a knight.

My question is, The title for a knight IRL is "Sir" is it not? If so then why use "Ser" in game?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

My question is, The title for a knight IRL is "Sir" is it not? If so then why use "Ser" in game?

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"Ser" is just an archaic alternate spelling of "Sir," used to sell the idea of Eorzea being old-timey just like the rest of the baroque English script.

The appropriate female equivalent would be "Dame," but lots of fictional works don't bother with that.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

"Ser" is just an archaic alternate spelling of "Sir," used to sell the idea of Eorzea being old-timey just like the rest of the baroque English script.

The appropriate female equivalent would be "Dame," but lots of fictional works don't bother with that.

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Actually Ser is not English at all, it is Italian and was used by notaries & lawyers with an equivalence to Sir in English. It would never be used in England at all. A lot of people think it is to do with gender but that's a modern Internet concept. Simply put, women could never (and technically still can never) use the Sir/Ser honorific.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I recall other female knights being referred to as "Ser" throughout Heavensward; Heustienne is most likely just a special case due to the questline.

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Except she loses her title as soon as you meet her again in 3.0 She's not in the process until the second half of the quests.

Edit: Even so, the item you give to the Knights of her armor refers to her as Ser Heustienne in the flavor text.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Actually Ser is not English at all, it is Italian and was used by notaries & lawyers with an equivalence to Sir in English. It would never be used in England at all. A lot of people think it is to do with gender but that's a modern Internet concept. Simply put, women could never (and technically still can never) use the Sir/Ser honorific.

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Took a little bit of research but you're right. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Took a little bit of research but you're right. My bad.

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Not your bad at all, the Internet's bad. All it takes is someone to make an assumption based on Song of Ice & Fire (which is how this one started) or similar and it ends up getting repeated until it is 'fact'.

Even reputable websites will tell you Ser is a female or 'genderqueer' version of Sir used since Mediaeval times in England. Complete fabrication but it takes a lot of delving to find the truth, as you discovered! =)

It doesn't change the fact that it's a fictional world with fictional rules around fictional honorifics. :P

SE decided on "ser" for the hell of it. That's the only reason.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Actually Ser is not English at all, it is Italian and was used by notaries & lawyers with an equivalence to Sir in English. It would never be used in England at all. A lot of people think it is to do with gender but that's a modern Internet concept. Simply put, women could never (and technically still can never) use the Sir/Ser honorific.

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I'm pretty sure it's also a conjugation in Spanish and French as well. I'm really rusty on my French, but I'm almost positive it has a French form. All of the "romantic languages" find their roots in Latin, as does the verb "ser," so they should all have a form of it. I just don't recall what they all are. Given that English derives from Saxon (before borrowing a lot from Latin and later French), Ser does not have any linguistic relation. Still, you are most certainly correct. I am impressed you pointed it out.

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Originally Posted by Velox

It doesn't change the fact that it's a fictional world with fictional rules around fictional honorifics. :P

SE decided on "ser" for the hell of it. That's the only reason.

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That is, unless it was an error of translation or something. Your point actually makes me curious if they use the same honorifics in the original Japanese text, or if they follow their own honorifics, which would not translate very well to English...It would be an interesting discrepancy between the two versions if there was a difference though. Not at all relevant to the content, mind you, but interesting, especially if you have any inclinations towards linguistics.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I'm pretty sure it's also a conjugation in Spanish and French as well. I'm really rusty on my French, but I'm almost positive it has a French form. All of the "romantic languages" find their roots in Latin, <snip>, Ser does not have any linguistic relation. Still, you are most certainly correct. I am impressed you pointed it out.

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Ser is a verb in Spanish - to be/have (permanent status). For example, you would say Soy Ingles - I am English, rather than use Tener (to be/have - impermanent) which is used thusly Tengo hambre - I am hungry.

Ser in the honourific is not related to Ser the verb. It's, to all intents and purposes, just the Italian way of saying Esquire as it's aimed at notaries and lawyers. In America I know many lawyers still use Esquire as an honourific whereas it has pretty much died out in the UK. Possibly it remains in the USA due to a large Italian diaspora.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

In America I know many lawyers still use Esquire as an honourific whereas it has pretty much died out in the UK. Possibly it remains in the USA due to a large Italian diaspora.

