Hello!
I'm maining a WHM and I thought about getting into tanking since I usually do that in other MMOs as well (main is healer, alt is tank or vice versa).
Now, I really like the idea of the Paladin but I'm afraid if will be too boring. I'm not sure why. It feels a bit mushy if that's the right word. I never feel like I'm in control (level 47 or 46 or something like that). Obviously, more so in low level dungeons. One I have shield oath, it's fine. Also related to my shitty gear, I'd assume. Probably need to go shopping.
But I hear so many bad things about the Paladin. How he's useless and everything. But I won't see savage any time soon with the PLD anyway and DF is taking what it's going to get so I'm sure that's not a problem for me at the moment as long as it's not my main.
I also hear a lot that the PLD is boring but I've never heard a proper explanation on why it's a boring job. Like, are people just not "getting it" and expect something from the job it isn't? Or do they have a point and the PLD is objectively boring?
The other option is the DRK which sounds like fun but I'm afraid I'll end up feeling like I'm just spamming buttons and not have that feeling of being that awesome tank that's just standing there like a wall no matter what. DRK also sounds interesting but I've heard he's very button mashy after 50 and I'm afraid I'll feel more like "spamming buttons to save my life" instead of actually being that brick wall the boss runs into. Also, the Paladin in general sounds more like my thing.
I do feel less mushy with my DRK but he's level 32 and I actually went shopping for him.
The third option is to not tank at all. Maybe tanking in FFXIV is just not my thing. I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just not comfortable with tanking and the FFXIV engine (other games feel a lot more responsive but that might just be because I'm more used to those games). I hope that changes. Maybe somebody here went through the same thing and got used to it?
Also, that pushing for DPS. It's already weird on my WHM but it's less of a hassle there. Having to care about STR instead of VIT seems off. I know I'd probably have to care about accuracy for my WHM in raids but nobody complained yet (no alexander S yet).
It just seems so off...
I hope this wasn't too ranty. Thanks.
PLD or DRK or no tanking at all?
Printable View
-
11-22-2015, 05:42 AMAsyxPLD or DRK or no tanking at all?
-
11-22-2015, 06:00 AMshao32
paladin now is not boring, people say that because they thing dps is = fun, and paladin dealt the lowest dps, dark knight is a job you need control you darkside and you mp, for the inexpert eye is a smashing buttons job, for the expert eye is a job you need combine you skills with dark arts to make it better.
paladin is not useless is the meta how make the paladin useless, yeah the class need some ajustment but nothing extrem.
tanks have a damage formula change in 3.2, meaby this means the end of stack str insteand of vit, how knows, devs release the info soon i hope.
so all tank jobs have multiple combos and are fun to play, paladins have instan defensives, dark knights have many combinations but is easy.
i say you level the tanks jobs you want to try and wait to 3.2 to say if you become one or dont tank at all, make you own jugment all clases change much if you are in max level. -
11-22-2015, 06:42 AMJpec07
Hi OP! Welcome to the Wonderful World of Tanking!
It can be a bit daunting at times. PLD right now definitely takes a lot more work to hold enmity than the other tanks. Flash, while incredibly potent in 1-35 content, loses quite a bit of its comparative potency, and can make it feel like you're having to do nothing but spam it in between combos. You're also going to have to switch targets a lot with your Rage of Halone (RoH) combo. I usually like to tab between my opponents to make sure I'm not in danger of losing any of them, and cycle appropriately (just make sure you go back to the one the DPS are hitting to make sure you're not losing it, too). Using Fight or Flight (FoF) on your Circle of Scorn (CoS) will also help, but that only applies 50+.
DRK definitely has a lot more control. The job natively puts out a lot more enmity than PLD, and so will make it easier for you to hold hate. It is a little squishier, because the PLD shield provides a nice bit of mitigation against most trash mobs, but in general should be just about as sturdy (don't be afraid to use your CDs - and if you find yourself taking too much damage, just pull smaller). I personally enjoy DRK more, because the gameplay is much more engaging, and requires so much more effort to do right.
Also, regarding the Str > Vit piece - ignore it. This only applies to endgame raiding, so Alexander Savage, Thordan Extreme, and I guess maybe the hard Diadem mobs? But for the overwhelming majority of content in this game, Vit and Fending Gear are going to help you survive much better than Str and Slaying gear. And while leveling, focus more of your gearing energy on Physical and Magical defense, as those two comprise the lion's share of your passive damage mitigation.
My advice to you would be to stick with it, and if PLD doesn't give you enough control, try bringing up your DRK to at least 50. Run dungeons. Go with friends if it makes you feel more comfortable. But do what you can to learn the idiosyncrasies of the job. If at 50 you decide it isn't for you, then let it go - no one can say at that point that you didn't try. :)
Paladin right now is boring, DPS aside. It is extremely boring. It is 100% the most mundane job in the game. There's no variety. There's nothing unique. You manage your cooldowns, you use your combos, you maintain your DoTs, and that's it. Both DRK and WAR have much more variety to the gameplay, and require a bit more thought for actions used (rather than just RoH it to death).Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
-
11-22-2015, 07:36 AMReynhartIt's not that "DPS is fun" but "complexity is fun". PLD is very bland in its gameplay. The good part is that its easy to understand and use efficiently, the bad part is that you'll be doing the same thing over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
People really need to stop believing that all we want is more DPS... -
11-22-2015, 07:45 AMFebrusPld is the Tank that is most dependent on item level and Shield Oath to boost their enmity generation. The reason is, honestly, a bit of an oversight on SE's part, but that's a topic for another thread. The point is that Pld's have the least tools at their disposal to hold threat. Flash deals 0 dmg (despite scaling with Str stat), and RoH generates less threat then Butchers Block (War) and Power Slash (Drk). They're not a "one and done" tank that can pop an Overpower or two and never worry about losing aggro. So, any discrepancy between a Pld's item level and the rest of the party (especially AoE Dps who are good at their rotation), is far more noticeable than the other two Tanks. It's for this reason that a lot of people actually consider Pld to be the hardest of the three tanks to use when it comes to Mob tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
IF you chose to go with Pld, you have to be committed to ensuring that you have your Pld outfitted appropriately at all times, and be extra vigilant when Mob tanking, using all of your tools (including alternating shield swipes and RoH combos throughout your targets) to maintain aggro. Pld requires a broader focus than the other two tanks to be used efficiently.
I actually find Pld's to be one of the most fun out of the three tanks, but it depends on what you're doing. People find Pld's boring, usually, for one of these reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
- 1-2-3 Tanking
Pre lvl 50, Pld's only had one combo. So, it was relatively simple and boring to hold boss aggro and manage your Cd's (keep in mind this is not the case for mob tanking, as Pld's have to rotate targets to keep high enmity efficiently). Post 3.0, this is no longer the case, and Pld's now have 3 combos to work with. The stigma, however, has stayed with them.
- The Pld rotation is extremely precise.
Even 3.0, a Pld's rotation requires very precise use of their Cd's and the appropriate combo at the appropriate time. It's one of the reasons they were so popular as Main Tanks in the Coil days. They have, by far, the most controlled rotations out of the three tanks, and a coordinated Raid group could completely plan an entire encounter with a Pld and typically have no surprises. There is almost nothing random about it (aside from oh S*** moments). By comparison, Warriors and Dark Knights have an air of spontaneous improvisation. A lot of people find that kind of tanking to be more entertaining, since it leaves them more vulnerable to bigger dips in their Hp
- Pld Dps is lower
This is, partly, SE's fault. Pld's always had lower Dps than Warriors, but it wasn't nearly as big a deal until 3.0 rolled out. SE seems to have decided that "Difficult" is synonymous with "Dps Checks." So, since 3.0, a large portion of the fights require high Dps outputs to clear them but far less mechanics than what were traditionally found in the Coil fights. Because of this, Pld's have been landed with a huge stigma concerning their dps output and are often frowned at in Raids (savage only).
The other issue is one of Ego. A lot of players seem to measure their penis size by the amount of Dps they are dealing, and instantly shun the Pld and call it boring because it's not capable of outputting the same Dps as a Warrior.