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Been a while, but I also seem to recall that many lawyers and the like use Esquire because unlike Doctor or certain acronyms, Esquire doesn't have any governing laws regarding it's use. It makes you sound special and significant, but anyone can use it.

But to the topic of the thread, the feminine use of the title "Sir" in modern society, when not used in reference to a knighthood, is a pointed ungendering of the person. You refer to a female superior as "Sir" rather than "Ma'am" because you are giving due respect to their position, rather than the person themselves. The same may or may not apply to female knights in this setting ((Which is far from a sexually equal setting, but the point may be that they give women who fight the masculine title because they wish to ignore considerations of gender in their active fighting force. Our modern Sirs and Dames aren't necessarily expected to fight, and when they were, we weren't expecting women to fight, correct?))

Ultimately, the point is that "ser" is derived from the Italian "messere," or mister / master. It was used primarily in and around Florence (hence its gratuitous use in Ezio's Assassin's Creed games). It's intended to be used exclusively for males.

However, the popularity of various pieces of media (Game of Thrones and, to the gaming circle, Dragon Age) has seen the "ser" title be used outside of the Italian context as a generic, gender-neutral title for knights. SE probably just carried it over as an easy way to recognize when the person someone's talking about is a knight - hence, "Ser Heusteinne."

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Ser is a verb in Spanish - to be/have (permanent status). For example, you would say Soy Ingles - I am English, rather than use Tener (to be/have - impermanent) which is used thusly Tengo hambre - I am hungry.

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I am aware.That would be why I specified "conjugation," as in a conjugated verb. I just didn't want to embarrass myself by trying to recall what the exact forms of the verb, since I'm am ridiculously rusty in both French and Spanish (though, I think the French form is also to be/have... Kinda makes me wish I kept up with it).

In any case, I was only pointing out that all three languages do derive from Latin, and that includes the traditional use of Ser in Italian, which derives from messer or messere which, in French, would be more commonly known as monsieur or sieur, which would derive from the Latin Sieur or more commonly senior. Culturally, the words developed different meanings (with Italian taking the most formal, as I can't off the top of my head, think of any term that translates to esquire in French or Spanish....) when they all split from their root, but they all come from the same place and are respectful ways of referring to an elder or superior.

Februs -

Indeed, I apologise if I came off snooty in my reply. I was trying to agree with you but my train of thought often wanders, especially if I have to shoehorn an answer into the appalling character limit. It's even worse on a mobile as no editing is allowed and every time I use preview it screws with the letters! I think you & Cilia have hit the nail on the head with the Latin diminutive honourific origin (Signore/Señor etc). =}

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Februs -

Indeed, I apologise if I came off snooty in my reply. I was trying to agree with you but my train of thought often wanders, especially if I have to shoehorn an answer into the appalling character limit. It's even worse on a mobile as no editing is allowed and every time I use preview it screws with the letters! I think you & Cilia have hit the nail on the head with the Latin diminutive honourific origin (Signore/Señor etc). =}

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Not at all! I was actually looking forward to your response. You seem to have great insight. Your explanation of the Spanish verb was very good. I also agree with your account of fantasy and pop-culture references becoming misguided facts. The only question I'd have in this case is if it was something that was actually written into the script in the original Japanese, or if someone working on the translation took the liberty or making a change. I apologize if I came off snooty, myself.

I also sympathize with the mobile responses. I've seen posts turn out radically different than what the poster intended. Your responses have been quite solid in comparison to some of the one's I've had to try and translate in other corners of the forums.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

Except she loses her title as soon as you meet her again in 3.0 She's not in the process until the second half of the quests.

Edit: Even so, the item you give to the Knights of her armor refers to her as Ser Heustienne in the flavor text.

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The etymology portions are interesting but that's not quite what I'm asking about XD

So the question is "Why does flavor text omit "Ser" from Heustienne?"

... no special reason. They just do. Most people don't pay attention to flavor text anyway, and not using honorifics with people you're familiar with is a facet of most cultures.

Yet these things aren't just flavor text. They're in quest dialogue. They're in quest journals. Sometimes Alberic is referred to as Ser and other times, like in the journals, he is Ser Alberic. I don't know if she has the title, but Lucia never has it either. Yet BEFORE 3.0, Heustienne had it. Suddenly at 3.0 she doesn't get it. She doesn't even face the issues of her title being up in the air until around level 54 or 56 quest.