Personally, I do not suffer from this deficiency, so I have no issues with Pld dps output as it is. Given that Pld's require more focus to maintain mob enmity, I actually find them more enjoyable to play in dungeons than Drk's and War's (which are essentially like tanking on easy mode for me). I also enjoy the precision of the job. Perfectly balancing my DoTs, combos, and ensuring all of my CD's are synced correctly is nice if you have a slightly obsessive compulsive streak in you... but I guess that's trading one deficiency for another... - 1-2-3 Tanking
-
11-22-2015, 08:04 AMAsyx
Hmmm thanks for your answers. I think I'm gonna try to get both to 60 before 3.2. Probably starting with the DRK first. Even though the PLD sounds more like what I usually enjoy, it still feels weird and I feel less comfortable with the job which confuses me an awful lot since I've been tanking in other games as well and even did some things that were stressful. And I don't have that with the DRK. The only reason I can see for that is that I'm just not familiar enough with how the mobs behave (I'm more used to the WoW instant feedback kind of thing. Everything seems to be a bit delayed in FFXIV). Well, we'll see with what I'll end up. Probably not going to change my main job, though, which is something I usually struggle with.
Thanks guys. Keep the answers coming, though, my decision is not set in stone :D -
11-22-2015, 09:21 AMArdorGreyAmazing that you brag about how your ego isn't as big as others while you spout stuff like this. Every tank has to use planned CDs in raiding. War and Drk do NOT have room to "improvise" in savage raiding. This fallacy popped up on here a while ago and apparently it's starting to spread. All this statement proves is your ignorance of the other two classes and how they perform in savage. It's one giant humblebrag that has the audacity to call out others as egotistical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Anyway TC PLD suffers in dungeon runs because while their single target rotations ouput slightly less damage than the other two tanks, they have no reliable aoe dps. They're like what ninja are to dps classes. Still good in their own way but you might wince a little if you see one in a dungeon run, even if they're a great player that stomps bosses.
Drk has the most ogcd attacks so they feel somewhat like a dps in that they're constantly attacking I wouldn't call them "button mashey" though. like every other class, there's still a logical rotation to follow if you want to perform well.
I also noticed you didn't mention warrior. They're a tank class too. ^^ A lot of people seem to write them off because for some reason using an axe is a deal breaker instead of ZOMGZ SWORDZ, but the people I know that originally put off leveling them but later got around to it normally find the class very fun. You also have a lot of OGCDs, but they're mainly buffs of defensive cd's that aren't necessarily as strong as paladins, but have shorter timers so you can use them more often. They're all about hulking up, both offensively and defensively.
All that said, Paladins are generally the easiest tank to pick up and play for most people, and if you want your tank class to be more of an entertaining side diversion instead of your main, it probably isn't a bad call. Most of the aggro complaints about pld come from people tunnel visioning single targets or stacking vit to high heaven while forgetting str governs their aggro generation. Use a combination of the two and you should be fine, 1k hp is not going to make or break whether you survive unless your healer doesn't know how to heal, but that extra enmity will be very noticeable. -
11-22-2015, 10:26 AMAsyxI know. Everything I've heard about the WAR didn't really seem all that fun. I don't know why. Just how people described the class left me cold which usually means that I won't enjoy it. Since I'd have to level WAR anyway for cross class skills, I didn't ask about it because I need to play it no matter which tank I decide to go for.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
-
11-22-2015, 01:24 PMFebrusI did not intend to brag about anything, nor was I even commenting on the Warrior/Dark Knight cool downs being unplanned in Raids.When it comes to Savage Raids, there is no improvisation (for any jobs, not just tanks). I am very well aware of this. However, back in the coil days, a Pld had the most reliable rotation for ensuring the appropriate buffs were up at precisely the right time. They only had one combo. Unlike War's, who had the additional challenge of keeping up storms eye/path/and fracture on top of managing their Wrath stacks and using the right CD at the right time, Pld's simply had to push one button (maybe two for the bigger hits) at the right time and leave the rest to the healers. They didn't even have to manage DoT's. By comparison, their rotation was easier to manage and plan around, especially in regards to healing. In some cases this attitude has persisted.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdorGrey
In terms of what kind of Cd's they have at their disposal, again, I never meant to imply that Drks and Wars somehow fly by the seat of their pants in raids. I was actually referring more to mob pulls. However, I suppose this works either way. Notice that I was referring to the dips in Hp? I didn't mean that War's literally improvise their entire tanking method. I said they have an "air of spontaneous improvisation." I realize that my wording my have been a bit misleading, but I was referring to the fact that Wars take bigger hits (dmg) than Pld's. Their Hp fluctuates more, and they can self-heal massive amounts of hp without healers depending on what CD's they have available. In a lot of cases (not so much in raids) they don't even need to rely on a healer being there. They can handle themselves. In that regard, a Warrior has much more wiggle room to "improvise" than a Pld, who will, most certainly, die in short order if they don't have a healer looking after them (Clemency helps, but you only get 2 casts, 3 with stretch mp regen, and that's not enough to allow a Pld to improvise if, say, the healer bites it).
In any case, my comment on people having an egotistical approach to Warrior tanking versus Paladin tanking was strictly referring to the general attitude concerning Tank Dps. I don't know about your server. Maybe you come from the mystical land of exceptions, but the general chatter among most of the FFXIV community, including right here on the forums, props War up to be the "best" tank and required for Raid meta, mostly because of their high Dps output and ability to self-heal. It's gotten to the point where any discussions concerning "fixing" or "balancing" the other two tanks eventually devolves at some point into a "Moar Dps!" debate, because everyone wants the bigger stick. I was simply pointing this out.
Very good of you to misunderstand and assume that I have no idea how to use any of the 3 Tanks, though. Cheers. -
11-22-2015, 04:07 PMZaranghae
why no love for WAR, it's my fav tank class atm because of deliverance switching :(
-
11-22-2015, 04:31 PMSyzygianWat. You can't turn your head in here without whacking your nose on somebody's love for WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaranghae
-
11-22-2015, 05:52 PMLaurima
Paladin is good fun with practise, it's not as easy with managing adds and aggro as say DRK is, but it's far from impossible, Also side note, PLD are used in Savage, my statics MT is a PLD.
WAR is a bit better, but it's a lot more involved if you really want to get the best from it I've found :p
I have a DRK at 33 and IMO I've found it to be pretty boring by comparision to PLD at the same level, spam unleash for mobs, MP gets low, hit syphon thingy rinse repeat -_- -
11-22-2015, 09:11 PMFreyyyAll jobs are boring at level 33. DRK becomes awesome and very far from boring post 45-50. But it's a matter of taste. Oh and also, PLD at level 33 is pretty much spam flash, MP gets low, hit riot blade rinse repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurima
-
11-25-2015, 03:22 AMvaitepihaRemember in the early days of FF14 ARR, all the discuss about the war in the first turn of Bahamut coil. It was "Pally only".Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
You can bet on the come back of the palladin in the 4.0. -
11-25-2015, 04:55 AMCallidusThis covers the gamut from fact, to opinion, to altogether wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
"You manage your cooldowns, you use your combos, you maintain your DoTs, and that's it." While this is fairly factual, you just described most of the jobs in the game. That would be like me saying "all you do is press buttons, so jobX is boring." If you chose to ignore the details and nuances, you can make just about anything sound lame.
Saying the job is boring, mundane, not unique, and has no variety is an opinion. I respect your opinion, but stating your opinion as if it were fact is a disservice to OP looking for advice. Many people, myself included, find PLD enjoyable to play. And that, too, is an opinion.
Finally, if you're just RoHing things to death you're doing it wrong. Once you get 60 and some decent gear, RoH should be your least used combo. We're not in 2.x anymore.
OP: You said you're not worried about Savage on your tank. PLD is just fine for all other content. With current gear, PLD is even technically viable (though not ideal) for Savage. Pick the job you enjoy, whichever one that might be. I'm sure if you invest some time and energy into any one of the tank classes, you'll find it an enjoyable change of pace from healing. -
11-25-2015, 05:56 AMAlexiIvaniskavich
My recommendation OP is to get them all up to or around 50. Not only will doing this give you insight into the other tank classes, but it can also broaden your mind about the tank class you choose and what you can do with it. Each class has something to offer, but none of these classes should be judged on their "pre-50" tool kit. IMO paladin gets significantly more enjoyable at 50+ in comparison to the class sub 40.
As far as content viability is concerned, to date every tank class has cleared all existing content. Every tank class has the ability to hold aggro and survive every encounter in the game. There are differences between each tank class on these subjects, but they each have these capabilites.
If you get each class to 50, you may find there is one specific tank you love, and this is the one you should go with. If you find that you love them all equally, but in different ways.... welcome to my world. -
11-28-2015, 11:36 AMIndigoHawkThis is mostly wrong. Tanks automatically get phys/mag defense from better tank gear so the only "focus" is don't be undergeared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Tanks hold aggro easier with more str. Flash gets stronger with too.
Back in 2.0 tanks often went vit. Now it's better for tanks to put their points into str and take 2-3 slaying accessories with the others fending.
Try to balance your gear for equal str/vit, then adjust from there based on how you feel about survivability and aggro. -
11-28-2015, 11:02 PMAlisane
Hi OP! I am a SCH main, PLD secondary so hopefully I can provide some helpful insight.
I like PLD because it is the "party support" tank class. I have also leveled DRK to 60 and play it for roulettes sometimes, but PLD feels much more fluid to me. I main SCH so I wanted something with a little less micromanagement while tanking. If you are someone who likes to max DPS while healing, you may prefer DRK. The big thing that makes me enjoy PLD over DRK is that I always find myself missing my "party" skills on DRK. Divine Veil, Cover and Stoneskin are great utility skills. PLD struggles a bit more with enmity than the others so that is something you will have to be watching as well.
I also like the "sword and board" look more, personally. It gets a LOT more interesting at 60 since you end up with two additional combo pathways. BUT I am obviously biased since I prefer PLD! The best thing you can do is level both to 60 and see which feels better to you. Good luck! -
11-30-2015, 08:31 AMxvshanevxNo people are "getting it" and know what to do with it. The class really isn't "boring" anymore. It has grown past the "1, 2, 3, repeat" phase of its life. Even as a WAR main, I can tell you that PLD is a lot of fun right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
I believe a lot of thier mitigation comes in forms of parry, evade, and magical damage debuffing, so when running dungeons you might feel a bit softer than a PLD. I don't play DRK, so this is just assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
The engine, as I'm sure you've seen, is much slower in this game; plus the agro system is a bit more finicky. Once you know what to do, you might appreciate it a bit more :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
First of, for progression raiding, DPS was needed to clear content, which is why so many players emphasized it. Secondly, you don't have to start STR, you can go VIT until you feel comfortable. Also, the more STR you have (i.e. the more damage) the easier it is to hold aggro. Finally, ask your healers how much they can handle. If they are confident, then you can run full STR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asyx
-
11-30-2015, 05:23 PMReynhartWAR came back in 2.1...Quote:
Originally Posted by vaitepiha
-
11-30-2015, 07:05 PMIsiusRight. While Pld gets a burnt, crumb of a doggy treat in 3.1 to try, and satisfy Plds to shut up. At this point, I see no reason to play the other tanks in raid content in general, and just go double warrior in 3.2. Unless these "Swiping Changes" in 3.2 to tanks dps calculations actually do anything...but even then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Pld will always be a gimped tank compared to the other two tanks as long as it's dps is behind as much as it is, and it's defense will never make up for it unless it is the only tank that can survive, while the other tank just outright die. Drk atm is decent, it does a little more dps as mt, than a War, but also takes more risk to do it. But with the supposely heavier physical dmg in mind for 3.2 raids. Another War would be a better tank choice over Drk, and if there is magic dmg, normally raid aoe, Mnk can easily comeback, and use Dragon Kick like it always done in 2.x content. So imo, I feel like a good portion of Drks will also take the bench with Plds in 3.2 raids at least how things stand now.
@OP I would just pick up a tank you like atm to play, but I wouldn't focus too hard on it either, or use it to raid with, since the tank meta is messed up in HW. But in general content either tank is fine to play. Personally I like Pld. -
12-01-2015, 03:21 AMMaero
Pld needs tweaks is all, but by no means is considered horrible.
It is true that so many are now focused on tank doing dps which may lie the problem for some as PLD is rather behind DK and War.
Warrior is currently the best tank class out there currently in my opinion.